An interesting report by ABC

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>TG:"You make my point. I doubt there was any "symbolism" in "Moby Dick" and it was

nothing more then a good adventure tale. But others wanted to make it in to something it

wasn't, against what Herman had to say."</I><P> I doubt that you have never read

<B>Moby

Dick</B>. I'm reading it right now for the first time in maybe 25 years. It is a very weirdly,

wonderfully written, brilliant novel and it is absolutely full of deliberate symbolism.

Symbolism used so deliberately

that Melville, in the text, takes great pains in several places to point out to even the

densest & most clod headed of

readers.<P><I>TG: "Bob Dylan, when pressed for an explanation of some line or other in

a

song, frequently would say that he just needed something that rhymed with the previous

one.</I><P> I've also met Bob Dylan (once and it was a very long ago), listened to his

music,

and read enough by and about him to come to the reasoned conclusion that it is not wise

to take a

single thing he says when asked about his lyrics or what his lyrics might " mean" to be

construed as either the complete or literal truth about the subject. <P>In short:

Your arguments aren't just pseudo-intellectual Thomas, they are faux pseudo-

ntellectual.

[steve_swinehart]

I took the art test and only got 1 wrong. I don't think it was that hard to separate the kiddie art or faux art from the professional art, as the professionally produced work had ideas associated with it rather than just representational imagery and colors.

 

As for art "experts," I'm currently working with an artist who creates his work digitally. He's taken his work to several well known galleries in Santa Fe, NM. Invariably, the owners/curators at the gallieries call his work "serigraphs."

 

Any person who is familiar with ink based prints (lithographs, serigraphs, etchings) would never make the mistake that the prints are serigraphs - even though they have some aspects that look like serigraphs. If you truly know what a serigraph looks like, you'd know immediately that the work he is presenting is not a serigraph.

 

My point is that I'm always suspect as to the real level of training, expertise, or total familiarity with art when presented with an "expert." I've run into too many of them that are appear to me to be interior decorators masquerading as art authorities.

[beeman458]

"I was thinking of Dadaism, Surrealism, Futurism and so on - the products of the "front generation"."

 

All three movements were pre-WW1 as opposed to WWII :)

[beeman458]

"I doubt that you have never read Moby Dick. I'm reading it right now for the first time in maybe 25 years."

 

Every kid was forced to read that book in seventh grade and and again in Sophmore HS. It's symbolism was discussed ad nauseum.

 

My comments were a reflection of Beau's comment in regard to Melville and Dylan.

 

"Herman Melville supposedly maintained that there was no symbolism in "Moby Dick." Bob Dylan, when pressed for an explanation of some line or other in a song, frequently would say that he just needed something that rhymed with the previous one."

[beeman458]

Just a thought Ellis, you have links available as to Melville's and Dylan's intentions with their efforts to support your claim of symbolism on the part of "Moby Dick?"

 

I just find it odd that everybody seems to know and understand the authors better then the authors and I also find that objectivity, supportive links, are painfully absent.

[mike dixon]

<i>I dig Bobby Dylan, and I dig Johnny Cash<br>

And I think Waylon Jennings is a table-thumpin' smash<br>

Hearing Joni Mitchell feels as good as smoking grass<br>

If you don't like Hank Williams, honey, you can kiss my ass<P>

'Cause I think what they done was well worth doin'<br>

And they're doin' it the best way that they can<br>

And you're the only one that you are screwin'<br>

When you put down what you don't understand.</i><P>

--Kris Kristofferson

[fate_faith_change_chains]

<a href="http://www.pdngallery.com/legends3/michals/"> Duane Michals </a> does some explaining about his work here.

[beeman458]

Phylo. Thanks for the link. Maybe others will take the time to do the same.

[matt_c3]

Thomas are you still reading this thread?

