Developer choice for fine grain - Ilford film

[alecu]

I have some FP4 Plus (iso 125), Pan F Plus (iso 50) and Delta-100 Professional

(iso 100) Ilford B&W 120 negs I want to develop to obtain the finest grain

possible. The results I got with some R09 developer I had are not quite

satisfying in terms of grain (great shadow detail, contrast and sharpness). I

could use a recomandation for a developer to get the fines grain possible. Thanks!

 

ps: all negs go into a CoolScan 8000 ED, so i do my grain analysis are on 100%

crops of 8900x8900px 16bit tiffs.

[larrydressler]

D-76 straight or Microdol-X

 

Larry

[Fotohuis RoVo]

For the finest grain possible your choice should be an ultra fine grain depth developer:

Microdol-X, Perceptol, CG512/Rollei Low Speed. R09 is a high acutance para-amino phenol developer, very sharp, easy in use but pronounced grain and in fact suitable for classical medium and slow speed B&W films like FP4+, PANF.

 

All mentioned ultra fine grain developers have less sharpness and will introduce speed loss of your films for about one F-stop.

CG512 is an Udo Raffay reference developer on 24 degrees C with still a pretty good compromise in sharpness.

[ronald_moravec1]

D67 or ID 11 undiluted. These are virtually the same developer functionally . Microdol X or Perceptol will have a touch less grain and you will lose one stop film speed. I recommend one of the first two. Store D76 in small full glass bottles and use one shot. If air gets to it, you get inconsistent results.

[alecu]

Wow, straight fast answers, thanks guys.

 

I still have to do some prints to see if the grain I get in my scans will be on a 40x40cm or 75x75cm print and after that, I'll make my choice of developers. The R09 IS wonderfull with this single disadvantage. It may very well be imposible to get everything I need from one developer so I'll have to judge for myself which characteristics I can do without.

[Fotohuis RoVo]

You could consider Rodinal instead of R09 which will give slightly less grain.

 

Here our test: Rodinal versus Fomadon R09. Our test film APX100 (new) / Rollei Retro 100.

35mm format is of course much more critical in choosing a developer.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/rodinal/discuss/72157601393747142/

[alecu]

Great test, Robert, unfortunately, where I live it's pretty hard to get my hands on ANY developer I need/want. More often I get stuff I need overseas, than localy, so, I'll have to think about this long and hard (and read a lot of reviews, of course)

[willscarlett]

So if developers like Microdol-X and Perceptol cause a film speed loss of one stop, should

you overexpose one stop to make up for that?

[frank.schifano]

Yes, and that's the reason I don't use them. The grain advantage is not great enough to offset the loss of film speed for me. With small format films, I like to shoot hand held so you want every last bit of speed you can get. With larger formats, it's not an issue because enlargement factors are much smaller.

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Depends on your camera. In a Leica M system it's not a problem to shoot a nominal iso 100 film on E.I. 50 handheld. Even an iso 25 film is not an issue. Apertures up from 1,0 to 2,8 are available and a shutter speed around 1/15 S is not a problem at all, a bit experienced 1/8 S is possible without blurr.

But indeed on a regular 35mm SLR the problem is there. 1/60 - 1/125 S.

 

@Alecu: Where are you situated?

 

Best regards,

 

Robert

[gnashings]

Another good thing about the Leica M system is how it provides you with the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound - not to mention rendering one super strong and bullet-proof.

When Jesus cured that lepper? Yep - that was a Leica too, just don`t tell anyone!

[chris_waller]

I would recommend Ilford Perceptol which is not only ultra fine grain but also renders highlight detail superbly.

[tripanfal]

"1/15 S is not a problem at all, a bit experienced 1/8 S is possible without blur"

 

Isn't 1/15 sec the same on my Spotmatic?

 

I need to know how anyone handholds 1/15 without blur.

 

I can pull it off if you only look at my contact sheets :)

[david j.lee]

yes, 1/15 is the same in a leica or in a pentax,but with the leica you don't have mirror

vibration, so it's easier to get away with shooting with slow speeds. also, leica lenses are

perfectly usable wide open, while other lenses only start getting good when closed 2 or 3

steps. a pentax lens i have comes to mind. it is f3.5 but it only gives you acceptable results

from f5.6.

[terry_m1]

Delta 100 processed in Microdol-X diluted 1:3 at 74-75 degrees for 17-18 minutes is glorious--try it! It's all I use month after month!

