PCs and Apples?

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will) :), that PC users are more realists, down-to-earth, and see computers for what they are: machines to accomplish some sort of work, or provide entertainment, or education. Mac users seem to have their heads in the clouds, and attribute qualities to their Macs above and beyond their intended purpose, like a religious experience or something. If there's a cult mentality, then there must be a cult leader. And if there's a cult leader, there must be some sort of mind control occurring, you can be sure.

 

I see something similar with guitar companies. Some "musicians" are so into their preferred brand, especially Taylor or Martin, that many of them don't even play much music, just collect the guitars and fondle them, and sniff the soundholes. But what about music? (you can substitute "photography" to complete the analogy). Instead of the musician's hero being Bob Dylan, it's Bob Taylor instead.

[sam_thompson2]

Chevy and Toyota people do have their own fan sites and pay attention to rumors. There have been quite the buzz around the new Chevy Camaro and people do where T-shirts that say Toyota on them. Isn't that the whole purpose of Nascar?

 

"Fair enough Patrick, but why do knuckleheads mouth-off in PC threads that have nothing to do with Macs? I never see this happen in the Apple threads. Is it that Mac users are more passionate than PC users? Or is it that mind control exists in the Mac world?"

 

It does happen in Mac threads. The threads are usually deleted because the PC user calls the Mac users names. Little bit stronger than knuckleheads.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

"Any car will get you where you are going. So why do you like one over another?"

 

Bruce, I think there's something more with the Apple versus PC thing. Chevy guys and Ford guys (for example) all have a distrust and disloyalty towards their respective car makers and management even though they buy their preferred brand, and they just like the styling and performance of one marquee over the other.

 

With Apple, there seems to be an unrealistic adoration of the company itself, and folks seem to hang on every announcement and tidbit of news coming from the company. Car lovers don't really believe in the car companies the same way Mac users believe in Apple. I see Chevy guys abandoning GM all the time. I've seen Camaro lovers abandon GM when Ford would come out with a Mustang offering more performance. We know Apple users aren't the same. Even though Apples were slower at times, people rationalized that it didn't matter and kept buying them. This is different, more like cultish brainwashing.

[Brad_]

>>> Even though Apples were slower at times, people rationalized that it didn't matter and

kept buying them. T

 

It wasn't a rationalization. That implies that speed is sole important metric of a computer.

Kind of like people on photonet wanting the sharpest lens.

 

In the end it's really about the OS and innovations introduced.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Brad, I just meant that a computer's speed as only one aspect, and a very important one considering that speed translates into time saved (generally speaking) was completely rationalized by Apple users who were so seduced by looking at the beauty of the operating system on their monitors, and disregarding the bottom line of a computer as an appliance (like a toaster) for accomplishing a task.

 

Do Apple users get more work done?

[Brad_]

>>> Do Apple users get more work done?

 

 

Difficult to answer. Pretty easy to conclude valuable work time isn't spent dealing with

viruses...

 

>>> was completely rationalized by Apple users who were so seduced by looking at the

beauty of the operating system on their monitors, and disregarding the bottom line of a

computer as an appliance (like a toaster) for accomplishing a task.

 

Again, that's an extremely simplistic (and loaded) view. It's not the beauty, that's skin

deep, but the utility that's important. Again, speed is just one of many metrics that drive

productivity. People that focus solely on that arfe missing the big picture. But it's great for

bragging rights on internet forums - like this one. Kind of like how much horsepower a

particular car has. A huge consideration if you're in high school...

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

See, I've offended you Brad. I'm sorry.

 

Just to mention about viruses, I don't go online with my photography computer, and if I did, my cable company provides free virus software that renders viruses a total non-issue. And when I'm doing photography, I'm working with software programs and not so much the OS. I bet PS works the same in a Mac as a PC.

 

Oh yeah, I'm just a sophomore, you must be senior.

 

Seriously, I apologize if I offended you.

[eleary]

Ultimate answer...6 of 1, half dozen of another!

[ellis_vener_photography]

'To me, this seems to be the crux of whole matter: will your images be superior, in any way, if you used an Apple instead of a PC? "

 

No probably not, but I do find that working in Apple OS X is much morte pleasant and efficient process. But once you are in Adobe Photoshop it is sort like you are in Adobe's OS.