 

I really don't understand why you think there is shortage of "notable" photographers discussing their work. A few random resources:

 

-I posted a link earlier in the Philosophy Forum, but here it is anyways, http://wfmu.org/special.php/SE

 

A radio station in NY has interviewed several photographers including: Michael Light, Simen Johan, Mary Ellen Mark, Philip Lorca Dicorcia, Jeff Mermelstein, Jonathan Torgovnik, David Levinthal, Gregory Crewdson, Bruce Davidson, and others. Many of the interviews are at least one hour long.

 

-Magazines like PDN (check out their website, including the Gallery section, which includes profiles and interviews with dozens of photographers), Aperture, and Blind Spot regularly feature interviews. Also Artforum has a section called "A Thousand Words" which often includes artist statements from photographers.

 

-Photographers (especially those teach at universities and art schools) regularly give lectures and discussions at schools and museums. Since you live in the Bay Area, check out the events at CameraWork, PhotoAlliance, the local art schools SFAI and CCA, SFMOMA, and at the San Jose Museum mof Art.

 

-Whenever a photographer has a book published, an artist statement or a lengthy conversation with a writer or another artist is frequently included.

[beeman458]

<i>I really don't understand why you think there is shortage of "notable" photographers discussing their work. A few random resources:</i><p>

 

I say this because there is a shortage. If I were wrong, this thread would have been flooded with examples, just to prove me wrong:)<p>

 

<i>-I posted a link earlier in the Philosophy Forum, but here it is anyways, http://wfmu.org/special.php/SE</i><p>

 

I missed this link. Thanks for the repost.<p>

 

<p>A radio station in NY has interviewed several photographers including: Michael Light, Simen Johan, Mary Ellen Mark, Philip Lorca Dicorcia, Jeff Mermelstein, Jonathan Torgovnik, David Levinthal, Gregory Crewdson, Bruce Davidson, and others. Many of the interviews are at least one hour long.</i><p>

 

I'd love to listen to some of these interviews, if they're available. I'm in San Jose, so I don't have contact with NY radio stations. Do they have a web site with links to the interviews?<p>

 

<i>-Magazines like PDN (check out their website, including the Gallery section, which includes profiles and interviews with dozens of photographers), Aperture, and Blind Spot regularly feature interviews. Also Artforum has a section called "A Thousand Words" which often includes artist statements from photographers.</i><p>

 

I'll check these sources out to see what the artist's statements are and what they have to reveal about the artist's efforts.<p>

 

<i>-Photographers (especially those teach at universities and art schools) regularly give lectures and discussions at schools and museums. Since you live in the Bay Area, check out the events at CameraWork, PhotoAlliance, the local art schools SFAI and CCA, SFMOMA, and at the San Jose Museum mof Art.</i><p>

 

Thanks for the above suggestions. They do lack a certain practicality for a working stiff in San Jose running his own show and with the exception of the suggestion to check out the San Jose Museum of Art, they're all good suggestions. But do you have anything to suggest reading wise or some links?<p>

 

<i>-Whenever a photographer has a book published, an artist statement or a lengthy conversation with a writer or another artist is frequently included.</i><p>

 

Of the many books by contemporaries that I've purchased and read, little if anything at all have the artists written about their efforts, just a lot of pictures, with no insight as to the photographer's thinking. The comments in the books seem to be by somebody else, other than the artist:(<p>

 

I still don't see why it is that folks, you included can't post links directly to what contemporary artists have to say about their efforts to show how in depth the thinking of these folks are. Instead others seem to do their talking without intervention. I can easily connect links to the Dadaists, the Fauves, the Surrealists (Andre Breton), Steichen, Weston, Imogen Cunningham, on and on ad nauseum for artists associated with the photographic arts, pre-1960 but the latest crop of photographers, somehow, for what ever reason, have forgotten how to write.<p>

 

Thanks again for the additional suggestions to check out.<p>

[fate_faith_change_chains]

<a href="http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/SE">Here</a> is the link with lots of audio interviews with wel known photographers.

