Uneven development issue

<p>Hello,<br />I have been struggling with uneven development issues for some time now and wasted so many films and money in test rolls, but I still have no clue about what is going on. Hope some of you can help.The sides of my negs are over-developed and the effect is much more visible in bright highlights, more specifically the sky area when it’s a clear blue day. When I use stainless steal tank and reels this phenomena seems amplified. With the Jobo plastic tank and reels, it is limited in size to the border of the negative but come with some big black blotches.The camera is not the cause of this because different cameras give the same problem.I've tried different developers also (D-76, HC-110, Perceptol, PMK, Prescysol) and only the tanning developers seem to lessen the problem.I thought about agitation but I’ve developed films for years and never had this issue before… Nevertheless it seems like the most probable cause but leaves me totally clueless. I’ve tried more and less agitation but to no effect. When I invert my tank I always twist it to allow lateral flow of the developer. And I always switch directions. 10 seconds is 4 complete inversions (down and up). And agitation every 30s or 1min or semi-stand (every 3min) doesn’t change much. Although less agitation seems to worsen the problem I can’t say for sure and the difference is small.Here are some examples of my test rolls :<br /><br /> <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3046413/fp4%2B%4080N-1D761%2B1SS10min006.jpg" alt="" /><br /> <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3046413/trixHC110F15min016.jpg" alt="" /><br>

and the film that made me aware of the problem:<br>

<br /> <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3046413/ArChi049.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p><br /> Hope someone can help.Thanks.Vania</p>

<p>How much developer in the stainless steel tank? Just enough to cover the reel (15 US fluid ounces), or have you filled it absolutely to the top? You need some air in there, so that agitation will really get the developer moving around.<br>

My hunch would be that you still have under-agitation.</p>

 

<p>It's probably from over agitation. I had the same problem years ago from following the Kodak agit. instructions. Overagit. develops the edges of the film more, making them" thicker". The result is white at the edge of the prints.</p>

<p>If all else fails you may try new reels or tanks but I always like about 1/2 an inch or more extra of chemicals on top of my reel. I do inversions of 4 inversions every minute that is about 10 seconds long. I was getting this problem than I found I was over agitating and also using just the minimum amount of developer. As stated above too much solution in the tank can cause problems also.</p>

<p>Thanks. I use 450ml per roll so there is a little air left. If it's over agitation what would be a proper "rythme" of inversion. Larry you mention 4 inversion for 10s which is what I do. What that too much is it what you do now to solve the over agitation problem? and when you say 4 inversion do you mean 4x down and up ?</p>

<p>One over one down, one over one down, one over one down, one over one down. takes 10 seconds exactly.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I thought about agitation but I’ve developed films for years and never had this issue before…</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So far I've only read restated wives tales about agitation. </p>

<p>What technique are you doing different now than you did when you were getting good results from before?<br>

Is this the same format film as before?<br>

I agree that agitation is the culprit and only the technique is not correct for the film/reels/tank. Jobo recommends prewetting with their tanks even if the film manufacturer says not to. With larger format films one should wait longer between the upright to inverted position before returning to the upright position from inverted to allow the developer to travel the wider distance.</p>

<p>I fill my tanks, stainless and Jobo 2500 series, to the very top with <strong>NO</strong> air space when I do inversion agitation and I only have uneven development problems <strong>IF</strong> I rush the inversions or do not go completely upside down.<br>

I also rotate the tank 2 complete turns to the right at the end of the 1st inversion cycle then to the left at the end of the 2nd inversion cycle.<br>

Try Upright to inverted 1-1000,2-1000,3-1000 return to upright recount then repeat. If the unevenness improves but is not completely corrected increase the count. 3 to 5 inversions should be adequate.</p>

<p>Smog and or haze can give the effect of uneven processing or blotching in the sky areas even on days the haze/smog is faint.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>My wives tale works for me. :) I do pre-rinse but only with some films. Did you recently change films?</p>

<p>Thanks Charles, this is VERY informative!<br>

So 2 things changed. 1st is film format : I always used 120 but went from 6x4,5 to 6x6, and oddly enough my 6x4,5 don't show that problem. I think it is due to the fact the affected sides (left and right on 6x6) would correspond to the top and bottom of a 6x4,5 negative where it won't show as much (or at all). So no help there.<br>

