FACT OR URBAN LEGEND? #1: Wetting agents contaminate reels.

[profhlynnjones]

Hi Lex,

 

Yes and no. Photo Flo, etc., is a detergent with a relatively high pH, and if the reels and tanks aren't usually rinsed off, it is possible with a small tank to get a bit of streaking. However, if the reels and tanks are "usually" rinsed off, especially with warm or hot water this never happens. I have seen it a few times when diagnosing processing problems and it usually is withone 36 exposure reel of film in a long used reel and tank.

 

There is a potentially worse problem, especially with SS reels and tanks. Over time, the hardware will "plate on" and you won't notice it because everything has the dull metallic look. I have always put my reels and tanks into a solution of 10% sodium bisulfite when they no longer look shiny. Boy, do you ever see the roiling, and boiling, and bubbling with foam and greenish color rolling up. DO NOT INHALE SOD BI SULFITE, IT IS A TREMENDOUS IRRITANT AND CAN CAUSE IRRITATIVE PNEUMONIA IT IS AN ACID SALT ! After this treatment, rinse with warm water and you won't believe the difference.

 

I used to be GM of a professional motion picture lab and we acid cleaned our tanks, after which we soaked them in dilute original solutions, re rinsed them and then re-filled them.

 

Lynn

[david_carlisle1]

I was unaware of the gradual increase in difficulty in loading my patterson plastic reel, blaming my technique. It was only when I bought a yellowed old second hand reel, and noticed that it loaded so much easier, that I started to think about photo-flo residue. I do remember having in the past being unable to find my eye-dropper and pouring about 5 mls of photoflo in. No wonder it gunked up! My camera tech friend suggests cleaning the reel with vinegar. Yes I do believe reels can get sticky from photoflo residue.

[dweezil]

The only thing I put in the wetting agent is the reels.

 

After developing, stop, fix and wash, what I do is I put the reel with the film in a beaker with clean water and

wetting agent, that way my tank stays clean.

 

Further more Every 5 or 6 months I hijack the home dish washer and put all stuff in there to give it a good

washing. After that I rinse everything with clear water and dry it of with a lint free clean kitchen towel.

 

No problems so far.

 

As for the fact vs legend : Since photoflo is the last product in the sequence I think it is possible that there

is a residue build up because one tends to forget the rinsing and just dries of the reels and container.

[dbltap4]

A long time ago, I had heard from a pro photographer that photo flo would have a detrimental effect on Diafine, if the wetting agent was not thoroughly removed. Other than that, I have noticed a slight buid-up of scum over a long period of time. Can't say for sure that it is the wetting agent though.

Jim

[lex_jenkins]

I've used both Diafine and wetting agents (Photo Flo and others) for years. Not in the same step, of course. Never had any problems. But because I use the Ilford in-tank washing method, and include a drop of wetting agent in the final wash, I always rinse the reels and tanks in plain warm water after every session. No indications of residue buildup on my plastic or stainless systems.

 

If anything the tiny bit of wetting agent probably helps clean any residual developer, stop bath or fixer from the reels and tanks. Pretty much the same as using a mild soap or detergent.

 

I have plastic reels from at least three manufacturers: Jobo, a set that came with a Spanish made system (can't recall the name at the moment), and a set with no obvious markings. All three are of slightly different designs and appear to be made of slightly different types of plastics. The Jobos seem a bit more flexible and resilient. The Spanish made reels feel slightly more brittle. The unknown set feel soft, springy and have become discolored with age like many plastics will do, especially when in contact with chemicals.

 

I suspect that unpredictable aging and deterioration of some types of plastics is a factor. There are too many variables to pinpoint any single cause, since we use different chemicals, have different types of water, and various other potential contaminants in the home. For example, I've seen a bizarre incident in which the plastic housing of a neighbor's television set literally crumbled in my hands as I was disposing of it for her. She's a heavy smoker and the smoke residue had gummed up the electrical and electronic components inside the set. The wall behind the set was covered in a sticky residue. Apparently the TV set had begun behaving like a crude ionizing device and the ozone had destroyed the plastic! I recall seeing similar deterioration of plastics near the ionizing air cleaners my grandparents once used throughout their home.

[paul_poropat]

I have been using the same Patterson System 4 tank and adjustable reels for over 30 years. As part of regular lab routine, after processing, I wash with clean water, cap the tank with reels inside and shake like hell for a minute, dump, rinse, dump dry. No residue.