[fate_faith_change_chains]

Among the photographers interviewed are : Eugene Richards, Martin Parr, Philip Jones-Griffiths, Mitch Epstein, Mike and Doug Starn, Susan Meiselas, Jeff Meremelstein, Elliot Erwitt, Philip-Lorca diCorcia, Mary Ellen Mark, Gregory Crewdson,...

There are also conversations about photoexhibitions.

 

This should keep you busy for a while...

[fate_faith_change_chains]

Oh, didn't realized that Matt C already mentioned those same audiointerviews...

[beeman458]

"This should keep you busy for a while..."

 

Phylo. Thanks for the link. You're right about the link keeping me busy for a while:)

[ben conover]

Hi, I am a begiiner at photography and I love it, I want to learn how use a cable release next...... I think that any form of art gets better after practice, perhaps the only exceptions to that are:

 

 

1) Artistic Savants, born with a very rare and yet difficult gift.

 

2) Artistic Suckers, born with no abilities whatsoever.

 

 

For the vast majority of us there is a very wide middle road, 99% grey. Like I said, I am a beginner and I'm happy that way.

[matt_c3]

Thomas, there really is no shortage. While there are always exceptions, exhibiting photographers are constantly talking about their work. A few examples:

 

1. Photographers are frequently invited as visiting artists and give presentations/lectures about their work at art schools and universities throughout the school year.

 

2. Whenever a living photographer has a solo exhibit at a museum, the photographer will often give a talk followed by a question and answer session during the show's opening. The artist might also do press work by giving an interview on the radio.

 

3. Even the newspaper, from time to time, profiles and interviews photographers (usually in the arts section).

 

4. Galleries regularly include artist statements in a press release for an upcoming show, or on their website.

 

5. Photographers are almost always required to submit an artist statement when they apply to an art program (especially grad school), for a teaching position, or for a gallery or proposed exhibit.

 

Thomas wrote: "I say this because there is a shortage. If I were wrong, this thread would have been flooded with examples, just to prove me wrong:)"

 

I don't know why this thread would have been flooded. Photo.net is a great resource, and there are many helpful and insightful people, but I've never gotten the impression that it was overflowing with people who were discussing contemporary photographers (other than the few that are already well established).

 

Thomas wrote: "I'll check these sources out to see what the artist's statements are and what they have to reveal about the artist's efforts."

 

You should be able to find PDN, Blind Spot, Aperture, etc. at a large bookstore, public library, or maybe a local university's library. If not, the libraries at CCA or SFAI should carry current and past issues of these magazines. And while no substitute for the real thing, these magazines do have websites:

 

1. www.pdnonline.com

 

Like I said in my earlier post, check out the "Gallery" section. You?ll find several profiles and interviews for various photographers, categorized by sections like "Masters" and "Emerging Artists." The magazine itself features interviews with photographers in every issue.

 

2. www.aperture.com

 

Aperture also regularly publishes interviews with photographers. Their website, however, offers only previews and excerpts.

 

3. www.blindspot.com

 

Blind Spot publishes interviews less frequently. You might be able to find excerpts from interviews from the some of the earlier issues in the "Back Issues" section on their website.

 

Thomas wrote: "Thanks for the above suggestions. They do lack a certain practicality for a working stiff in San Jose running his own show and with the exception of the suggestion to check out the San Jose Museum of Art, they're all good suggestions. But do you have anything to suggest reading wise or some links?"

 

I understand that it'd be hard to attend a lot of these events. My point, though, was that discussions and lectures given by photographers are going on CONSTANTLY at these types of venues, of which there are at least half a dozen (if not more) in just the Bay Area alone.

 

Thomas wrote: "Of the many books by contemporaries that I've purchased and read, little if anything at all have the artists written about their efforts, just a lot of pictures, with no insight as to the photographer's thinking. The comments in the books seem to be by somebody else, other than the artist:("

 

If you don't mind me asking, what are some of the books that you have purchased?