2nd is the ss tank. One of my theory is that it takes so long to pour the developer in a ss tank (15-20sec with the time needed to put the small cap back on) compare to the Jobo (5-10s) and that it may favor uneven development. This is why I tried using the jobo again and realize that the problem was less but definitely there too and with the blotches that made me use ss tank in the first place.<br>

I also uses 5min pre-soak always.<br>

I definitely agitate faster than you description. The fact is that I wait for an extremely brief moment after an inversion before going upright. I invert as recommended in the film darkroom cookbook. One complete inversion with a twist down and up is about 2sec, and I do 4 per 10sec. And I always change the direction of the twist.<br>

I will try your method. Do you agitate that slowly during the first minute also or more vigorously?<br>

As for no air are you certain it is the way to go ? It seems agitation would be more efficient with some air inside.<br>

Finally can you please describe how you fill you ss tank and how long it take for a 2 reels ? I really feel like it's taking me way too much time, almost 20 sec.<br>

Again thank you. V.</p>

<p>No change in film, alway TX400 and FP4+</p>

<p>The only absolute here is that the developer must be in contact with the film to develop it, all other aspects are variable.</p>

<p>I start timing once the developer is in the tank and the cap on. I hold the tank at a 45 degree angle when filling. I only use single 120 reel stainless steel tanks. I have only processed 4x5 in the Jobo doing inversion processing, tank extensions and more reels get manual rotary processing.</p>

<p>I keep my agitation rate somewhat consistent throughout the processing session. Absolute precision is not needed as far as I can tell so I will not state it as such. I do change the agitation rate, invert to upright, for different film sizes only not format size within a film size, ie 6x6 or 6x9 on 120 gets the same rate.</p>

<p>With no air gap in the tank the chemicals do not move as much as they will with one but they move sufficiently to exchange the chemical at the surface of the film and air bells are not a potential problem without an air gap. With an air gap you may need to only pause 3/4 to 1 second between inversion positions and 1 to 1 1/4 without one. </p>

<p>Published inversion rates are like published starting times, starting points. The gap between reel coils with film loaded, the thickness of the coils, the shape, surface smoothness, and tank volume above the reels will all play a part in chemical movement within the tank. The Jobo with its plastic reels may require a slightly longer pause during inversion than the stainless steel tank/reels.</p>

<p>Try a presoak on your next roll 5 minutes in water the same temp as your developer.</p>

<p>I always measure with plain water how much fluid it takes to cover the reel. Then dump that water into a meauring cup and mark the top water line with a magic marker. Label it 120 1-0. 120 1-1 will still reach the mark you created mixed 50/50. No matter what 120 format you use the formula remains the same.<br />Also agitate slow. fast agitation can cause problems.</p>

<p>Over agitation. After filling the tank, give 6 inversions in the first 30 seconds, then one inversion every 30 seconds after that.</p>

<p>With so many suggestions (some conflicting) it is apparent to me that there is no single "right" way to process film in order to achieve acceptably even development. The "right" way is the way that works for you. But how do you go about finding that way. My first suggestion is to photograph clear blue sky as the most severe test as you try to zero in on what works for you. I hesitate to detail "my way" after so many suggestions have been posted but because I went through the same pain you're experiencing here goes. Tank:2 stainless steel 32oz. Reels: 2 S.S. 120 & 1 S.S. 35mm. I develop 1 roll at a time and use all 3 reels regardless of format. Developer: D76 1:1 Quantity: 20 oz. First tank is dedicated to +/- 30 sec presoak for the sole purpose of bringing film and reels to same temp as developer. With film reel on bottom of 3 stack they are dropped into the second tank prefilled with developer. Initial agitation is 30 sec using about 16 inversions (an inversion is tank up side down then right side up with a twisting motion). Thereafter agitation is on the minute with 3 inversions in 10 sec. As you analyze your sky shots realize you are not likely to achieve perfectly even density but be critical of your results and don't be satisfied until you see acceptable results. I would be anxious to hear as to what finally works for you and have clicked on "Notify me of Responses" so I can follow your process. Stick to it until you resolve this problem. It will make your hobby so much more enjoyable.</p>

<p>So less agitation doesn't solve the problem, it actually makes it even worst... Now on top of it I have uneven development streaks in the middle of almost every frames. Some sort of over-developed line that could look like on of those tracks airplanes leaves in the sky.<br>

This is really crazy. I've been developing my own films for more than ten years I even took care of a b&w photo lab for a year and never, ever had any problems before! Now for the last couple of months I can't get anything developed properly. It's just one problem after another.<br>

