FACT OR URBAN LEGEND? #1: Wetting agents contaminate reels.

In the interest of gathering information as well as encouraging lively and <i>constructive</i> debate, I'm

launching a series of discussions about specific topics where either no consensus exists or where misinformation,

disinformation or conflicting information frequently occurs.<p>

 

This week's topic: <b>Do wetting agents like Kodak Photo Flo or equivalents from other manufacturers contaminate

reels and tanks?</b><p>

 

Specifically, over the years I've heard numerous claims that wetting agents can contaminate or leave a tenacious

residue on plastic reels. Personally, I'm skeptical of the claim. I've even begun to delete unsubstantiated

claims of this type, in the interest of avoiding confusion for those who are new to the b&w darkroom.<p>

 

But I could be wrong.<p>

 

While I welcome your opinions and anecdotal observations, I'm hoping as well to see some substantiation, some

hard evidence that has isolated the problem to wetting agents. I suspect that contaminated, stained or gummy

reels are due to other factors. But for the sake of gathering information, let's open this topic to discussion.<p>

 

And if I've chastised anyone before on the forum or deleted your claims, please rest assured that your

<i>constructively worded and relevant comments</i> are welcome on this discussion. My only request is to keep

remarks strictly relevant to this specific topic. If you have suggestions for other topics in this series,

please e-mail me off-forum by clicking on my name and following the prompts.<p>

 

Thanks. I'm hoping this will be a welcome relief to those who tolerated the recent off-topic digressions and

unpleasantness.

I use both plastic and metal reels and have used photo flo for years processing hundreds of 35 and 120 rolls. It may leave some residue on the reels I really have no way to tell. But, if that is the case it has never been an issue for me. I only use photo flo and never have used any other brand. If there is an issue with residue or melting of plastic reels etc. whose to say that it isn't a combination of any or all the various chemistry used over time and not a particular individual chemical or wetting agent that is the problem? Maybe it is a particular chemical when used in combination with a particular plastic tank/reel made of "x" composites? Or maybe it's that solvent I use to clean my tanks after so many uses! :) Never had the problem.

Lex, I have a plastic tank, which I once forgot to wash out after completing my final rinse. Final rinse was

done in DI water and Edwal's LFN wetting agent (1 drop per 16 oz H2O). I had dumped out the rinse water, but

never washed out the tank with tap water afterward. I left the tank standing upright, which allowed the residual

rinse water to puddle on the bottom of the tank. When it dried, it left behind a fairly stubborn residue that

was in the shape of the small puddle. I did thoroughly rinse my reels, caps, and other containers that day - no

residue. The residue in the bottom of the tank, has not been removed after about a year of use. I haven't done

anything like scrubbing to remove it.

 

In three years with this tank, I haven't experienced any problems with residues other than this one time. The

rinse water that day poured out of the tank clear, so I am fairly sure that it was not due to significant

quantities of dissolved anti-halation layer.

 

I do believe that the residue was due to the wetting agent. Perhaps the wetting agent does combine with some

small amount of dissolved anti-halation dye (which is not great enough on it's own to cause a residue), and this

allows the wetting agent to form a compound with the dye molecules. These are amphiphiles afterall which will

interact with both polar and non-polar species. I also believe that it is possible to avoid residue problems

with thorough washing/rinsing of equipment immediately after use.

 

Photo of residue to follow if I remember it when I get home.

Interesting observations, Dave and Evan. I've long suspected that it's a combination of ingredients that occasionally leads to the residues some folks have observed.

I develop, stop, and fix a roll or two of film in a Jobo plastic tank with plastic reels, then wash in an Aquawasher. After wash I then drop the reels in another Jobo tank filled with Kentmere wetting agent. I immediately clean my reels and the tank that contained the wetting agent when I'm done for the night. I picked this workflow long before I heard about possible issues with the wetting agent.

 

In any case, there's not much room here for residue issues so my experience has no bearing either way.

Yes, and no on the wetting agent & plastic reels.

 

For many years, I used to not worry about it, but after about 5 years (and after reading about the issue here), I noticed that some (minor) gunk had built up on the reels. Nothing that would affect loading or any other functionality of the reels, but nonethless...

 

Hence, rather than a quick rinse of the reels after finishing a roll, I now soak them in clear water for the duration of the post-development clean-up (washing the measuring cups, pouring the fixer and stop-bath back into their containers etc.), and wash them last. That seems to elimiate the issue...

I've heard of people scrubbing their reels to solve this "problem". Sometimes the right cleaning agent obviates the need for scrubbing, so can anyone suggest a solvent for the deposit? Would caustic soda (sodium hydroxide, or "lye") do it, or would an organic solvent be better? And would such cleaning damage the plastic reels (which are not all the same as each other)?

 

When I used to use Photo-Flo in my Jobo tanks, after use I soaked them in hot water with a bit of alkaline cleaner (not dishwashing detergent). The brand is "Nifti" and I don't know if it's a world wide brand or a local one here (Australia). Did this ensure that I had no problems with my reels? Don't know.

 

Time for an experiment along the lines of Evan's experience.