 

Every year, hundreds of monographs and books by individual photographers are published. It's true that many of these books feature only an introduction written by a curator, writer, or another artist, etc. However, there are just as many books that also include an artist statement or interview with the artist. And even introductions written by someone else may feature quotes or other firsthand information.

 

Thomas wrote: "I still don't see why it is that folks, you included can't post links directly to what contemporary artists have to say about their efforts to show how in depth the thinking of these folks are. Instead others seem to do their talking without intervention...the latest crop of photographers, somehow, for what ever reason, have forgotten how to write."

 

As far as posting links directly, I don't know how to hotlink. And as far as links to "what contemporary artists have to say," there are just too many to list. In this post, I mentioned some sites that offer direct insight to several dozen contemporary photographers. And you also might want to check out my recent post in the Philosophy forum, "Tate Online Lectures with Photographers." However, in terms of direct insight from active contemporary photographers, websites can only offer so much (or little).

 

 

[beeman458]

"Thomas, there really is no shortage. While there are always exceptions, exhibiting photographers are constantly talking about their work. A few examples:"

 

And when you google the names of contemporary notables, there's notta much to be found as opposed to doing the same with the older notables.

 

Link me to the thoughts, where contemporary notables spell out what they're doing with their artistic efforts. I can find what others have to say about their efforts but I can't find much where the notables talk about their efforts in anything more then in a cursory light.

 

Thank you for your efforts in what you wrote. I'm not trying to drag this into some sort of an argument. I do web searches and nada.

 

As to books of recent readings, "Veronica's Revenge", "Stieglitz On Photography," "On Photography," "Crisis of the Real," "Post-Modernism: The Twilight of the Real," Within The Context Of No Context," Three of Eggleston's picture books, if that would count as reading:) "Camera Lucida" and many others.

 

It just seems that I should be able to Google a name and pull up something of import. If I were to Google, as an example Henri Rousseau, I can pull a ton up on the guy. He was a huge influence on the Mexican painter Diego Rivera, who I can do a search on and pull up a bunch on as to what he had to say as to his efforts. I can pull up a ton on Andre Breton (Surrealism), or Picasso, Dali, Andy Warhol or many others. Heavens, even Che Guevara had a lot to say about his Marxists ways.

 

Maybe I'm just Googling the wrong places:)

[beeman458]

"As far as posting links directly, I don't know how to hotlink."<p>

 

That's simple.<p>

 

<a href="place web link info here">write what you want here</a><p>

 

Example:<p>

 

You can learn more about<a href="http://photography.about.com/library/weekly/aa110199a.htm">Lee Friedlander</a> at this web site.<p>

 

And when you post, use the HTML tag instead of the "Plain Text" choice. You'll need to install paragraphy breaks at the end of each paragraph. A paragraph break looks like <p>

 

I'll post the first time using "Plain Text" and the second post using HTML.<p>

[beeman458]

"As far as posting links directly, I don't know how to hotlink."<p>

 

That's simple. Here's a sample.<p>

 

<a href="place web link info here">write what you want here</a><p>

 

Example:<p>

 

You can learn more about <a href="http://photography.about.com/library/weekly/aa110199a.htm">Lee Friedlander</a> at this web site.<p>

 

And when you post, use the HTML tag instead of the "Plain Text" choice. You'll need to install paragraph breaks at the end of each paragraph. A paragraph break looks like <p>

 

I'll post the first time using "Plain Text" and the second post using HTML.<p>

[matt_c3]

"Link me to the thoughts, where contemporary notables spell out what they're doing with their artistic efforts. I can find what others have to say about their efforts but I can't find much where the notables talk about their efforts in anything more then in a cursory light." <p>

Information that you can find on websites is really just the tip of the iceberg in terms of artists discussing their work. However, if you really are interested in what various photographers have to say about their work, you could do a lot worse than the numerous websites (PDN, Blind Spot, etc.) that I've listed in this thread. The WFMU link alone should keep you occupied for a long time. In addition, <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BX8M">Tate's online events</a> has four or five talks given by photographers, which should also keep you busy for a while. <p>

 

I haven't read any of the books you've listed (they do sound very interesting though), but it seems like many are art criticism books. You're more likely to find artist statements and interviews in a monograph/book by an individual photographer (as opposed to a survey or compilation). <p>

 

Thanks for showing me how to use hotlinking.

