bacsa Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Jamie, -talking about romania. As to the similarities with "pre-gorbachov" USSR, you gotta be joking. Brad is probably right. At least in romania and hungary, in the seventies and eighties, in bigger cities more than 2 persons out on the street together was considered possible protest. Groups of people were safe outside only when people were ORDERED to get out in masses and "celebrate" Labours Day, Big Socialist Revolution anniversary or some other stupid national day. Sorry for diverting from the original topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_sullivan Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 actually csab', keep on with the history lesson on how other country's peoples lived thru those times. I think it's important to remind us in "free" countries what happens if the government forgets that they exist to serve the people........not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman458 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 You're right. We should pull the cops out. Let the hooligans rule the streets. The rule of law and the resonable expectations for everybody to follow the same rules should be abandoned. Liberals will be able to invade and violate Conservatives right to peacefully assemble and then the Liberals can make laws to suit their needs because the opposition, Conservatives, will have been destroyed. Government of the people, by the people and for the people will have parished as only the libeal cause will be considered. That's what you really want. There's two sides to any political issue and it doesn't include the right to be a hooligan, vandal or to shut down all of society's right to peacefully assemble. Peaceful assembly does not include rock throwing, beating of cops, turning over and burning of cars, looting or shutting down roadways by locking yourself together, turning over of newstands or pushing dumpsters into the streets. You got a problem with the system, vote! And if you didn't get your way, there's an election, usually, a couple times a year as the system is not just about the position of president. The protestors are the problem, not the cops as the protestors think the laws don't apply to them unless the laws compliment their agenda. Will you be so willing to let Conservatives off the hook when they get fed up with Liberal protesting and go on a Conservative rampage or will you be clammering for the cops to bust a few Conservative heads? This is a photo forum, not a political forum. Where's the moderator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 "Where's the moderator?!? WAAAACK!!! Where's the moderator!?! Toss me a cracker!" Sounds like a parrot. Thomas, if you can't tolerate opinions come on over to the b&w forums where we brook no dissent. Strictly business. You wanna hang out on a forum where the heart of the pursuit is inherently social, and therefore political, in nature, either dive in or don't. But quit being a wet blanket. I dunno 'bout these other folks but I need someplace to stretch my brain after advising newbies for the umpteenth time how to push Tri-X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cenelsonfoto Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 "Will you be so willing to let Conservatives off the hook when they get fed up with Liberal protesting and go on a Conservative rampage or will you be clammering for the cops to bust a few Conservative heads?" Who needs the stupid cops? I can whip a Republican's ass with my arms behind my back. Just ask yer dad. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman458 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Lex wrote<p> <i>You wanna hang out on a forum where the heart of the pursuit is inherently social, and therefore political, in nature, either dive in or don't. But quit being a wet blanket.</i><p> My appologies Lex. I thought these forums were about photography. If I can join in a good political rant and the moderator isn't going to put his boot in my neck, I'm quite comfortable with conservative politics:)<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman458 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 CE Nelson wrote<p> <i>Who needs the stupid cops? I can whip a Republican's ass with my arms behind my back. Just ask yer dad.</i><p> I know you're just funnin but dad was killed in Dec of 57 as a SAC bomber pilot, piloting a B-47 while on a SAC mission in Deluth, MN. The crew chose to ride the crippled (three engines out on one side) bird in, for the safety of those below and didn't make it.<p> The point of the comment, people are taking advantage of the protest clause that others have provided for in that one side of the isle is protesting something, somewhere, all the time, cause their whiney butts aren't getting everything, their way. It does get old after a while and becomes nothing more then a bunch of whiney, complainy people that are spoiled rotten by the generosity the system provides for who are taking advantage of the system.<p> You know, those who plan these things, are already planning their next protest march. There's nothing spontaneous about this behavior. What's gonna be the next thing to take to the streets about?<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacsa Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 :o) I'm sorry if it seemed that I give a history lesson. I'm just too nostalgic and a bit ignorant when see people complain about these annoyances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_martin2 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I would rather people protest than get so frustrated with the system and start using weopons to be heard. I grew up in a place that prepares for doing just that. The town I grew up in has weapon cache dotted all around. It does not matter if your a libral or a concervitive. I say voice you opinion in the street through non viloent means when the government chooses to ingnor you because you have a view point that sounds like the other party. I have tried many time to ask in this thread about ethics in PJ with no response. all you people want to do is argue the political end of the protest and this is exactly what