So I'll try extreme vigorous agitation, something like 1 complete inversion per second, and see what happens.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So less agitation doesn't solve the problem, it actually makes it even worst... Now on top of it I have uneven development streaks in the middle of almost every frames.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Does not surprise me. You will have to experiment technique until you find what works for that tank/reel combination.</p>

<p>And you say it happens the same with 35mm film?</p>

<p>from your scans one would say developer is not flowing properly through the central part of film. Borders are lighter in your scans hence more developed (accepting the fixing is ok).</p>

<p>Is film completely straight and each turn parallel when loaded onto the spirals?</p>

Only on 6x6 never happend on 35mm but I rarely use that format. Never on 6x4,5 either... Agirating more seems to help but I'm not

there yet...

<p>I haven't jumped in here because I'm not an expert on agitation, but I have a DiacordG that does this. It turned out to be a light leak that was very mild (but I minded it). I started using the case and no more problem. I really don't think this is your problem, but I'm just throwing it out, because they look similar.</p>

<h2 >Problem solved... another one arise...</h2>

 

 

<blockquote >Hello all,<br /><br />First let me thank you all for your inputs (right or wrong), they really cheered me up and helped me remain coherent and methodical about all this (as opposed to feeling doomed and making the same mistakes again and again).<br /><br />So definitely an under-agitation problem in two ways :<br /><br />1st. Not enough inversions during the first 30s/1min. And maybe after that but I need to test for this and know if, with proper agitation at first, I can slow down afterwards to gain back some control over contrast and grain. As well as see if I can use semi-stand (3min intervals) agitation again which I find very rewarding.<br /><br />2nd, and probably most important, I didn't apply enough force during my inversions. They needed to be more brisk. Kind of like trying to empty a yoghurt pot (well maybe not as much but you get the idea). This is probably more true with stainless steel tanks than with the Jobo ones which offers a better flow of the chemistry (hence the fact that my problem was more obvious with the ss tanks).<br /><br />Well now that I get a perfectly even development a new problem arose <img title="Sad" src="http://www.apug.org/forums/images/smilies/newones/sad.png" border="0" alt="" /> :<br />It happened before and when I mentioned it I thought it was due to my testing of extremely slow agitation. Unfortunately it was not and it happened again with my new proper and energetic method on my last test roll.<br />As you can see on the picture there is a thick white line going across the image showing over development. I darkened it and added contrast to make it more obvious. It is continuous on all frames as if a drop of developer acting more intensely crossed the whole film. But the direction of the line in the developing tank is parallel to the ground and the lid.</blockquote>

 

 

<p><img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3046413/trix_HC110_1%2B70_15m007.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>It only happened twice and only in my recent agitation testings. Since then, I just finished developing one of my week end film in PMK and there is nothing of the sort.<br />What the two developments had in common was<br />1. The use of HC-110 freshly diluted from syrup. Can it be possible that this is due to one drop of syrup than didn't dissolve well ? Is sounds like a stretch especially considering the direction of the line (parallel to the ground). Does HC110 needs time after dilution in order to dissolve properly (I've just started using this developer so I'm not familiar with it) ? Or maybe a good shake ? I only stir it.<br />2. I didn't use my usual demineralized water but just plain tap water for one and plain tap water filtered with a Brita for the other.<br />Appart from that I'm clueless... <img title="Wondering" src="http://www.apug.org/forums/images/smilies/newones/wondering.png" border="0" alt="" /><br /><br />Can that artifact still be due to some improper agitation ?<br /><br />Again thank you all for your help, and I hope someone has an idea about this one...<br /><br />Vania</p>

<p>1. I mix HC110 from concentrate using a ink cartridge refilling syringe. I measure the water then add the HC110 and stir until until the color is uniform and there is no visible concentrate detectable in the mixing container then allow it to stand for 1 to 2 minutes or until all air bubbles have dissipated. <br>

The film pre wet is occurring during this time.<br>

2. Water impurities usually only leave spots on the dried film.</p>

<p>Pre wet the film for 1 to 5 minutes while mixing the developer or prior to pouring the developer in.<br>

Pour the chemicals in and out in a consistent flow.</p>

 

<p>Out of the blue was that film ever in an environment where it may have been X-rayed?</p>

<p>Thanks. I do use a pre-wet and the working solution was made around 10 min before pouring it, although I did stir it mildly. No x-rays.</p>

<p>OK</p>