I don't know about reels because I'm a sheet film guy. I've been using a Jobo CPP-2 and Jobo 3010 tank for 5x4

sheets for about six years now. I bought the CPP-2 second hand. First run through when I opened the tank it was

absolutely full of suds. But I hadn't put anything through the machine that would cause suds -- just HC-110H,

indicator stop, rapid fix, and water. No wetting agent. The 3010 tank was also brand new.

 

So I wrote the previous owner who told me that he'd used the machine almost exclusively for e-6 work with roll

films. And that on occasion he ran B&W and did run photoflow pour photoflow through the lift just like all the

other chemistry. So it was either the stabilizer for the E-6 or the photoflow.

 

What was contaminated was a few inches of plastic channel in the Jobo lift.

 

I called Kodak and they said it happens all the time and doesn't cause any problems with any of the normal

chemistry. They said not to worry about it and that eventually it would go away.

 

I tried scrubbing it out which is impossible. I spent hours with a brush designed for a french horn which was the

only thing I could find that was small enough and flexible enough. Couldn't even dent this stuff.

 

In the end, Kodak was right. It took years and many hundreds of sheets of film but the foaming action has slowly

gone down until it's hard to notice anymore.

 

But yeah. It does stick to plastics fairly well. And it's darn near impossible to get off once it's on there.

I have used Kodak's Photo Flo for years, (wouldn't process film without it, - really eliminates spotting and other problems) using plastic 120 and 35mm reels, and never encountered contamination or residue issues.....thanks

I've got several Jobo 1501 reels, the oldest of which have developed a sticky feel and slight discoloration after about five years of use. I also have a Durst reel which I have been using for 15 years. The Durst reel is a hard, clear plastic, (maybe polycarbonate) compared to the soft white plastic of the Jobos, and it has no trace of stickiness. This could mean either that the stickiness is related to the plastic, or that it's just a lot easier to clean it off of the hard plastic. Perhaps there is someone who has the older clear hard plastic Jobo reels for the 2500 tanks that might be able to chime in whether they have developed stickiness? I just got some used, and they seem clean, but I have no way to know whether the previous owner was subjecting them to Photo-Flo or not.

P.S. - BTW, it is VERY IMPORTANT that AFTER you are done is to thoroughly wash your reels under warm (not hot) water......

I have been developing film for well over 30 years and have used both plastic and metal -- indeed, two of the reels I have were purchased in the early 1980's are still used regularly. For the vast majority of the time, I have used Photo-Flo to wet the films prior to drying. I have never encountered such a problem -- but with some caveats. First, it does happen, but it never happened to me. It could be because after each use, I wash all gear with hot water and regular dish detergent. Further, as I am very "old school," I have also used Photo-Flo as an ingredient when I make my own window washing spray (a lot cheaper and just as effective, if not more so, than commercial products). My windows and mirors remain very clean and show no build up of any sort of residue.

 

But there is another caveat that may be a factor. I live in New York City and the water supply is one of the cleanest, purest and tastiest around. It is also not very hard so I tend to use a bit less Photo-Flo than what is recommended. Even then, I have never experienced the slightest drying spots (when using NYC water). On the other hand, when I had the atelier in Jersey City, right across the river from my home, I found the water desperately needed filtering. Once filtered, I never experienced any problem whatsoever. Before filtering, I would get some sort of gunk (this is the caveat) IF and ONLY IF the Photo-Flo solution was left for more than a couple of weeks, but, again, this was only when I did not filter that water and if it was left for some weeks. For me to leave the wetting agent for such a long time was exceedingly rare.

 

Also, being "Old School," I learned early on to always inspect the solutions before use. So, all solutions are visually inspected (by definition, a solution is clear, a mixture need not necessarily be clear). I use glass flasks, so it is very easy. After a visual inspection, I would then test the pH of the developer and the fixer using pH strips just to make sure one was alkaline and the other was acid (unless I was using an alkaline fix). It was not as important to make sure that pH was exact, but rather that the solution was acid or alkaline.

 

When I would visit other darkrooms to cure a problem, I would know very easily if the person was careful and attentive. I would just have to take a look at their reels. If they were plastic and they were discolored, I would know the person was not doing their post-processing due diligence. I would ask them to show me their procedure, from loading to drying, that is, to go through the process as if I were not there. More times than not, they did not wash the gear properly after use. It was then real easy to find and cure whatever issue they were having. Rinsing is not enough. Washing is better.

 

Basically, it was being careful that prevented a lot of problems. But, yes, a gunk can form under the proper conditions but those conditions are very easy to avoid. I hope this helps.

I mostly use SS reels and tanks. Yankee made a set where the tank was plastic but the reel SS. I have two of these in 1 roll 35mm size and one in 120 size. I find they leak less than SS tanks but still allow me to use SS reels which I prefer. My plastic tanks and reels are mostly Paterson products. I have found that plastic reels are more difficult to rinse properly. A soft brush isn't a bad idea for cleaning them. Even with the cleaning issue there are probably more problems loading film into plastic reels because the cornners are not rounded off than for any other reason. I found loading the old Ilford 220 films into a Peterson reel nearly impossible. The film base was too thin and I didn't round off the corners. As long as I used hot water and rinsed the Photo Flo off right away I didn't have a problem. I would avoid using an abrasive cleaner like Bon Ami on plastic reels. Once the surface is roughed up the film will not glide in they way it should.