[john fleshin]

40 years of developing with mostly nylon and plastic tanks, from the old Paterson Major tanks to the latest ones,

some silver deposits on the reels, and with wetting agents, began using them when I got drying spots on my first

35mm films, the city adds CaCO3 to protect pipes, distilled water rinses negate much need for wetting agents, but

less is more in any event.

 

Finally, have heard for processors and tanks, that some of the toilet cleaners work rather well in removing

accumulated stains.

 

As to the high ph of photoflo, while it may be above neutral, I doubt it is "high" as it would have some warning labels,

and might eat the skin off your fingers, but perhaps my idea of high is drain cleaners, etc.though I have yet to titrate

it. ;-) I have been led to believe the active ingredient is ethylene gylcol, so do not drink it which is a double alcohol

and as I recall two carbons with some double bonds as well, etc, I think it would cause kidney damage.

 

It will make the water run off faster, and anti freeze is slipery, but it seems to wash away when it leaks from the car.

If you are concerned, use distilled water as a final rinse.

 

Regards,

[backswamp]

I certainly wouldn't guess that it has ethylene glycol in it, but I'm neither a chemist not clairvoyant, so it's

hard for me to tell. But the description of "anionic surfactant" leads me to believe it's nothing more than some

sort of mild soap. Soap is nothing more than a long chain fat and an alkaline binder, which would give the

slightly high pH. Try mixing lard and box lye sometimes; makes a pretty good, if kind of harsh, soap.

 

As for the soap theory, witness that Jet-Dry works pretty well, too. And that's nothing more than very dilute

soap and bit of perfume and dye to make it attractive to the consumer. On whole I've found that a 1 liter bottle

of Ilfotol is cheaper than the equivalent 30 or so consumer targeted bottles of Jet-Dry, and there's no worry

about the perfume or dye like I always have with Jet-Dry.

 

Of course, I could be wrong. It might very well be ethylene glycol based. Anybody want to spend the time running

an analysis?

 

MB

[john fleshin]

Michael, I am pretty sure I have seen it on the label at one time or another, and yes, all soaps are made from fats

and lye, and the bitter taste of soap from my generation's moms tells me it was still basic, but again, not what I

would call a strong base. I think in any case it is obviously mostly water.

;-) It may contain a small amount of each, but I do not think of soaps as easily clean draining without a further

rinse.

 

"Box Lye" we may be closer in age, my grandmother made soap from cheese and lye once, and it was pretty wicked

looking stuff, I did not use it in the darkroom. ;-)

 

I liked the European bottles, they were dropper bottles.

 

If I find some ph paper I will give it a dip sooner or later.

 

I do not see much downside to using distilled water as a final rinse.

 

Strong base in a chemistry lab might be carry a different meaning from strong base in a darkroom lab.

 

I once added a bit of NaOH to Neutol in the tray, and it vastly increased the activity, to the point of developing some

areas of the print that were very lightly exposed, and creating sand like grain. It did not take much, and I caution

anyone experimenting to be very careful with NaOH crystals, not allowing it to touch any skin at all. It was an

interesting effect.

 

I tend to think of things that remove a few layers of skin as being strong.

 

The Post Office does not like the larger bottles of some of the Agfa concentrates, but I have spilled almost every

type of developer on my hands at one time or another, and just rinsed them off.

 

Lye, draino, caustic soda, NaOH, are all pretty serious stuff we sometimes have handled less carefully than we

should have. They are basically the same and will take skin off and do serious damage in concentration.

 

Regards, John

[lex_jenkins]

Let's stay focused on the original topic of this thread. I'm hoping it will be useful as reference for future questions about wetting agents and residue. If the thread drifts I'll begin editing comments to keep it on track.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Since there are some many types of plastics;and they age with time its good that many folks mentioned the brand names of the plastic reels they use.<BR><BR>With ozone exposure many plastics degrade; one can get micro cracking. Cracks are caused by the strain in the plastics when exposed to ozone. The cracks grow with time.<BR><BR> Thus two of the same type plastic reels might have one in Los Angeles with a high ozone level; and another in PoDunk with a low ozone level. The LA reel might tend to be harder to load just due to degradation to due micro cracks too; with nothing to do with Photoflo.