politcion want from you. they dont want you to discues the substance of the issue. becasue if we talk about the real issue thier just might be something done about it. so please learn how to talk about the issue so America can be progressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel_garcia5 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 You knew the risks and consequences that were involved when you decided to protest. That's what makes this country great! You can protest but get out of line of don?t listen and you go to jail. Along the same lines you knew that photographers were buzzing around what did you expect? Why don't you want to be photographed in jail? Ashamed? If you believed so strongly in your protest then you should be proud to stand up for what you believe in. Even photographed. Those dumb IMPRESSINOABLE 18 year olds you were with, why where they embarrassed? I'll tell you why, they don't really know why they were there or what they were protesting against. That's why. How can an overweight 6ft woman have nerve damage from plastic handcuffs? Take about frivolous lawsuits. I'd love to see the lawyer that takes this case. Please! And NO, I don't know what it's like to be handcuffed. Why you might ask? Because I've never been arrested that?s why. I hope the judge throws your lawsuit out. Sounds like you got exactly what you deserved. And for the record, I'm a no nonsence registered democrat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_martin2 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I decided to dive into this one. Manuel, no one deserve to be hurt. it does not matter if a person is over wieght. we can all be injured if the element are put into place. maybe you need to meet some people with disablies so you will have a better understanding of what pain does to someones lifestyle. Manuel, drive through a bad part of town in a beat up car with a tail light out. dress down a little and dont shave for a few days. leave behind anything that will tale the police what you do. that includes your driver lic. just memorize your DL & SS# I think you'll have a better understanding of what goes on in the world outside of your house, family and friends. are you ashamend to discuss the issue of ethics? or would you rather continue with the same crap about "you had it coming" like the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudia__ Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 both small people and large people are susceptible to nerve damage. what makes manuel think physique has a bearing on this? try this experiment....take a plastic cable tie and tighten it around your wrist pretty tight...then report back about how your hand feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 My bottom line opinion...shooting is a personal choice. Even if patently insensitive, if you're in public that's the way it is particularly when its news like that. I can't encourage feelings of victimization for being photographed in that situation, though they could have backed off and I probably would have. So be it. But as far as the police activity, that is something to beef about and get redress on. It looks as if the crimnal court is not very pleased with the City at the moment. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel_garcia5 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Stephen, I'm not making fun of overweight people. The particular point I was trying to make about the nerve damage is this. I find it hard to beleive that plastic hand cuff can cause nerve damage. If that were the case I'm sure the ACLU would be all over it. How many people a year do you think get arrested and get plastic handcuffs? I think she crying wolf. She has the right to protest and I have the right to say I think she's crying wolf. As for people with disabilties, I've volenteered thru out my life and have worked with disabilities and have nothing but respect for their daily struggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman458 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 The good news is, the nerve damage is temporary and over the next couple of months will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_martin2 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Manuel, plastic handcuffs are designed to be strong and ratched down. goto a uniform shop where police buy thier gear or ask a patrolman to show you some plastic cuffs. the reason you may not see the ACLU sueing over plastic cuffs is because a lot of police have some amount of humanity. and they understand this will show clear abuse. plus most of the time hand cuffs are on a person for no more than 20min. at a time. once a suspect is transported to a jail the handcuff are either taken off or replaced by the jailers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel_smith6 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 You were in the sewer known as New York City, what else would you expect? Move somewhere you can see the stars, breathe clean air & walk a mile or so without bumping into people. New York & the idiots there deserve what happens to them. As for bitching about the cuffs being too tight, too damn bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtdnyc Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 <Daniel Smith: New York & the idiots there deserve what happens to them. > A silly comment any day of the year and a disgusting one to make on 9/11, when so many New Yorkers are remembering the deaths of thousands of civilians and hundreds of emergency workers who were trying to rescue them. I don't know where in the world you're from, or if Smith is even your real name, but your comment is the most offensive remark I have ever read on any thread on photo.net. I would hope that all who have participted in this thread, no matter where you stood on Heather's initial question, will join in condemning Daniel Smith's hateful remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_martin2 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Well said Jonathan Davis. I completly agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas_griego Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 It's election time here in HK so I have shooting my ass off and did not get a chance to respond sooner...