Some years ago I bought used sheetfilm hangers. The film done in these had a gradual, very pictorial softness at the edges. I discovered that it was the result of photoflo deposits left on the hangers. Since then I have removed film from the hanger or reel before using a wetting agent. I hold the roll film by both ends and run it through a beaker of photoflo without the reel.

Kodak's Photo Flo's formula was changed awhile back; this adds to "do you believe"/legends

I used Kodak Photo Flo for thirty years, and washed my reels in a simple solution of dish soap with complete rinsing.

Never had any problems with residue on reels or negatives.

Lex,

 

I am skeptical too. I am using JOBO plastic reels and until a few month ago I used photo flo. There are always black stains

building up over time. I stopped using photo flo because I did not needed since I use distilled water only. But the dark

stains are still coming back. I use Ilford chemicals (DD-X/Rapid Fix). At least I did find a solution to get easily rid of the

stains. I just put the reels in hot water with 'Jobo Processor Clean II' over night and they are clean as a whistle.

 

Rudy

I definitely had a problem with Photo-Flo residue left on my plastic reels before I learnt to rinse them very

carefully after each use. Once you let the residue dry onto the plastic reels it's almost impossible to get it

off. I used Kodak Photo-Flo and Paterson type plastic reels, with the small tabs at the film's entry point. And

the amt of Photo-Flo I used was very small, just a tiny drop per 2-reel tank.

 

In places with very high humidity ( I used to live in Singapore, RH 90% most days), the residue will be sticky

and will cause your film to catch and wrinkle in the reel as they are being loaded. Extremely frustrating.

I find that if the film is removed from the reel (separate the reel into halves - if possible) and dropped into a container of distilled water and a few drops of wetting agent, the reels and tanks are not exposed to possible contamination. Swirling the film in the container of water and wetting agent periodically during about a two minute period is desirable to thoroughly coat the film. The film is then hung to dry. The container must be rinsed immediately for the next usage. A container such as/similar to those used as ice buckets in motels works beautifully.

I've used photo flo for 4 years and i never say any residue on the tanks, but then again, i rinse the tanks after i pull the film out.

Over 25 years of using Paterson plastic reels and tanks I have never had any problem with accumulations of residue on the reels. I am still using the same reels that I bought back then.That said, I am meticulous about rinsing the reels immediately after use, though I never scrub them. I am also particular about the wetting agents I use, preferring either Paterson wetting agent or Tetenal Mirasol, both used at the lowest concentration that fully disperses the water.

I have a bunch of Paterson reels, most of which I got from a famous auction site over time so I have no idea

about their history, and I use the Ilfotol wetting agent. (Hey, it's what the local guy carriers - not Photo-flo,

and I'm doing all I can afford to support the local guy's store.) Regardless, I never have any trouble with the

wetting agent building up, but I do rinse the equipment reasonably well after a run and put it up to dry. I'm not

on the verge of need medicine for obsessive compulsive behavior about the rising, just about the same as I do

when hand washing the dinner dishes.

 

I suspect that you're local water composition may have something to do with whether it all rinses out or not. So

far as I know the "surfactant" in the wetting agents is just a variation of plain old soap. If there's enough

"stuff" in your local water to bind up the alkaline in the soap chains then it will probably wash off pretty

clean. If not, like if you use distilled water exclusively perhaps, the wetting agent residue may adhere to the

plastic reel better than the water stream to wash away. This is just a theory I made up in the last 10 seconds,

BTW. And since I'm giving it away for free, it may only be worth what you're paying for it, nothing. Any laundry

or dish washing liquid industrial chemists reading who can clue me in?

 

MB

http://www.tedpella.com/msds_html/26950msds.htm

 

Msds indicates solubility of photo-flo 200 in water is complete,hazardous polymerization will not occur,no data on hazardous decomposition products. I am afraid ,regarding the question of this thread, the msds does not give much clue.

Maybe it's because I used to smoke a pipe which wasn't any good until it had built up a cake. It might also be because I have not used a wetting agent in at least 20 years. I have never had a problem and if I did I'm not sure I would know it, as long as it is not on my developed and dried film. Come to think of it, it couldn't very well be on my film. I always wipe the excess water off with a soft cloth. If it's good enough for a baby's bottom, it's good enough for my film.

 

Anything that will not get on my film, whether it comes off my reels or not, is welcome to stay there. If neither developer nor cleaning stuff will remove it, what choice do I have?

 

I hope a reminder of a funny story will not be inappropriate. Remember the emperor's mice? He got cats to get rid of the mice. When they got to be pests, he got dogs. Then he got tigers to get rid of the dogs. He had to get tigers to get rid of the dogs, and elephants to get rid of the tigers. You know what elephants fear? Mice, of course. Did anyone try using the wetting agent to remove the wetting agent? Just a thought.

I thought I got rid of that double dose of tigers!