Negatives Grey (even around sprocket holes)

<p>Hello, <br /><br />I am having problems with my film being Grey/Muddy between frames and sprocket holes. <br /><br />I've been developing film for over 5 years and this is the first time I've encountered this problem.<br />I know it's not the film because I've developed Tri x/ Neopan 400 and Orwo n74 (all having the same problems) <br /><br />SO It has to be a problem with HOW i'm doing it? (unsure though because I have never had problems with this before)<br /><br />I will take you step by step with what I do when I develop film?<br /><br />1. Pre soak 10mins<br /><br />2. Develop in Rodinal 1:100 with agitation for the first minute and then at the 30 minute mark for 15 seconds.<br /><br />( I do not use stop bath and never have so I don't know if this would recently throw off my results?)<br>

3. Fix for 5-10 minutes (again always have fixed for this long as I used to be paranoid about underfixing my film) <br /><br />4. Remove from fixer and rinse with photo flo diluted 2drops for 1L also mix in half a cap of 99% rubbing alcohol (now that's something recently i've started to do because I've had some bad stains on my film as of late.)<br /><br />5. Rinse under running coldish tap water for 10-30 minutes <br /><br />6. Squeegee, Dry and yup that's it?<br /><br /><br />Please help!<br />I'm getting annoyed and it's not a huge deal as I print in the darkroom and don't scan anything <br />but I have a feeling it's effecting my photo quality making my negatives less contrasty or dull etc. <br /><br />I dunno <br /><br />Thanks <br /><br />clarke <br>

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<p>This may seem odd but Your fixer is fried. Fix longer or re fix the old negatives in new fixer. Fixing is the thing most under do.</p>

<p>Hmmmm Okay Thanks Larry. <br /><br />Do you think my fixer is contaminated due to not using stop bath?<br /><br />I also re-use the fixer from when I'm printing and quite possibly ( actually for certain )<br />There is cross contamination from my developer to my fixer?<br /><br /><br />Ha I'm actually embarrassed i'm posting this. <br />I should probably get a middle tray in between my developer and fix for a "stop"<br /><br />Also if I re-fix won't the photos already be toast because they were exposed to light after the first initial "fix"?<br /><br />I've tried re-fixing them in the past but I think I was too late?<br /><br />Thanks Again<br /><br />Regards <br /><br />Clarke </p>

<p>Refix, and if you're using Kodak powdered fixer or hardening fixer, fix longer in the future, as Larry suggested.</p>

<p>But if you're using rapid fixer from liquid concentrate, something else may be the problem. Fresh rapid fixer needs only a few minutes to clear film.<br>

<br /> <br />Also, you presoak for 10 minutes? Is that a typo? There's rarely any reason to presoak at all, and never for 10 minutes.</p>

<p>Presoaking is mostly an obsolete practice dating back to less sophisticated emulsions on large format sheet film. Presoaking was tried to minimize problems with uneven development in very fast acting developers in open trays, usually when developing times were under three minutes or so. However the presoak softened emulsions and left them more vulnerable to scratching.</p>

<p>For 35mm and medium format films developed in tank/reel systems, it's best to use developing times of 5-10 minutes. This ensures plenty of time for even development without any need for presoaking. In the past Ilford has specifically recommended against presoaking their films in most situations.</p>

<p>The only films I pre-rinse are some European films with water soluble dyes that would turn my reusable Diafine or Microphen stock solution bright blue-green. I don't bother pre-rinsing Kodak or Ilford films - it serves no purpose and might make things worse. There's rarely any reason to presoak most b&w films for normal tank/reel processing with one-shot developers. Any sensitizing and anti-halation dyes will be discarded.</p>

<p>First, 35mm black & white film has a gray base. This is intentional as the extra gray density reduces the likelihood of light piping a diffusion of fogging light reverberating within the film base. This does no harm as it is a uniform density. That being said, it is possible the film is fogged by exposure to heat, chemical fumes, or radiation. Keep in mind that the fog level of film elevates from the time of manufacture. Again, most fogging, if uniform, is harmless. A light intentional fog is often induced to raise the ISO. This is called hyper sensitization.</p>

<p>It is likely the film is incompletely fixed. If true you can salvage by re-fixing. OK to re-fix using your current fix solution. You should test your fixer before your next session. In full room light, swish a short piece of undeveloped film in a saucer filled with the fixer. Most save the film tongue for this purpose. Time how long it takes to go from opaque to clear. The fix time is twice the clear time.</p>

<p>It’s OK not to use a stop but --- the stop quickly arrests the action of the developer. Additionally it prolongs the life of the fixer solution .This is true because the developer is alkaline and some rides piggyback into the fix. The fix is acid and the acidity is neutralized by developer carryover. The stop is acetic acid and this is one of the ingredients of the fixer solution. </p>