I do see far fewer questions regarding color management with OS X than with Windows or Vista - and while it is less arcane than implementing it in Windows I think that is more than likely due to operator error.

 

And I see less questions about driver incompatibilites too.

 

And there are the security/malware/adware differences between OS X and Microsoft's OS's.

 

BUT: If you are happy with Microsoft's Operating Systems, then keep on keeping on.

 

re: "but why do knuckleheads mouth-off in PC threads that have nothing to do with Macs? I never see this happen in the Apple threads."

 

if that's the case you haven't been paying attention or your memory is more selective than Donald Rumsfeld's.

[Brad_]

>>> See, I've offended you Brad. I'm sorry.

 

Really? Where? Guess that's what you say when you're out of gas on reason and logic...

[ellis_vener_photography]

"Or is it that mind control exists in the Mac world?

 

I really don't want a company messing with my mind. Do you?"

 

I thought you were asking an innocent question and now you reveal your truer intent and started spewing flame bait.

 

 

Now I'm sorry I wasted the time crafting a balanced and well thought out answer to your initial question.

 

re: "Do Apple users get more work done?"

 

Yes we do. We also end up saving money as well as time. Until they start answering troll 's questions.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Well Ellis (regarding "mind control"), how else would you explain the extreme fanaticism that seems to exist among Mac users? Especially considering that a photographer's images aren't any better using a Mac, and the OS system is in the background, and not much of factor really, using software programs (although Apple folks seem to want everyone to believe otherwise)?

 

Believe me, my initial question was an innocent one, but this is the evolution that has occurred in this thread, regarding my responses, when Apple folks have started to dig-in and refute my original premise (based on logic and reason) that the computer type and operating system is just not that important when it comes to what the computer is ultimately supposed to accomplish for the photographer--image creation and management. And yet, ironically, you consider me as the troll. Here I was all along thinking that when a PC user posts a question asking about his PC, or help with his PC, and a Mac user comes in and says something like "buy a Mac," I thought that was a troll. Silly me, huh. Sorry you wasted your time, again. Sincerely.

 

Brad, I see that reason and logic doesn't make a dent in the Mac users mind, so I have run out of steam. You are 100% correct, again.

[kelly_flanigan1]

In printing most all of my PC's are not trolling the web; picking up dog manure aand thus dont have any of the typical PC users problems. Here I have RIP stations with NT3.51 and NT4 and UNIX and LINIX that have never required any upgrades. They are still printing folks work they bring in done witn Macs and PCs. In printing there is a profit motive; one doesnt have time to fart around futzing.<BR><BR>Folks that tend to get stuck in the PC futzing sinkhole "tend" to surf the internet nude, tend to ignore security issues, tend to buy the latest PC OS thats trendy; tend to purposely use a all in one box. A Mac tends to protect idiots who ignore security issues; you pay more at first for a controlled canned system. <BR><BR>Macs being a religion has been discussed for decades. We have customers that are gung ho about Macs and PC's. <BR><BR>In recent CD's we have received written with folks canned burned software on Vista boxes; many times they cannot be read by any of our win2000, win98se, nt4 boxes. The two imacs of ours with os 10x cannot read these bastard Vista discs. Our many Xp boxes usually cannot read them either, but one of our older PPro box with Xp and an old p111 box with Xp boot can many times read them. Thus in a print shop one maintains a historical bunch of boxes; to read pesky inputs. The typical customer says its your problem if a disc cannot be read. Creating a burner software that burns discs that cannot be read on windows2000; or most all XP boxes is retarded; the chap who created this manure should be keelhauled and forced to eat is own manure/work. Vista seems to be loved by some groupies; it seems real bloaded by historical standards. <BR><BR>With Mac only employees we have hired; some are trainable to use some PC's; others seem abit narrowminded and give up. One that left us used CS2 and is photoshop certified and never uses curves; its just auto levels. Its like learning is difficult; using a canned solution is the Mac way for some folks.<BR><BR>The one thing folks rarely mention is what your friends use; having somebody with a similar Mac or PC has great worth to learn subtle things. <BR><BR>It really doesnt matter whether an image was done/processed with a Pc or Mac. What matters is YOUR TIME.<BR><BR>If you are being interviewed for position; strive to can the PC verus Mac BS and dogma; companies have real work to do. Having experience with both systems makes you more employable. <BR><BR>Photoshop is a great program because the Mac users actually help the program from being messed with to much.