[bruce_erickson1]

I am a beginner and I have been using Photo-Flo with stainless steel reels. I have not noticed any problem with build up but I have only developed 10 rolls, 35mm, so far. I wash the reels in plain hot tap water. I would like to eliminate the Photo-Flo step altogether because often the Photo-Flo itself forms bubbles that cling to the film no matter how careful I am in pouring it into the tank. Because I dry my film in a warm air film dryer (Senrac Roll Film Dryer: takes about 3 to 5 min), I don't think I should have any trouble with bubbles. I am going to do my next roll w/o the Photo-Flo. (I would also like to eliminate the stop-bath step too but that would be for another discussion.)

[john fleshin]

Ethylene Glycol is on the label of my photoflo purchased in Europe, and many of my early Patterson reels seem to

be nylon, and the more recent ones a more normal plastic as I have broken some, and the early nylon reels seem

more durable, I do not know how either react with any chemistry, but there are a number of cleaners for what

remains on them.

 

I have never seen any data that shows a reaction with the residue of washing agents and future processing. I have

seen what appears to be silver deposits, but obviously not from washing agents.

 

If Ozone is a factor, then keep the reels away from motors, hot tubs, and copy machines.

 

Regards, John

[john fleshin]

Let me know when it is time to vote, I vote Urban Legend, but if someone wants to perhaps soak their reels in a

number of wetting agents, perhaps undiluted, I would look further at the data.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Bruce; whether one has to use a wetting agent like photoflo; or the amount of laundry detergent one requires depends on the hardness on ones water supply. In Southern Indiana or Southern California I have had hard water; I use distilled water and photoflo to avoid streaks. In the Deep South at the summer home the water is super soft; photoflo is helpfull but not so much as the other places. The first bottle of photoflo I bought was about 65 cents; but a cocacola cost 5 cents then. If one gets spots on negatives by avoiding a wetting agent; it might be false economy since they are often ruined forever. As a *cost* Photoflo for me is probably between shoelaces and lenscaps; probably closer to shoelaces. Experimentt with a dont care roll before dropping a wetting agent.

[john fleshin]

Kelly, municipal water supply often add minerals to protect pipes. If you just let the water boil dry in the kitchen you might get an idea of how hard the water is. I think across the country you are going to get a pretty broad range of minerals before the Photo Flo. When I use distilled water as a rinse, it does not not seem to drain or dry as fast as using a wetting agent.

 

Probably the water supply people could tell exactly what is in municipal drinking water as they are required to test it.

 

Well water (most of the liquid fresh water in the world is ground water) can have a number of chemicals.

 

Still have that first bottle? It does last, shoelaces wear out. The original question is not so simple.

 

Regards, John

[backswamp]

Distilled water cannot drain as well as water with an added wetting agent because the wetting agent's *JOB* is to knock the water's surface tension down so the water can't bead. Distilled water, by obvious inference, must have about the same surface tension as water.

 

Of course, if the distilled water is truly pure, and there's nothing else left in the tank and no impurities at all, the pure water will simply evaporate without leaving a trace (or a spot as it happens). I'm sure some people's set up is good enough that this is true, i.e. distilled water dries completely spot free for them.

 

My own experience, however, especially with some of the cheaper film out there, is that distilled water dries with a few spots occasionally. This may be because there's some gunk migrating out of the emulsion on the foreign made film (I found this to be a problem with Fomapan) that shrinks in the water droplet as it dries and then deposits in the end on the surface. Or it might just be because I'm too lackadaisical in my washing. But with the wetting agent in distilled water the water droplets cannot form, so the waters sheets off better in my experience.

 

Now, does this have any effect on how the residue builds up on reels? Beats me. My personal experience is that I do not have the problem with gunk on the reels. Ergo, the wetting agent solves one of my problems without creating another one for me, so I use it faithfully. But clearly there's enough people out there who *DO* have the problem with gunk on the reels that it must be real. I can't imagine people from all over the world hallucinate the same problem. I *CAN* imagine people from all over the world who do have the gunk problem also have similar water properties.

 

MB

[john fleshin]

Micheal, sounds perfectly reasonable, plus I have the dropper bottle of Photo Flo and am conservative in its

application.

 

Long ago, for some reason, I did not get spots on MF film and did on the base of 35mm, so began with photo flo.

 

I also use a Cepap machine, and found the water in Puerto Vallarta did not leave any deposit, and at home tap water

leaves a deposit of CaCO3, which easly disolves in dilute acid, and I know the city really does not want low pH water

disolving metal pipes.

 

I have seen some various silver deposits, but I have never first hand confirmed any sort of "gunk" on reels of any

kinds, including when I was running up to 30 rolls a week at the university darkroom.

