Kodak resurgence in Film

Do any one think Kodak are going to a phase and do decided to go back to

producing film again to complete with Agfa, Fuji, and Ilford. Ilford left and

came back and they have never back. Do you think Kodak will finally wake up and

smell the develpoer. Rufus

It's not going to be difficult to compete with Agfa... On a more serious note, no, not without a change in administration at Kodak.

- Randy

one way

if kodak spins off a smaller companmy that treats film as a niche product like some of the small european companies do.

it might still be called kodak but would be a different company.

film makes a lot of money for kodak, yet they want to concentrate on newer things. do they have good scientists/engineers and inmept management?

I'm lost here. Agfa has stopped producing film or are they completely out of business. The only thing that, as far as I know, Kodak has stopped producing completely is B&W paper.

They've just updated their "Porta" line of color films (See Shutterbug, May 2007), they're still producing: color paper, color and B&W chemicals, and B&W and color film.

Kodak has undergone a restructuring - again. They moved all of their film related businesses into one unit. If it were me doing the restructuring, this is why I would do it:

1) To show the public and shareholders that the film business is losing money. There's huge resistance from all corners for Kodak to leave the film business.

2) Package up the film business for a sale.

Don't forget, George Eastman invented the KODAK camera because he wanted to place photography in the average person's hands and out of the studio. His invention of roll film (I think he did that too.) was to enable his philosophy. Digital just makes his dream completely come true - now, the photo labs are gone. (There, I did it! I just started .....)

I am a HUGE film lover! A Kodak fan especially. That being said, digital is improving leaps and bounds, and getting chemicals is getting harder and harder every year.

Here I am in Metro Atlanta and there's only one or two stores where I can get chemicals to process film.

Mail order? Have you been up to B&H lately? There's this statement saying something like, "Due to shipping restrictions, we cannot ship this item at this time." Other mail order folks aren't saying anything, but I wonder if they're just not posting it.

I don't know. I'm sure there will be film still around: it'll just be a really niche area.

I don't think their management is inept. They're serving the people who for whatever reason own the company. EK's been fairly stable around $25/share for the past four years while paying its owners about 2% dividend. That tells a story.

They're paying the dividend to stabilize the price (that's what dividends are for) while they streamline (strip) the company to make it easier to sell the name. Seems obvious. They wouldn't be paying a dividend if they saw themselves as a "new things" company, they'd use that money for plant, research, and marketing. They see Kodak as a brand, little more.

Ultimately, the CEO's responsibility to the company's owners is undoubtedly to sell EK at much better than $25/share. Shareholders will probably patiently wait for that sale as long as they get 2% and managers maintain earnings.

Kodak is not leaving the film business. This is just FUD. The management is very capable and

have said they do not intend to stop supplying film. They have had to cut down their 80,000

strong workforce however and make cuts due to the switch to digital, which is not Kodaks

fault dont forget. They can only sell what people want to buy.

They'll make film only as long as they need the film earnings.

If something else takes off, making enough earnings to replace film earnings, they'll dump film...because it involves lots of labot and big factories. However, I doubt they'll ever have enough earnings from digital or their other markets to replace film.

The US is sliding into recession (or stagflation,if mortgage and card defaults get worse). The Fed can't raise rates for both economic and political reasons. Meanwhile Europe has been inflating, and their central banks have already spoken of raising rates. That will sharply strengthen the already increasingly strong Euro.

That means a further decline of the dollar against the Euro. Dollar-priced goods will get cheaper, hopefully strengthening exports from the US. And labor will get cheaper due to recession. It's not "disinflation" any more.

However there's a nightmare possibility: We could experience "stagflation," where the economy is dead and people are defaulting on cards and mortgages, forcing interest rates up when we can least afford it. That would strengthen the dollar (high rates do that), hurting exports. Kodak would prefer recession.

I wouldn't want to be Ilford, trying to sell against a cheapening dollar and into an increasingly desperate American retail market. But I might want to be Kodak in a recession, increasingly able to export, with ever-cheaper labor. Of course, the European market enjoys protective tariffs, so we can expect increasing tension between Washington and Brussels. Happily the new President won't bring Texas baggage to the inevitable negotiations.