[kelly_flanigan1]

After Katrina both Pc's and Macs worked well for holding down tarps to keep the new shingles dry. The tombstone SE30 looks cooler than the IBM P3. In the end both machines become land fill; ponder what your time is worth. <BR><BR><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/KATRINA/P1010025shingleMACPC.jpg?t=1187465208">

[david_banks2]

Ellis,

"working in Apple OS X is much morte pleasant and efficient process"

I think its this concept which is mystifying to a PC user. I mean, I boot up my machine and double-click on the PS icon on my desktop. From that point I am into a third party program. There is no interraction with the OS to speak of. In fact, the less I have to consider the OS the better in my opinion. PC people generally fail to understand what it is about the Mac OS that is so 'pleasant and efficient' and why such passion surrounds it. What could be easier than double-clicking an icon?

[Uhooru]

I'm not sure what this thread is all about. You start it by saying ".

 

Folks, I'm not trying to start a war, I just have an innocent question. "

 

But it appears you are out to do exactly that. Why? You seem to ask if it matters and then you start taking a point of view and making some rather broad, unsubstantiated and polemic statements such as:

 

"It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will) :), that PC users are more realists, down-to-earth, and see computers for what they are: machines to accomplish some sort of work, or provide entertainment, or education. Mac users seem to have their heads in the clouds, and attribute qualities to their Macs above and beyond their intended purpose, like a religious experience or something."

 

or "Maybe Macs are better suited for less savvy computer users? I don't know."

 

 

 

And your response to Ellis who simply responded to your question in a pretty non-aggressive manner.

 

"'To me, this seems to be the crux of whole matter: will your images be superior, in any way, if you used an Apple instead of a PC?'

 

No probably not, but I do find that working in Apple OS X is much morte pleasant and efficient process. But once you are in Adobe Photoshop it is sort like you are in Adobe's OS. I do see far fewer questions regarding color management with OS X than with Windows or Vista - and while it is less arcane than implementing it in Windows I think that is more than likely due to operator error.

 

And I see less questions about driver incompatibilites too.

 

And there are the security/malware/adware differences between OS X and Microsoft's OS's.

 

BUT: If you are happy with Microsoft's Operating Systems, then keep on keeping on." <end quote>

 

And when he sees your crack about mind control he confronts you on it, you reply:

 

"Believe me, my initial question was an innocent one, but this is the evolution that has occurred in this thread, regarding my responses, when Apple folks have started to dig-in and refute my original premise (based on logic and reason) that the computer type and operating system is just not that important when it comes to what the computer is ultimately supposed to accomplish for the photographer--image creation and management. And yet, ironically, you consider me as the troll. Here I was all along thinking that when a PC user posts a question asking about his PC, or help with his PC, and a Mac user comes in and says something like "buy a Mac," I thought that was a troll. Silly me, huh. Sorry you wasted your time, again. Sincerely." <end quote>

 

It seems so obvious that the kettle is calling the pot black. I didn't see anyone "digging into" you. I saw people without a grudge simply answer your question, give their opinions and no one was attempting to change anyone's mind about what to use......except you. And when a couple starting catching what you were doing and called you on it, you seem to get very defensive. It seems you are creating your own self-validating flame war.

 

So now, since this is what you want, I will "dig into you"..You are what in internet parlance is called a Troll, and you've been busted.

You can play your game all you want, but now everyone will see it for the b.s. it is. Thanx for wasting our time.

[yoni_perlmutter]

The 4 years I spent driving on the "wrong side" of the road with

the steering wheel at the left went very well for me after the 1st few

days. By then I had stopped brushing parked cars at my left, driving

up onto traffic islands and breaking into a panicky sweat before

entering a roundabout.

 

That's an "interface"; man meeting machine. But this was often at 70 mph and failure to succeed with the interface would certainly have

led to serious consequences.

 

Now to the more prosaic kinds of interfaces. The kind where the machine sits static on a desk and the person has to fumble with the

keyboard and mouse and say "oh, drat" when he screws up.