<p>No re fixing will fix them no pun intended. I use water stop and even with rapid fixer I use 10-15 minutes in fixer. Over fixing is not a myth but it takes hours not minutes. It is a common problem don't feel stupid. I learned just like you .</p>

<p>BTW, I noticed you're using Rodinal and stand development. This may increase grain and base fog with some films. It's fairly normal. Adding a pinch of borax can reduce grain and fog with Rodinal for stand development. But, arguably, it isn't Rodinal anymore when borax is added. However I like the results so I do add a pinch of borax for stand developing Tri-X in very dilute Rodinal - usually 1:200 for two hours or so.</p>

<p>Oh okay <br />Thanks <br /><br />Yeah I kind of got in the habit of pre-soaking from when I used to use the Jobo Press Kits <br />when developing c41 films. <br /><br />I never thought it would hurt, I don't ALWAYS do it. <br />But thanks for the tip on the pre-soaking</p>

<p>Listen to me and Lex.. :D</p>

 

<p>Nice thanks for all the tips guys. <br /><br />I specifically created an account to ask this question. Ha!<br /><br />I will try and dev some stuff tonight (as I shoot like winogrand and have 20+ rolls to develop at any given time) <br /><br /><br /></p>

<p> You seem to be better than some. Only 20?</p>

<p>Ha 20+ for black and white 35mm <br /><br />I have 30+ 120mm c41 and e6<br />and still some 4x5 slide from two summers ago i've never processed. <br /><br />I've given up on color, not my thing. Shot a lot of it in the past.<br /><br />But I can't/won't print color (yet)<br />So I'm trying to focus just on black and white (and have been for the past year)</p>

<p>I agree with many of the previous replies. It could either be gray base film, fogging, or under fixing. Sometimes you can tell from the look, but it is harder for us to know.</p>

<p>From my book (Kodak Film in Rolls), Plux-X has a base density of 0.2, Tri-X maybe 0.25.<br>

Seems that paper backed roll films don't have the gray base that 35mm has. <br>

Diafine states not to pre-soak. It depends on solution A soaking into the emulsion, and it won't soak in as well if it is already wet. Other than that, it probably isn't bad.</p>

<p><strong>I've been developing film for over 5 years and this is the first time I've encountered this problem.</strong><br /><strong>I know it's not the film because I've developed Tri x/ Neopan 400 and Orwo n74 (all having the same problems)</strong><br>

<strong><br /></strong>The previous advice is really good but something has changed to cause the situation that is different from what it was. Try no presoak, at least 30 seconds in a stop bath and fresh fixer. I have recovered form a lousy fix bath with re fixing but no guarantees. I'm guessing weak fixer is the problem.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>Why use Photo Flo BEFORE rinsing? I always use afterwards. I never squeegee for fear of scratching. Should I reconsider?</p>

<p>It you look at it in reflected light, underfixed film usually looks a little light, where developed and fixed (such as fogged) looks dark.<br>

Pretty often I use old film. Just a few days ago, I developed a roll from 1956 (not exposed by me, that is older than I am). There is a little fogging, but I am not surprised. <br>

If the film is old, or has gotten unusually warm, such as sitting in a sunny car, expect a little fogging. <br>

35mm Tri-X does have a gray base, 120 Tri-X doesn't, if that helps.</p>

<p>Hi Clarke<br>

Your pre-soak time seems excessive but that isn't the problem. I pre-soak films often for a minute or so but increase the developing time accordingly (about 10%). Rodinal as Lex says is prone to base fog issues. The elephant in the room is likely fixing time. No matter what fixer you use, powder or liquid rapid fixer (I would recommend it be a hardening fix for films), prepare it according to the instructions and keep track the number of films you fix with it (I stick a chart on the outside of that bottle). The fixing time is always TWICE the clearing time, or a little longer, no question about it. Clearing time is determined before you start processing by taking the "tail" of film you cut off to load the reel and drop it in your working strength fixer and time how long it takes to clear or remove the emulsion from the base, easy as that. Takes a few minutes while you prepare your solutions but worth every second. The clearing time will increase as the fixer does more film, but twice that time is the fixing time for that roll. The one litre of fixer when properly stored and used often properly fixes fifteen to twenty plus rolls before exhaustion starts creeping in. The fix time then is shorter when fixer is fresh and longer when it gets used more. The package may say 5 to 10 minutes but this is a suggestion, if you want the film fixed accurately, then I recommend you determine the clearing time to figure out how long to fix your films.<br>

On that note, I would recommend you TRIPLE the clearing time if the film is Kodak Tmax or Ilford Delta as these films are tougher to clear. Three times the clearing time is not too long.<br>

