An interesting report by ABC

[lee_shively]

Oh, hell's bells! It's become another "what is art?" thread. I'm from the Anything Goes School. It's art if you think it's art and it's crap if you think it's crap.

 

As for the general public preferring the kiddy art to the "real" art, I don't see any controversy at all. The best "real artists" are those who are the most successful in getting back to that childhood vision of the world around them. The kid's are already there.

[thomas_sullivan]

I don't think it's ever been said better, than by Minor White...............

 

"...innocence of eye has a quality of its own. It means to see as a child sees, with freshness and acknowledgment of the wonder; it also means to see as an adult sees who has gone full circle and once again sees as a child - with freshness and an even deeper sense of wonder." -Minor White

[Brad_]

That's beautiful, and so right.

[tholte]

Matt is the only guy that even came close to subtly telling Jason he is full of bologne. Jason's four uploaded photos of insects makes him an expert on the work of Friedlander? I never want anyone to call me an artist because I think that 98% of people that call them selves artists are nuts.

[beeman458]

I love the Web as it allows one to research out that what interests them with but the entry of a few words and the movement of the index finger on the left button of the mouse:)<p>

 

Masters of Photography, article, John Szarkowski on Lee Friedlander: <a href="http://www.masters-of-photography.com/F/friedlander/friedlander_articles3.html">"Self Portraits."</a> One can see from reading what John had to say, that Lee didn't like to talk, as is the case with many contemporary notables, about his photographic efforts.<p>

 

Much of what I've read on many, not all, of the differing contemporary notables is that their efforts were a bunch more superficial than many like to give them credit for. Many want to find some deeper meaning in the photographic efforts and when the artist is queried they'll either sidestep the question or say straight out, it's just a picture. Eggleston is well know for this sort of side stepping behavior in his interviews. Serrano is also known for straight forward answers as was the case of "Piss Christ."<p>

 

<i>In Melbourne at the time of the controversy <a href="http://www.artsandopinion.com/2004_v3_n4/pisschrist-2.htm">Serrano </a>said:<p>

 

I started that work as an attempt to reduce and simplify a lot of the ideas and images that I had been doing up until that time. I didn't do it to be provocative, I did it because damn, the colours would look good, you know. [clapping and cheering] I mean, sometimes I just feel like what I do has the simplest answers, but they're not good enough. People want more of a story and I try to give them a story, but sometimes I have to say: look, you're reading too much into this.</i><p>

 

No deeper meaning, just working with color. The point, the public, in their need to create a deeper meaning, makes both the conditions and controversy, not the artist.<p>

 

This from the Museum of Photographic Arts, San Diego. Excerpt from the book <a href="http://photography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/2aa/2aa373e.htm">The Model Wife</a>, by Arthur Ollman, Director of the Museum of Photographic Art.<p>

 

Many comment on his symbolism but <a href="http://photography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/2aa/2aa373e.htm">Lee</a> himself states, for the record, that he's not into symbolism. But the public comments as to his deeper symbolism.<p>

 

A little bit of break to share a few of Lee's <a href="http://www.jameskelly.com/frid/frid.html">images</a>, like them or not:)<p>

 

The key word to this link is <a href="http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/photography/photographerframe.php?photographerid=ph025">documentary</a> not art.<p>

 

This was an interesting link as many here find <a href="http://www.temple.edu/photo/photographers/friedlander/littlescreens.html">Walker Evans</a> to be rather special and he has been so kind as to take the time and leave comment on this matter for us in regard to what he thinks of Lee Friedlander's efforts.<p>

 

But not all <a href="http://www.aspp.com/bookreviews/reviews/friedlander.html">reviewers</a> were so kind as to what they thought of Lee's photographic efforts.<p>

 

A rich source of <a href=http://www.profotos.com/education/referencedesk/masters/masters/leefriedlander/leefriedlander.shtml>biographies</a> but lacks any personal commentary by notables. Surprisingly, Lee had very little to write/publish on his efforts as it's becoming painfully clear that he didn't want the world to know his inner thoughts on his efforts. Hmmmmmm.<p>

 

It is a shame that noteables are so anemic in their commentary on their efforts. It's as if they consider the general public to be lambs for the fleecing and if they speak true of their efforts, the enigma/mystique will be removed and nobody will want to purchase their photographic efforts.<p>

 

Maybe someone else can leave links to written efforts by Friedlander and his thoughts on his efforts; for what I came up with was cursory at best.<p>

[kent_tolley2]

A psychologist goes into a kindergarden and asks: "Who among you children is a singer?" All the children raise their hands. He walks up the hall to the 6th grade class, goes in and asks the same question of the 11 year olds. Only two kids raise their hands. The others have been told and believed that they were not singers.

[._._z]

A polar bear, a giraffe and a penguin walk into a bar. The bartender, Jason

Neuswanger, says, "What is this? Some kind of joke?"

[beau 1664876222]

First, John Stossel is a moron and a fraud -- let's not forget his show about the dangers of organic food, the one for which he had to go onscreen later and apologize for fabricating the evidence. It's amazing he still has a career.