 

One of the things which no one seems to make clear to others in this

thread (including me) is

"what else do I use this computer for besides image

processing". How many hours in the week do I use image processing

software? email, spreadsheets, game? How many computers do I have?

Are they dedicated to one application or another? Are they general

purpose? Will this impact on the decision as to which machine to get?

It should, you know.

 

From what I remember, most users' negative feelings about

PCs came about from

 

1. User ignorance - a problem not properly addressed by Management and

 

2. Maladministration of the network off of which these PCs ran -

not really PCs any more as the "personal" part was cut out of

their use. They became more like "smart terminals" with great

potential.

 

I have to be honest and say that I'd probably feel more comfortable

using a UNIX system and a dumb terminal than I would anything

else. But it looks like that's not going to happen. So the PC is ok.

 

I also agree with David about turning the machine on and double clicking on an icon. It really doesn't take that much.

 

Getting back to the automobile analogy (sorry for that, by the way),

once a week I walk around the auto and visually inspect it, air pressure, oil/coolant levels, windscreen cracks and so forth.

This takes about as long and is as arduous as my checking my PC

(also on a weekly basis) for viruses, malware, for defragmenting, updating software and so forth.

 

Finally, I know others find the . . . Apple OS X

a much more pleasant and efficient process . . .

[ronald_moravec1]

In the end both get you there. My few weeks with Mac tells me the trip is much more

pleasent.

 

Turn the Mac on from cold and is ready to go in thirty sec flat. CS3 opens in 5/10 sec

when I hit the Icon.

 

Turn on my pc, windows starting for 60 sec, log on, wait anywhere from 4-10 minutes

while the os opens every program loaded. I usually go make coffee and drink the first cup.

Photoshop launch is 40 sec. Then it is time to empty the first coffee if you get what I

mean.

 

Then when working PS it does something so that I have to purge files to keep it going.

That or reboot four times a day which is what i did before I discovered purge.

 

Lastly there are all kind of people trying to add junk to you computer, spyware, malware,

virus etc.

 

I am keeping the windows machine to run stuff where there is no mac program. So I

move a few files from one computer to another, big deal.

 

I will never go back.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Okay Barry, here's the way I see the "evolution" of this thread. I was reading Patrick Lavoie's post addressing all the questions I had, and he did a beautiful job, but he skipped the one question that had been eating away at me the most: "Why do Apple users feel compelled to butt into a PC users thread that has absolutely nothing to do with Apple?" The one question I really cared about was completely ignored, so I became a little piqued, and I came back with the mind control statement and asked him, rhetorically, if he wanted a company controlling his mind, because that seemed to be the only plausible explanation for an Apple user busting into a PC thread and saying "buy an Apple," or something else equally irrelevant.

 

Further down, Brad became nasty comparing me to someone in high school. I tried to apologize and stop the personal attack, but he wanted no part of, and tried to escalate the nastiness.

 

Then I came upon Ellis's post. And I remember Ellis from the exact threads I was talking about as someone who would chime in on a PC thread and say something like "buy a Mac." In the past, I had read through some of these PC threads, not started by me, and I would become so agititated and annoyed seeing someone like Ellis trying to constantly preach the gospel of Apple when it had absolutely nothing to do with the thread. So I saw Ellis here as a poster, recognized his name as someone who had caused me irritation and disbelief in the past, even though I never responded to those threads, just lurked. So I did have a grudge all along, even from the beginning of this thread in my original post, as evidenced by my statement about why "knuckleheads feel compelled to etc., etc., etc." So I did have a grudge all along, and happened to recognize Ellis. I very rarely post on photo.net.

 

Then Ellis responded to the question about image quality between the two platforms, and if the quality would be better on a Mac, and he says "probably not." Probably not! Why not "definitely not? An Apple user cannot even concede that image quality would be same, which seems to me to be a fact and not something really open to debate.

 

The bottom line with me is that I had been annoyed even before submitting this post, and I felt compelled to get it off my chest after all this time. I carried the annoyance with me for a long time, finally manifesting it in this thread. All the other questions were innocent, but I had no doubt in my mind that it's totally wrong for Apple users to comment in PC threads the way they have. I felt sorry for the PC posters who had to endure the Apple propoganda. It truly bothered me. That was certainly not an innocent question on my part about why "knuckleheads feel compelled, etc."