 

I have seen these discussions from time to time, and can only surmise the causes, but it seems a bit of good house

cleaning takes care of it.

 

If I am lucky enough to keep my reels long enough for some atmospheric chemical weathering to occur, I would

simply chalk them up to a useful long life, which I hope everyone in this thread can aspire to personally in a

porportional manner. I think I get my money's worth out of them. ;-)

 

BTW, I used to sell Foma, they had a long standing problem with their MF films, hope they fixed it.

 

If a serious problem occurs, and a solution is not obvious, then by all means, post a sample to the quality control

people with the film company, they have always given me a well thought out answer.

 

 

Regards, John

[stephen_delear]

I remember when I was back in highschool. Our Journalism teacher had been teaching for many years. She never bought plastic reels for the department (even though a dropped metal reel is a contact error waiting to happen). Her reason, plastic reels were prone to contamination in a high throughput (10-20 rolls/day) environment where the most cleaning the equipment was likely to get was a quick water wash. At college most shooters coming from a highschool journalism background had heard that plastic reels were given to contamination.

 

Plastic reels becoming contamination is a well known "fact". Part of this probably is that with time the reels become discolored from developer (much like old [plastic measuring cups will become discolored). That being said I'll stick to metal where I don't have such worries.

[pnance]

I can't find or remember where I read it, but recall that it was stated that Photo-Flo is made with Triton X-100, a surfactant (octylphenol ethoxylate). Often used in cleaning products.

[lex_jenkins]

<i>Michael Batchelor wrote: "I can't imagine people from all over the world hallucinate the same problem."</i><p>

 

That would explain Bigfoot, chupacabras and "gray" aliens. Alas, repetition isn't always an indicator of credibility.<p>

 

<i>Stephen Delear wrote: "At college most shooters coming from a highschool journalism background had <b>heard</b> that plastic reels were given to contamination."</i><p>

 

and...<p>

 

<i>"Plastic reels becoming contamination is a well known 'fact'."</i><p>

 

Since you put the word "fact" in quotes, I'm not sure whether this was intended as irony or simple emphasis. But it does appear to be another example of iteration being substituted for information.

[john fleshin]

Plastic trays become discolored, as do the plastic parts of commercial processors. A friend owns a good processor

and they break down the unit and clean the rollers every day, they will still show some discoloration, but appearance

does not seem to affect results. Some processors swap out the rollers on a regular basis with new rollers arriving

with the chemistry. More to prevent scratches I believe.

 

I doubt if you could see silver contamination on metal reels, but if everything is loaded and working properly, I could

estimate less physical contact with the film, but most of the mess ups in processing from students seem to involve

SS reels, and with MF I feel you will see more of the dark marks from excess cupping or creasing of the film as it is

handled more during loading, which might out weigh any potential contamination from stains.

 

If you are processing that much film, you surely can afford to buy neplacement reels, and as mentioned, students

drop metal reels and they never get aligned again. Any silver solvent or, as I recall there are published formulae for

tray cleaners, and either should spruce up the reels, but it very well may be unnecessary.

 

If I am changing to E6 from B&W, I might use new reels and tanks and keep them for one process or the other.

 

Does any major film or chemistry producer have any published data on contamination of plastic/ nylon / stainless

reels specifically?

 

J

[mark_l3]

if not ansewered already, a bleach/water solution will remove all residue

[wclark5179]

I've got a plastic Ansco tank that I got around 1960 and it still works fine even tho I've used Photo Flo for years, can't

remember when I started.

 

Maybe I need to go to a Photo Flow class, I will stand up and admit, "I use photo Flow." Cheers. Then I can take the

appropriate steps to get off of using it! Just kidding. I still will use it!

 

Nice idea to have these topic Lex and you do a great job as moderator. Thanks!

[john fleshin]

Mark, have mentioned toilet cleaners that have been recommended with a brush for RA4 processors, and bleach will

actually disolve the emulsion from film, giving you a clear base, which is how we used to recycle X Rays to use the

base for other things. If you have a spoiled roll of film and a film strip projector, the kids can have some fun with

some markers and the cleared film.

 

William, remember those steps-- ;-)

 

I think I had the same tank, you could load the plastic reels from the inside and outside, and generally you punctured

your thumb in the process-- may have been the FR tanks.

 

I think I bought the 16 oz. size, and it has moved with me several times.

 

John