[beeman458]

"Thanks for showing me how to use hotlinking."

 

My pleasure and thanks for the web sites which you mentioned, I'll continue to check them out and see what I can find in regard to what contemporary notables have to say about their efforts.

 

The reason reading what one has to say about their artistic efforts is that I get more from the written word, as to insight to one's thinking, then I do from looking at their photographic efforts.

 

Maybe I should stop photographing and get into writing:)

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>Just a thought Ellis, you have links available as to Melville's and Dylan's intentions with

their efforts to support your claim of symbolism on the part of "Moby Dick?"</I><P> That

isn't a thought Thomas. Thought requires abstract reasoning.<P> To understand Melville's

and Dylan' s truer intentions simply requires reading or listening to their works. If you

ever HAVE read Moby Dick then you'll instantly get what I mean: that Melville constantly

uses symbolism. Indeed the novel, the tale of the voyage and the hunt, the description of

scenes people and action, are so heavily freighted

with symbolism that the story frequently seems on the edge of sinking itself. As I said

above: in several places in the tale - Melville the author , through the voice of Ishmael the

narrator takes great and careful pains to point out to the reader that you need to pay

attention to such and such a detail becaue it symbolizes some larger theme. as a for

instance there is the "Whiteness of the Whale" chapters or "The Mat Maker' chapter or the

scene in the beginning of the book in the chapel in Nantucket.<P>If you ask a creator of a

work of art to explicitly say this and this is what I meant by this and this, I suspect you'll

get an answer something along the lines of the poet's remark when asked by a journalist

to explain a poem:<B> "What, you want me to say it worse?"</B>

[ellis_vener_photography]

Thomas I notice in your bio/artist's statement that you write:<P><I>Susan Sontag's

extremely lucid and insightful "On Photography" which is a proverbial "Who's Who" of

photography. Take of month or two with this short book and keep the broadband close at

hand when you read this effort so as to get maximum potential/exposure. This gal's

brilliant in her writings.</I><P>Interesting. In the New Yorker magazine of 3/21/05, in

an article titled "LOOKING BACK, Diane Arbus at the Met" ( on line at http://

newyorker.com/critics/art), critic PETER SCHJELDAHL holds the business end of the critical

shotgun up to the

late Ms. Sontag's head and pulls both triggers, reducing what you call her "brilliant

writings" on photography to an eviscerated heap:

<P><I>SontagÕs notorious attack on Arbus, in an essay from 1973 that became the

linchpin of her book ÒOn PhotographyÓ (1977), passed one test of great criticism. It asked

the right questionÑabout photographyÕs claim to be a full-fledged and legitimate artÑat

the right time, when ArbusÕs work had advanced that claim with unprecedented force.

Otherwise, the essay is an exercise in aesthetic insensibility, eschewing description of the

art for aspersions, often pithy, on the artistÕs ethics. ÒArbusÕs interest in freaks expresses

a desire to violate her own innocence,Ó Sontag wrote. ThatÕs probably right, but itÕs

incidental to photographs that transcend the interest and desire of their maker and, in the

process, shatter the idea of ÒfreaksÓ as a stable category of experience. Sontag rushed to

rescue the idea. ÒIn photographing dwarfs, you donÕt get majesty and beauty,Ó she

insisted. ÒYou get dwarfs.Ó She noted with bemusement that in ArbusÕs pictures people

who are Òpathetic, pitiable, as well as repulsiveÓ look Òcheerful, self-accepting, matter-of-

fact.Ó She wondered, ÒDo they know how grotesque they are? It seems as if they donÕt.Ó