<p><i>"I think it is un-ethical for a PJ to aggrivate the sitiuation. this is not getting the true story when the people start focusing thier attiention on you as the photographer. I think the PJ should step back until the attention is focused back onto the story they are thier covering."</i><p>I believe on this point I agree with you. I've seen it happen many times where a press scrum can escalate a situation. When shooting it's a call that has to be made at a given moment - sometimes easier said than done. In Hong Kong the press pack can be more like a wolf pack - often full of idiots that run after police vans with flashes blazing away, cameras held way above their heads firing directly into blacked out or mirrored reflective surfaces of the police transportation vans. These shots are useless, won't get run and don't show anything other than photographers hyped on adrenalin - all for the absolute peanuts local guys make working for the Chinese newspapers. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.<p>On the other hand if a bunch of protesters are hauled into a van/booked/arrested/detained/beaten etc etc. - it's an image that might be/is news worthy (and could get picked up an run)- if they are asking the press to stop that's up to them - but if I am shooting I am under no obligation to stop. Again it's a spur of the moment call. <p>In Heather's case in particular - she wanted the photographers to stop - err... <p>tough howdy-doody.<p> Again - this is the risk that comes with protesting. You deal with it. It can be shocking, it can be emotionally trying - but it's part and parcel with the territory. For the most part you don't hear PJ's whining about being gassed, trampled, clubbed etc. - they know by and large that it comes with the territory of protests/riots (I am thinking more of Asia here than the US really) - they suck it up and get on with things. <p>So while Heather and the other people being processed were not in the mood to be photographed - that makes scant little difference to me if I am the one shooting - they are still fair game. <p>When you show up at a protest there is no exemption form saying you agree only to be photographed if things go your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beauh44 Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Wow, this thread takes me back! I can't even remember the dates - I'm guessing 1973 or 1974, but I was in high school and hitch-hiked to Washington DC to cover an Impeach Nixon demonstration. Somewhere along the way I sprained the hell out of my ankle, went to some back-water hospital and was given a few tylenol and some crutches. (Man, I was *tough*! :) After arriving at the demonstration the next day, things turned ugly as they often did back then and the police began using batons and tear gas to get their point across and disperse the crowd. I figured I better crutch my ass out of there, and I did, but not without getting a face-full of gas first. (What kind of cop sprays tear gas - ok, maybe it was mace - on a 10th-grader on crutches, trying to get out of the way?) Anyhoo, as I recall, the catalyst for the (over)use of force was some guy who grabbed the mic to the PA system and began chanting "F*** NIXON! F*** NIXON!" Not long after that, all hell broke loose. Sooo... Did I put myself in that position? Absolutely and I knew the possible consequences. Does that mean the cops handled it well and did "the right thing"? No, I can't say that they did - or certainly not the smart thing. If there are no consequences to the police behaving badly, they'll continue to do so. So I don't look at Heather's possible lawsuit as frivolous; I think of it sort of like checks and balances in a system that needs them. In short, yes Heather might have expected this to happen, but she didn't deserve poor treatment and if indeed the police handled the situation badly I think she should sue them. What other recourse would she have? (Or anyone else mistreated by the police?) As citizens we have precious few resources available to us to put the brakes on the bad apples of law inforcement as it is and it's not like she's doing it to get rich. Yes, I'm glad cops are around, and yes most of them are good people... but certainly not all of them. Just a rhetorical question: Gee, I wonder why no one protested the Democrat's convention? No, those preppies wearing suits in the background and holding up the "Four more years" signs don't count! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_felix Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I can't believe the responses I hear on this thread, some pros and some cons about what happen to the orginal poster. We as photographers ( assuming all here on photo DOT net dabble with the camera ) should stand behind our own, for expressing their free will of the speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_. Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 don't know why i checked in but since i am here... maria - i am with you. no sense of talking. ray. - wonderful comments and wonderful sensse of humor. now heather - i don't know how to answer your questions. i am very sorry and i am deeply saddened by the event and abuse from cops. i can only say that i wouldn't personally feel right to continue photographying when people voiced the objection but then again, i am not making a living making news as some of us do. police state and dictatorship is everywhere, including the great usa. it happens often in this country which makes us no better than a communist ussr or china. no matter how much we like to think we are better off, we are not much. i have lived in both china and usa now and, really, i mean, really, you butt-heads need to get off this computer screen or the fox news tv and get out of this country and see the truth yourself. not with tourist groups or stay with us malitary camps. you don't see shit that way. peace, brothers and sisiter. we might be going for 4-more-years of torture. stay connected. we will need each other to get through the hardship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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