 

Second, I wasn't crazy about "the Gates." I think it would have been more meaningful at the time it was conceived back in the 70's, when Central Park was a dismal crime zone. Nowadays, with the Park in its super-manicured heyday, it just looked like decorative pageantry, festive, fun and quite a spectacle but not much more than that. I really like some of Christo's other stuff.

 

Third, I got 100% on the test! Does that make me artsy?

[beau 1664876222]

Joan Miro often said (something like) his goal was to be able to paint as well as a child.

[._._z]

Miro and Klee collected paintings and drawings by children. Klee, Jacques Doucet and

others based some of their works on childrens' works.

[joe604]

One part if this debate that I don't think is getting proper coverage is the role of the artist's popularity in defining the popularity of the artist's work.

 

To make is point, John Stossel judges the selected art work outside of the context of the body of work of the artist. That's not necessarily unfair, but it misses the full explanation of why the selected art work was in the museums in the first place.

 

Would a Picasso be as admired by any other name? Of course not. Isn't it just as silly to select a few of Friedlander's more questionable works and clique them as if each and every photo demonstrates his reputation?

 

For any famous artist, there are some prominent works that helped win the artist fame, and there are some works where the artist's fame helps win the work prominence.

 

--Joe

[kent_tolley2]

"The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect<BR> but by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. <BR>The creative mind plays with the objects it loves."<BR>

Carl Gustav Jung

[beau 1664876222]

"kiddie art" teaches us all important things. I learn a lot by watching my children draw. My son is a compulsive artist, he won't stop unless you make him. Reproduced below is (a bad photo of) a detail from a much larger drawing he did at age 3 -- among other things, I find it fascinating how he represents "writing" without being able to write per se.<div></div>

[kent_tolley2]

He obviously inherited your intelligence. Amazingly articulated universe he's got going there. Especially for a 3 y/o!

[kent_tolley2]

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." <BR>

Pablo Picasso

[beeman458]

Siiiiiiigh!

 

If being a kid is key to being an artist.....

[beeman458]

"The others have been told and believed that they were not singers."

 

So the key to being a singer is raising one's hand?

 

I raised my hand, now I'm a singer? Wow! After all these years. All I had to do was raise my hand. Go figure:)

[sprouty]

Jason Neuswanger offers John Stossel as proof that Friedlander sucks? Is that really the best you can do? I'm betting you weren't the highschool hero of the debate team.

[edmo]

<i>"When I was their age I could draw like Raphael, but it took me a lifetime to learn to draw like them."</i>

<p>

Pablo Picasso after studying an exhibition of children's drawings.

[saulzelan]

Did anyone take the quiz themselves? I did, I got 60% correct. Interestingly, I got mostly the "not art" ones correct (i.e. I correctly identified those works that were by kids rather than "masters"- I don't really know if I agree with the designation "not art" for these works, but I see the game they were playing and went along with it for kicks. I am interested in the idea that of the four that I got wrong, one was by a "master" that I identified as "not art.")

 

So I guess what I'm wondering is does this really tell us anything useful beyond the idea that there are some talented children out there (on the one hand) and (on the other hand) that some modern art has attempted to imitate icons of popular consumption (i.e. "pop" art) and that because of this cultural conditioning, we are prone to identify true artifacts of pop culture (such as items purchased at the salvation army store) as art? I don't think that it does.

[nesrani]

"It is a shame that noteables are so anemic in their commentary on their efforts. It's as if they consider the general public to be lambs for the fleecing and if they speak true of their efforts, the enigma/mystique will be removed and nobody will want to purchase their photographic efforts."

 

More likely, they believe that their audience should put some effort into thinking for themselves.

[beeman458]

"More likely, they believe that their audience should put some effort into thinking for themselves."

 

Geee! Fancy that.

 

Or maybe, the artist needs to put something into the art, worthy of thought.

 

Too bad what little the artists do write, don't agree with your above. That's why I posted links to what Serrano and Friedlander had to say on the matter.

 

Maybe you can post a link to what artists have written that support you comment; or are you just guessing?

[nesrani]

Thomas, there is no need for me to defend Freidlander, an artist who has made a reputation over several decades. Nor would he want me to.

 

I don't know what Friedlander says about his own snaps, except for two or three famous one-liners. Serrano I know nothing about except for the Piss Christ furore some time ago. My take on Friedlander is mine alone, as someone who has spent some time taking pictures and thinking about them.

[beau 1664876222]

Thomas, it's ridiculous to say that someone's art is only as good as their verbal characterizations of it. Why should someone who has chosen a certain means of expression, photos, sculpture, whatever, have to do double-duty as a writer or orator? I've known a lot of brilliant musicians who are practically retarded when it comes to talking about their playing, probably because they've spent a lifetime learning to speak through their instrument. Same goes for artists -- if you want to understand their message, look at their art. Chances are, their talk is going to be more deceptive than helpful.

[beeman458]

"Thomas, there is no need for me to defend Freidlander, an artist who has made a reputation over several decades. Nor would he want me to."

 

I'm not asking you to defend Friedlander, I'm asking you to support you claim. Otherwise your claim is just another subjective claim of convenience.