Lastly, you are messing the fixer up a bit by not using a stop bath. As water does not stop development as effectively as acetic acid and water, the fixer has to complete the job. I only use indicator stop, as directed and make a gallon at a time since the same stop is used for printing. The stop is re-used over and over until the colour changes from pale yellow to purple which can take a long, long time (it doesn't deteriorate like other solutions, only through use). You can continue using plain water but stop bath is definitely better.<br>

Cheers, and happy shooting and developing!</p>

 

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<p>On that note, I would recommend you TRIPLE the clearing time if the film is Kodak Tmax or Ilford Delta as these films are tougher to clear. Three times the clearing time is not too long.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />The clearing time for T-Max should be appropriately longer, but yes it is much slower. If you use other than a T-grain film to test clearing time, you might underfix.<br>

I use the longest of the time range given for T grain films.</p>

<p>T grain films are 3x the normal time to clear even in Rapid fixer I have learned from real life. 15 minutes for me with them is almost on the short side. This includes Neopan 400 and Fomapan 200 though the Fomapan 200 is a mix of both it seems to also need the full time.</p>

<p>Hello Peers, <br /><br />Clarke here again. <br /><br />SO! <br /><br />I re-fixed some negatives and....... no luck. <br />Recovered nothing (now I have 30 some odd negative strips of 5 hanging in my darkroom)<br />I think I should be able to salvage them (at least some are printable, even though completely grey and foggy) I'm sure if I throw a +5 filter I can pass off the over contrasted, grey flat negative as "artistic".<br>

<br /><br />But I'm grateful for the help and tips. <br />So thank you guys now I know the trick for the clearing time. Also never knew about the Tmax and Delta films. I don't shoot Tmax I actually hate the look of it. But from time to time I shoot delta 3200 at 3200,6400 or 12500. <br>

<br />I've never been very good at organizing (I sniff my fixer to see if it smells like salt and vinegar chips and if it does then well... I continue to use it)<br /><br />Hahaha well it worked for a while now I guess I'm facing the consequences of poor lab maintenance and organizational skills. <br /><br />One last question, I assume it has nothing to do with the negative problems but I may as well ask anyways. I push all my film, I never ever shoot my film at box speed. I guess I Just like the look of most films pushed. SO neopan 400 I usually shoot at 800 or 1600. Tri x I shoot Winogrand speed ( 1250 ) haha BUT will me pushing my films be something that may have contributed to this problem? <br /><br />Looking over the same negatives that I developed in this particular batch (I just throw eight rolls of 100-800 iso films into the Paterson Multi Reel 8 tank and develop for about an hour with Rodinal 1:100) <br />The "foggy" negatives were the Neopan NOT the Orwo n74.. (which was shot at 400 by my brother not me) Makes me wonder, why the Neopan came out foggy and the Orwo N74 clear? <br /><br /><br /><br />Wow I as I type this out I sound more and more unorganized and pathetic ha! <br />( I will stop sniffing my fixer now )<br />Okay well in closing thanks for all of your help and advice. <br /><br />Regards <br /><br />Clarke <br /><br /> </p><div></div>

<p>Oh that photograph that I uploaded in my previous response is the film after I RE-Fixed. </p>

<p> I I wonder.</p>

<p>From my first comment:<br />"The fixing time is always TWICE the clearing time, or a little longer, no question about it. Clearing time is determined before you start processing by taking the "tail" of film you cut off to load the reel and drop it in your working strength fixer and time how long it takes to clear or remove the emulsion from the base... if you want the film fixed accurately, then I recommend you determine the clearing time to figure out how long to fix your films.<br />On that note, I would recommend you TRIPLE the clearing time if the film is Kodak Tmax or Ilford Delta as these films are tougher to clear. Three times the clearing time is not too long."<br>

I cannot overstate this about fixing films, determine the clearing with a piece of that film as I mentioned, if the fixer is a fresh batch, the emulsion can completely clear in as little as a couple of minutes, I would fix that film for 5 minutes or if it is Tmax/Delta film, 8 minutes. As the fixer dissolves more silver from the films you process, the clearing times will get longer, so you can adjust the fix times as necessary. It is foolproof.<br /><br />No offence Clarke, but sniffing the fixer is not a terribly accurate way of judging the stuff, it will tell you something and perhaps give you a faint buzz as you start your processing.<br /><br />Since I started developing black and white films in the 1970's, I have learned from experience. I have learned that haste makes waste in the darkroom, and also often yields poor results. I almost always use developers at dilutions such as 1+1, 1+3 etc. and discard them as I never trusted reusing developing solutions though I know some people do. Personal preference. I have always used indicator stop bath until it is expired, always made film fixer up a litre at a time, and recorded how many rolls I get (interestingly when I fix more T-grain films my yield drops a bit but 15 - 20 rolls on average per litre). I swear by hypo clearing agent since I built my current darkroom as I'd like my films and prints to hang around a while. My personal archival film processing steps can be posted if you want me to share them. <br>