The trouble is, Kodak is a multinational corp (like every other corp these days).... Come to think of it, as far as I know, their film division is completely in Rochester, NY. So, a falling dollar may indeed help the film unit. Hmmmm...

<p/>

As far as digital cameras:

<a href=http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolog/news/kodak_outsources_digital_camera_manufacturing.php>Kodak outsources camera manufacturing</a>

Yes, I think it's still Rochester, though isn't it also China? Ilford's "Swiss" paper factory is now Chinese, but I think the film's still made in England.

US currency Vs Chinese doesn't make a difference: Yuan and Dollar are officially linked nearly perfectly, so if Dollar declines, so does Yuan (unless something profound happens geopolitically).

Walmart is its own virtual nation now, seeming to believe US laws don't apply to them...also worth considering. I think they could totally kill film all by themselves, or revive it.

Interestingly, Kodak did pull out of digicam manufacturing, which they surely must have done in Asia somewhere.

Dollar's relationship to Euro is similar to its relationship to Pound.

Asia is a multi-headed beast, with different markets moving more independently and there are special very large economic/political issues in Japan. There's no such thing as "Asia" from a markets perspective, any more than there is a unitary place like "South America."

Without knowing the figures, my guess is that much depends on the future of film in the movie industry, and the mass market of not-even-hobby snappers, who couldn't care what sort of technology delivered their snapshots.

A lot of high-end commercial photography is still produced with large format cameras. And for the fine-art photographers who value the qualities of silver-based photography, there are Ilford, Efke/Adox and Bergger, at least to cover most of our B&W needs, .... and Kodak nervously know it.

I would just hope that there remains a competitor for Fuji, to keep their prices in line. But, even as Reala is one of my all time favourite colour neg films, without spending more than I can afford at a pro lab in Oslo, I can't get anyone to give back anything other than digital prints, which are depressingly lousy compared with the real thing. Whilst I am gearing up to do it all myself, I sometimes wonder if there's any point.

Please tell me, you folk accross the Atlantic, when you deliver C41 for processing and prints, what do you get back from your local labs?

Kevin.

I'm surprised that nobody in Oslo does a decent job with digital prints, which can so easily transcend wet darkroom prints when done properly. But that's a sign that film is doomed, as there's not a lot of reason for most people to shoot film, which then requires skilled scanning, in order to produce digital prints.

The point of doing it yourself is that if you apply yourself to the task, you can readily beat anything an alleged "pro" lab will deliver, assuming moderate prices.

Ilford has turned it's paper business over to the Chinese. Can their film business be far behind? And Fuji is in and out of the Velvia business, which means they don't see a solid market continuing too far into the future. Is there another interpretation?.

I doubt many top pros continue to use large format film for their most serious clients, when they can obtain digital backs that outperform large format for commercial purposes. Less successful professionals will continue to try to deliver film, but their clients won't want it, which will force those photogs to rely on DSLRs, which will depress their professional status. Is there another interpretation?

"Ilford has turned it's paper business over to the Chinese."

Is that true, or just a rumor? Might be time to pick a different paper -- my last box was made in the UK...

John - Ilford's B&W enlarging paper is still made in the UK.

The Swiss factory produced ink jet paper.

And, yes, there's an alternate interpretation to the Velvia saga.

Fuji discontinued Velvia 50 because one of its more environmentally-unfriendly chemical constituents could no longer be produced. An alternate was developed and the film was restored.

One final note - John. Kodak no longer produces any film at the Lucky facility in China. Their remaining coating facilities are in the USA and they have one remaining facility in the UK.

Your statements about a falling dollar and stagflation are quite correct. That is the sum of all fears for a film company because discretionaly consumables (e.g. film) gets clobbered under such conditions.

Kodak also has a plant in the UK. Dollar rates will have no effect on film sales, the remaining

film market is not price driven, it is mainly comprised of folks who like shooting film and it

remains a profitable business for Kodak, as they have pointed out. Don't panic, there will be

film vendors as long as people want to shoot film.

Hello DAVE S.