They Òappear not to know that they are ugly.Ó ItÕs an interesting complaint, suggesting that

people who look or behave in unusual ways merit sympathy from the rest of us only if they

visibly assent to our disgust with them. Saying such things shows how far Sontag was

willing to go in a campaign that aimed, beyond Arbus, at photography itself. She denied it

the power, which she granted to literature, of altering conventional responsesÑand even

the possibility of being creatively inspired. She wrote, incredibly, ÒThere is a large

difference between the activity of a photographer, which is always willed, and the activity

of a writer, which may not be.Ó</I><P>It is also worth noting that towards the end of her

too short life Sontag herself had decided that much of what she had written in "On

Photography" was just wrong. See "On The Suffering of Others."

[beeman458]

Humpty Dumpty, was freely acknowledged that the nursery rhyme was intended to be and was discussed by the author to be symbolic, as Humpty Dumpty was political in nature as were many of the children's rhymes of the time were.

 

Some like to make note of the fact that there are a lot of fences in my images as if they're symbolic. They're not. I like to make note that there are a lot of fences in the wonderful world of landscapes, which I choose to photograph. Hell, I can't take a pic of something sticking up in the air without some brainwashed freethinker coming along thinking "phalic symbol." What's with that?

 

I'm happy to imbue my images with symbolism, when it's time and other times, there's nothing more there then the simplicity of Metaphysics.

 

"Indeed the novel, the tale of the voyage and the hunt, the description of scenes people and action, are so heavily freighted with symbolism that the story frequently seems on the edge of sinking itself."

 

Color me in any light of your choosing.

 

Or the story could simply be a description of a fictional adventure story and nothing more but anyone is welcome to insert themselves into any story, in any manner to their choosing and that's just dandy. Doesn't mean that the interpretation is what the original intent of the author is.

 

I prefer to read what the author has to say as opposed to what others have to say. I have no reason to doubt the brevity of your comments and don't challenge your comment in any way, it would seem, considering how much Melville's effort has been discussed, one should easily be able to show written word as to what he had to say the intent of his effort was. So until one shows me (not saying they can't) Melville intended his story to be frought with symbolism, I'm gonna go with the thought that "Moby Dick" was wonderful adventure story with no other purpose than entertainment purposes and any other interpretation is just wishful thinking.

 

Seems rational to me. Please don't be upset that I don't want to go through the door. I'm making a resonable request for someone to provide a link to the author's own words supporting their contention as to symbolism. If it's not available, then it's not available.

[beeman458]

"Thomas I notice in your bio/artist's statement that you write:"

 

"Interesting. In the New Yorker magazine of 3/21/05, in an article titled "LOOKING BACK, Diane Arbus at the Met" ( on line at http:// newyorker.com/critics/art), critic PETER SCHJELDAHL holds the business end of the critical shotgun up to the late Ms. Sontag's head and pulls both triggers, reducing what you call her "brilliant writings" on photography to an eviscerated heap:"

 

Okay, we have a difference of opinion and I stand by my comments, unaltered. Now. Who's right and who's wrong?

 

"Otherwise, the essay is an exercise in aesthetic insensibility, eschewing description of the art for aspersions, often pithy, on the artist's ethics."

 

And it's an easy conclusion to come to, if you don't take the time to reread and understand.

 

"It is also worth noting that towards the end of her too short life Sontag herself had decided that much of what she had written in "On Photography" was just wrong. See "On The Suffering of Others."

 

It's also worth noting many things that Susan had to write towards the end of her life. Personally, I wasn't able to stomach the tripe that was in "On The Suffering of Others.", I hide my past sufferings and to read what she had to say, well, I just politely put the book down and continued in life, without condemnation. The book and it's contents hasn't changed my opinion of the woman which I doubt anyone would be able to, even if she had tried herself.

 

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this in regard to Susan Sontag as opposed to Melville's "Moby Dick and his symbolism."