An interesting report by ABC

[ellis_vener_photography]

Mr. Schjeldahl most likely has a much stronger, better read, better informed, better tested

view of

Sontag's early critique of photography than you do Mr. Gardner. Among other things, Ms.

Sontag wrote that book to make a name for herself as a serious thinker; she wrote it to

draw attention to herself.

 

You, by your own admission, are putting

blinkers on -- you look for what you want to look for and accept only what fits your pre-

established world view. An intellectually more rigorous and honest approach would be to

say to yourself: "I know this doesn't fit what I hold dear but let me test my assumptions to

see if those beliefs are true. And if they are not true, what is?"

 

Quickly this type of argument is like arguing

about the existence of God. I believe that God exists but know that God's existence can't

be proved and that

whatever conception or perception of God (including God's non-existence) that I or any

other person hold is no more than an intellectual construct limited by my self. your belief

may be absolute and you'll offer proofs. But as Joseph Campbell once pointed out: If you

could prove that God exists then what need is there for faith?

 

And you haven't re-read or even read Moby Dick, have you? If you haven't then all you are

doing is repeating at third or fourth or fifth or twentieth hand what an author may have

said about his

work or to whom or furnished the context forthat alleged quote. And the same holds for

what you claim Bob Dylan may have said. (if you have ever playedthe game telephone you

can seewhere I am going) Therefore your claims and assumptions are

untrustworthy.

 

So yes, based on the evidence presented so far, I think you are wrong. I would like to think

that what I think matters to other people but that is just a conceit on my part and so I also

think it probably doesn't -- unless I can persuade someone to act, and to look at the

world differently.

[beeman458]

"Mr. Schjeldahl most likely has a much stronger, better read, better informed, better tested view of Sontag's early critique of photography than you do Mr. Gardner."

 

Check out how much of what he quoted, ascribed, came out of "On Photography." There is no such thing as a valid critic when it comes to "Art." This is borne out by history, it's not based upon personal opinion.

 

"Among other things, Ms. Sontag wrote that book to make a name for herself as a serious thinker; she wrote it to draw attention to herself."

 

I'll look forward to you posting link to confirm this above point but irrespective as to her motives, the book flies high in it's lucidity.

 

"You, by your own admission, are putting blinkers on -- you look for what you want to look for and accept only what fits your pre- established world view."

 

Putting blinkers on, at a proper moment, is not a bad thing. Who's right when it comes to matters of aesthetics?

 

"An intellectually more rigorous and honest approach would be to say to yourself: "I know this doesn't fit what I hold dear but let me test my assumptions to see if those beliefs are true. And if they are not true, what is?""

 

Yes. The wonderful world of dialectics. And the supposition has to be that I didn't carry out this Push/Pull, Ying/Yang, Good & Evil argument to arrive at my conclusions and all I did was jump to an incorrect, (by your standard,) poorly thought out, (by your standard,) without research to support my contention, conclusion. Would that be a fair assumption as to your view of how I came to my conclusions?

 

"Quickly this type of argument is like arguing about the existence of God. I believe that God exists but know that God's existence can't be proved and that whatever conception or perception of God (including God's non-existence) that I or any other person hold is no more than an intellectual construct limited by my self. your belief may be absolute and you'll offer proofs. But as Joseph Campbell once pointed out: If you could prove that God exists then what need is there for faith?"

 

And I submit to Joseph Campbell, whom ever he might be, You expect me to believe that existence just popped into being, without intervention?" I submit that that's an even bigger leap of faith on his part.

 

"And you haven't re-read or even read Moby Dick, have you?"

 

Twice was enough for me and no condemnation for those who wish to read it more that a forced twice which was required of me. I hope it won't upset you that I have no need to read fiction.

 

"If you haven't then all you are doing is repeating at third or fourth or fifth or twentieth hand what an author may have said about his work or to whom or furnished the context forthat alleged quote. And the same holds for what you claim Bob Dylan may have said. (if you have ever playedthe game telephone you can seewhere I am going) Therefore your claims and assumptions are untrustworthy."

 

As I reposted, I didn't make the claim in regard to Melville and Dylan, I played your telephone and quoted the original claimant.

 

"So yes, based on the evidence presented so far, I think you are wrong."

 

Sorry, third party opinion isn't a valid form of evidence in a court of law. And I must ask, I'm wrong based upon what evidence that you've provided by Melville himself? I'm happy to let someone fill their lives with fantasy and symbols but I'm only asking for a link to comments made by Neville supporting the contention of symbolism. He may well have meant his book to suffer interminably with symbolism but it seems that unless otherwise supported, to me it was just a good fictional adventure book.

 

"I would like to think that what I think matters to other people but that is just a conceit on my part and so I also think it probably doesn't -- unless I can persuade someone to act, and to look at the world differently."

 

Lofty goals for another discussion:)

[beeman458]

"Neville"

 

No idea how he got in there:)

[mikhail_simkin]

I wrote <A HREF="http://reverent.org/true_art_or_fake_art.html">a very similar quiz </A> in September 2003.

 

The date can be verified using <A HREF="http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~simkin/true_art_or_fake_art.html"> the web archive</A>.

 

Over 20,000 people had downloaded it before ABC broadcasted their very similar quiz.