You are totally wrong saying AGFA is dead! The AGFA GEVAERT in Belgium is very active and has 15,000 employee working there, producing a lot of good B&W stuff, including films for ROLLEI/MACO.

Cheers

Film is still very profitable for Kodak due to film sales for Hollywood movie production.

This is still BIG BUSINESS....millions and millions and millions of feet of film stock for

shooting and for release prints, as well as intermediate internegative stock, soundtrack

stocks, etc. Even as more and more theatres convert to digital projection, the industry still

prefers shooting on film, even for higher-class television production. The need for film for

movie exhibition is far from over. The high cost of digital projection equipment (at

theatre resolutions) prohibits most exhibitors from changing over, and certainly in

impoverished countries, the demise of theatrical film will be decades away. The use of

film in movies dwarfs all other applications of film put together. There are only two

manufacturers of color film stocks for movies. Kodak and Fuji, and Kodak has the lions

share of this business.

Gene, movie film is very profitable for Kodak. Camera film, whilst not as profitable for Kodak

still makes them money. Ilford do not make movie film and they make money from camera

film also, as do Fuji. Film was a profitable business before mass market consumer adoption

in the 60's and 70's and it will remain a profitable business following the digital switch in the

90's and 00's.

I went on a tour of the Ilford UK factory last year. It is in a rural location in Cheshire and IIRC they have a long lease on the site after the restructuring of a couple years ago and employ over 300 staff.They coat the Ilford films,Ilford silver gelatin papers and Harman inkjet papers.The Ilford inkjet paper is made by a different indepedent company now.

The Ilford UK factory is amazingly modern wit hundreds of electronis control points,eg the main coating machine is run from a control centre full of computers by a few tech guys.They are very hot on quality control.By the accounts I have heard their financial situation looks OK for the forseeable future.

Since Kodak is a much larger company it seems not much is heard about the coating factory at Rochester which is only a small part of it.

Photo.net seems to get these posts on a daily basis. It's hard to believe that such a poorly worded one would get such attention.

AGFA went out of business two years ago. Ilford has made a great comeback, and they are not making paper in China. Someone mentioned "They see Kodak as a brand, little more.". I think this is very accurate and shows the poor business models of most US companies. They can't even make crappy digital cameras these days. The only prestige product they have left is film. US companies think in terms of 6-12 months profits. Japanese companies 5-10 years. No one steering Kodak at the moment seems to have a long range business model.

That's why I predict in 5 years the only thing you'll see carrying the Kodak label are crummy camera bags and over priced accessories at Wal Mart. Hopefully they will spin off the film business and call it something like "Eastman Emulsions". Until we get some hard info, I'll be over at APUG.org reading and discussing photography.

Hey Russ, at least we are <i>allowed</i> to respond to such posts here on Photo.net. Unlike

Apug where "moderators" decide if a topic can be discussed or not for fear it may stir up

uncomfortable truths no doubt.

John Kelly, what are you inferring by "Kodak's nervous about Efke? Wow!". You pick one product I mention, take it out of context for the purpose of ridicule? The global awareness of alternatives has affected Kodak's share of the market. Not just Fotokemika in Zagreb, but all of them combined. Fact: The availability of everything from Eastern Europe has made a difference. Take a tour at: http://www.fotoimpex.de/

Note that Kodak has dropped most of their large-format lines in B&W, whereas EFKE and Bergger have it all. Reason? Something to do with customer choice ... turnover ... weakened monopoly in those areas?

No, I don't know all the figures, but I see Kodak products constantly being moved over to the "Discontinued" list, whereas the competition in many of the same product areas seems to be stable, and available.

"Available vs Discontinued" doesn't require maths.

Russ Rosener, Agfa photo, the devision in Germany that produced our Agfa branded films APX, RSX etc did close, and caused a lot of confusion. But please take note of WolfRainer's information posted above. It is true. I have been in contact recently with tech staff re Copex at: http://www.agfa.com/en/co/index.jsp You won't easily find a list of products you recognise because they are not marketing for retail sales, but business as WolfRainer mentions.

Cheers, Kevin.