 

So rather than troll, I consider myself as someone who had became annoyed in the past just reading some threads, and I wanted to get into this whole Mac/PC thing deeper, and to state my feelings of aggravation at the behavior of some Mac users. Nothing more nothing less.

[steven_clark]

I'm actually gonna argue that the one platform that isn't suitable right now is Linux. The color management support just isn't there yet so you're editing kinda blind.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Ronald, all you have to do with a PC is tweak XP Pro. Shut down all the programs loading at startup, and many other tweaks too numerous to mention now. My PCs are ready to go in the same 40 seconds or less, but only after optimizing them for my own personal needs. No big deal at all, and not a problem either.

[erik scanhancer]

Barry took the words out of my mouth. Fortunately that leaves me some space to give some genuine arguments as to why some photographers might prefer a Mac, purely

based on productivity:

 

- Macs have their color management built into the OS. This allows other programs than just PS to use embedded profiles. The simple Preview application -for example-

supports embedded profiles and even allows for converting to other color spaces, without having to resort to Photoshop.

 

- Ideally one would make several monitor profiles for several viewing situations. A Mac allows for switching these profiles on the fly and see the result instantly throughout the

entire OS.

 

- Digital photographers on a Mac can choose between Lightroom and Aperture. I believe having choice in this field is very important. Actually the existence of Aperture has

been the major drive behind the development of Lightroom. So even PC owners profit of the Mac platform this way.

 

- Macs support most RAW formats natively (and are regularly updated fo this support), allowing to create thumbnails automatically for almost any RAW files. This feature also

allows to create a slideshow of RAW files on the fly, by simply opening them in Preview and hitting the slideshow function. This can be very handy for checking out what you

just shot with your chipcam. No need to also shoot JPEGs, giving higher shooting speeds and more room on your memory cards.

 

- OSX supports huge volumes of RAM and hard drive space. Having several memory eating applications open at the same time (like Photoshop AND Lightroom) serves a

photographer's workflow tremendously.

 

- OSX.5 that is to come out this autumn will support 16 bit scanner drivers. The new Epsons will use this option as to make more precise gradients. This way it will be possible

to print directly from Photoshop in 16 bit without internal downconversion to 8 bit.

 

The above are arguments that might be of value for photographers. Me also being a videographer wouldn't be able to do what I can do now on a Mac because of the existence

of Final Cut Pro and Shake. There aren't many professional video editors that will use a PC, except for systems that use the PC as a remote control only. I have several long time

PC users around me who have switched to the Mac platform. They are photographers, videographers and graphic designers. They know where they come from and all really

seem to hate the PC platform now. It's not Steve Jobs who converted them (they knew nothing about the so-called "Apple church" before they switched). It is their user

experience that makes them spit on the PC platform. All say they are now able to do more in less time and with greater precision. And with a lot more fun.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Also, I think if you're trying to use a computer as an all-in-one solution for all your needs you're gonna have some issues, but the virus issue shouldn't be an issue if you have adequate protection. Maybe fault your protection software, but not Windows, or PCs in general.

[Brad_]

>>> Brad became nasty comparing me to someone in high school.

 

No, I mentioned that one metric of a car is horsepower. And having the most is something guys in

high school are most interested in. Similarly, with computers, clock rate is just one metric. And far to

often, especially on internet forums, some take the view that that's the only metric that matters with

respect to productivity. Productivity is can be expressed as a vector of multiple attributes, not just a

single point; ie clock rate.

 

As Ellis and others pointed out, your just a troll. And now you're trying to play the downtrodden

victim because others have views not in lockstep with yours. Calm down.

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Listen Brad, you seem like a troll to me. So the knife cuts both ways.

 

Also, something I didn't comment upon earlier is that an appreciation for speed and performance automobiles has nothing to do with age, nothing. In fact, most of the people I know who are involved with horsepower and fast automobiles are grown responsible adults enjoying a hobby, just as you might enjoy digital photography. The love may start in high school, but it's not adolescent to indulge in the performance hobby. That's why I was angered by your analogy. And if that's not trolling, then I don't know what it is.

 

Best Regards (in the end)