[spanky]

Grain shouldn't be too much of a problem since it appears you are shooting medium format. I shoot a lot of Ilford Pan F+ souped in Rodinal and print up to 16x20 with virtually invisable grain. Even medium speeds like fp4 and my left over Agfa APX 100 are almost grainless in Rodinal. So unless you are printing mural sized prints or are severly cropping, I don't see the point in using a fine grain developer for medium format negs.

[alecu]

Marc, this is an issue that's bothering me. I'll probably never go beyond 30x30inch prints (75x75cm), 15x15inch beeing the main size I'll use. I have prepared some crops and fullsize samples to print this week to see if the grain issue is worth bothering for.

 

@Robert: I'm from Timisoara, Romania and my main source of photo equipment and suplies is B&H and that's why I have to double and triple check what I want to get because the shipping costs are consideable for me.

 

Thanks all for your answers, I think I'm gonna get some Microdol anyway to test it along site the semi-HUGE stock of R09 I already have.

[bgelfand]

The larger the print the farther back people will stand to view it. At a greater distance, grain is not as apparent.

 

I assume you are shooting 6x6 negatives. 15"x15" would be a 6x enlargement. I think Rodinal would work very well with the PanF+ at that size.

 

Here are two photos I took using 35mm PanF+ developed in Rodinal 1:50. The scans are from 8x10 prints that are cropped. Both of these 35mm negative are greater than 6x enlargements. You can see the grain in the background. The prints were made on Ilford Multigrade RC with a Pearl finish.

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/3712100

http://www.photo.net/photo/3712092

[Fotohuis RoVo]

@Alecu: Romania, OK that's indeed often a problem to get supplies. More logical seems to me to order in Germany, the Netherlands or maybe the Czech Republic. Airpack enveloppe or basic Europe package (2 kg) will limit the shipping costs although outside the Euro zone you will always have a bank fee either.

I will give you some options from our Amaloco export partners in Germany and the Czech Republic:

 

http://www.phototec.de/catalog/index.php

 

http://www.fotoskoda.cz/default.asp?ids=356&idm=312&lang=eng

 

http://www.FotohuisRoVo.nl

[alecu]

Thank you Robert for these ideas. I'm going to Prague next month, I may search for FotoSkoda for some Rollei Pan 25 rolls. Will my R09 be "gentle" on those or should I try to get some Rodinal?

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Rollei PAN 25 is very good in the non-staining pyrocatechine developer from Amaloco AM50 (glas packing 60ml). The same type developer is available in a cheaper plastic (125ml) packing under AM20 which is also sold by FotoSkoda.

Recommended:

http://gallery.fotohuisrovo.nl/thumbnails.php?album=4

 

But also Rodinal 1+50 is a good combination for this film.

 

Take notice that Rodinal can be stored over a very long period of time but R09 is limited in storage time especially when the bottled has been opened. About 1 year is reported on several different users on the internet.

 

AM50 2-3 years, AM20 1 1/2 -2 years in a full bottle.

 

Enjoy Prague, beautifull city:

 

Best regards,

 

Robert

 

(Dutch Fotohuis company)

[profhlynnjones]

The best I have ever seen is UFG with UFG Replenisher. You gain speed and reduce grain, excellent sharpness. Microdol X works but with some speed loss.

 

Lynn

[alecu]

I did some test prints of some Delta 100 Pro developed in R09 12min, which scaned pretty grainy. I did some 100%crop tests (out of a 75x75cm @300dpi print) and some 30x30cm prints (resized to 30x30cm @300dpi on the PC). Both look excelent, the full size crop would support easely more enlargment, grain IS visible, but looks WONDERFULLY!

 

I could post a sample, but I'm afraid it's gonna be useless to photograph the print and post it here (I don't have a regular scanner)

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Delta 100 and a para-amino phenol developer is far from optimum.

Here some comparision of Delta 100 and RHS/AM74 and the Rollei PAN 25 in AM50.

RHS/AM74 is a semi-compensating developer based on phenidone/hydroquinon working around a pH of just under 10.

AM50 is a non-staining pyrocatechine developer working around a pH just over 12. You have to work with an accurate E.I. with this last developer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsuominen/208882321/

[radugrindei]

Got some Rollei PAN 25, Rollei Retro 100 and some Rodinal and AM50 from FotoSkoda, this weekend. Can't wait to shot some and develop! :p

 

Thank you, Robert, very-very much!