By the way Clarke, I am a big Garry Winogrand fan too as he is in my top ten photographers who influenced me so I enjoy those references. He passed way too young.</p><div></div>

<p>In my tests a liter of Ilford rapid fixer diluted to film strength, per Ilford's instructions, was good for 20-24 rolls of most films - Tri-X, HP5+, FP4+, etc.; but only 10 rolls of T-Max 100 and/or 400. I didn't use much Delta 100, 400 or 3200 at the time I ran those tests but didn't see any indication that Delta films would exhaust rapid fixer as quickly as T-Max films do.</p>

<p>Easiest way to keep track of usage: I mix two batches of rapid fixer - one for T-Max films, one for everything else. I put a strip of masking tape on the bottles and a tick mark for each usage.</p>

<p>It doesn't do any harm to fix for three times or even 10 times the clearing time. Some folks will even mix two batches of fixer and refix fixed negatives in the second batch. But it's probably not necessary either, as long as the fixer isn't exhausted. And if the rapid fixer is exhausted, no amount of soaking in fixer will do any good - when rapid fixer is exhausted, it fails almost immediately and completely. I've read some theories that the increase in iodide sensitizing dyes after the 1980s may contribute to the differences in fixing times for T-Max films. Regarding extended fixing time, I ran a couple of informal tests soaking developed negatives in rapid fixer at film strength for several <em>days</em> - I saw no evidence of any harm done. So if you don't mind risking extended wet times, which may make the emulsion vulnerable to scratches, it probably doesn't matter if you leave the film in rapid fixer for 30-60 minutes.</p>

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<p>"BUT will me pushing my films be something that may have contributed to this problem?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It might contribute to the perception of foggy or muddy negatives.<br>

<br>

"Pushed" film is underexposed and thin. Pushing affects contrast and grain, but won't restore non-existent shadow detail. You'll see negatives with large expanses of virtually clear areas lacking detail. Depending on the film, developer and fixer, the film base may be clear and neutral (less likely nowadays, but common with old Tri-X and other films), but is more likely to show a slight residual purplish tint. Add the effects of underexposure and pushing with Rodinal and you'll also see an increase in base fog and grain, both of which will make the underexposed areas appear muddy.<br>

<br>

The effects may be exaggerated if there's a significant delay between exposure and development. The latent image in underexposed film is less stable. Faint shadow detail may be recovered if the film is developed immediately after exposure; but it may be unrecoverable if we wait a month or even a week.<br>

<br>

Regarding Winogrand's photos, his technique may have made some of his long-undeveloped film practically useless. I've seen some of his prints at a local museum. He or his printer had to resort to some pretty extensive dodging/burning to rescue some images. I can imagine it would be almost impossible to recover some of his images now that decades have passed since the film was underexposed but never developed.<br>

<br>

One reason Vivian Maier's undeveloped rolls of film produced good photos is because she didn't routinely underexpose her film. Properly exposed film will keep for years; underexposed film must be developed promptly or the intended image may be lost.<br>

<br>

Years ago when I had a permanent darkroom space set up I could develop film daily, and I often pushed film - usually Tri-X to 1200-1600 and T-Max 400 to 1600-3200. I liked the contrasty, grainy look. The longest I ever waited to develop a roll of film was a month, and even after a month some of my underexposed and pushed film was very disappointing. Nowadays I no longer have space for a permanent darkroom and can develop film in batches only once or twice a year. So I no longer underexpose film in hopes of rescuing images with pushing. Even my normally exposed rolls of C-41 process XP2 Super were very disappointing when I waited two or three years to have the film processed.<br>

<br>

Personally I don't think Rodinal is a good choice for pushing, especially with stand development. I'll use very dilute Rodinal for stand development, but only with film that is more or less normally exposed, not underexposed. I use it for the perceived compensating effect to tame excessive contrast, especially with nighttime photos. And as I mentioned earlier I'll usually add a pinch of borax to help minimize problems with base fog and grain. Works great with Tri-X, HP5+ and FP4+ for nighttime long exposure photos.<br>

<br>

For pushing I've settled on Microphen, usually stock solution or 1+1. But there are other good developers for pushing which will give better results than Rodinal: many folks recommend Ilford DDX, Kodak T-Max and Xtol developers, Acufine, and others from Clayton, Speedibrews and other makers. Even HC-110 will usually deliver better results from pushed Tri-X than Rodinal. Less grain, less base fog, less muddy clear areas, same snappy contrast.</p>