A Guide for the Abstracted

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by michaellinder, Aug 2, 2019.

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  1. "You're conflating facts with truth. A camera can record facts, but it's up to the photograph(er) to convey truth and irrespective of something being factual or not" Phil.

    But, Phil; just love the word but. Isn't there always a but. The reality is Phil, a camera records a little instant in time; the only truth is the photographers truth. And as you know, that truth is just their personal interpretation of their perceived truth. And of course this is very much based on the culture upbringing and their personal view on the world.

    " some pictures will appear as being more truthful than others. Why is that?" Phil.

    I think "appear" is the operative word.

    Don't get your vid. Hey, call me thick.

    Cold factual truth is the bedrock to walk on. Otherwise, we will believe in fairy tales, and the fairy tale will be the bedrock of our truths. You only have to look at the multitude of cults to understand that simple thought.
     
  2. Facts are dead. Truth is alive.
     
  3. "Indeed. And some cultures and some personal views are more truthful than others" Phil.

    Now who decides that. Lets have a think.

    Those who think their values are the superior values. Obviously,, they have a personal communication with that bloke upstairs. Stop, lets think, or perhaps, somebody told them so. A Guru bloke..

    "Facts are dead. Truth is alive" samstevens.

    Yes, facts are totally irrelevant. Its all about the fairy tale..
     
  4. Maybe.

    But, then you have to answer the question, what is the cause of that chaos and destruction.

    Certainly a lot of chaos and destruction in Europe if we take a little step back in time. A lot more than in any other continent at any time.

    Your drifting into politics, Phil. Boring.
     
  5. Not what I said. What’s dead is not irrelevant. My parents are dead and still relevant. So's Peter Fonda. Facts are dead because they are what they are and they're static. Nevertheless, they are, of course, relevant. Truth, especially artistic truth, is alive and often much more relevant and moving.
     
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  6. " Facts are dead because they are what they are and they're static. Nevertheless, they are, of course, relevant. Truth, especially artistic truth, is alive and often much more relevant and moving" samstevens

    The dead are far from static. They have passed on their culture, believes, which are part of you today-as you will pass them on to your offspring. Today.

    Let us look a JFK an icon of humanity-humanity cried when he was assassinated .. Now some believe he was Captain America in a state of perfection. The reality was he was a weak and sickly child, who had a serious disease, and during his life, he was what we would call today a drug addict. Add venereal disease.

    The facts of truth have lifted him far beyond any fairy-tale of Captain America. A man who overcome all, to become the President of the United States of America, and considered one of the greatest of all time.

    Truths based of facts not fairy tales..
     
  7. " The collapse of morals and common values I'd say, or, what you'd call "fairytales." England is the first to go down the drain for this very reason. No sense of pride and culture anymore" Phil.

    I presume you are talking in the context of the Second World War from your previous posts..

    Great Britain stood alone along with her Commonwealth against the Nazi regime. America, had absolutely no interest in joining another European war. Indeed Roosevelt was elected on that pledge. The Nazi war regime, by passed the French Maginot line, by going through neutral Belgium. Europe was conquered.

    Winston Churchill became Prime Minister and War Leader. The Tory cabinet was against his promotion, but the Socialist opposition, supported him, and the rest is History.

    Nazi Germany wanted England to be part of their master race, and Hitler sent his deputy to negotiate . Saxons and Angles, part of the Germanic tribes. Indeed, Germans often refer to the English as Angles.

    " The collapse of morals and common value" Phil.

    Really.

    Learn the facts not the fiction of fairy tales. The facts is where the truth lies. Art or otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  8. Facts are notes on the page. Truth is hearing the music.
     
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  9. As said the soviet poet dissident Alexander Galich, I believe, about nazi and communist regimes " the any movement to right starts from the left leg"
    Cheers.
     
  10. "Facts are notes on the page. Truth is hearing the music." samstevens.

    It is interesting how people like to ignore facts and create their own fiction. Their truths based on fiction , and fairy tales. Much like a cult thinking.

    A composer conceives and writes music by a musical notation system much like writing. This gives them a anchor for their imaginative, and enables others to appreciate that music, and allows them to emulate it through the passage of time. Of course the original conception of that music is based on the creativity and imagination. That creativity comes from previous generations influences,the times they live in, and their own personal struggles and take on the world at that time. It is nice to think that they were blessed with falling star dust, or, inspiration from the divine. The reality is if they born alone on a Island they would not be a Mozart or Shakespeare.

    Some folk are gifted to perceive the world, and the reality of it more than others. However, their imagination, creativity is very much based on the structure of facts of those who walked before them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  11. Phil, I've never seen anything that can fly with just one wing.

    I would not argue with your Ivory Tower thought.
     
  12. Margret Thatcher,a icon of the far right ,summed up the reality of the world in a conversation with Bob Geldof.

    Bob asked why she was charging VAT, on private donations to his Ethiopian charity when 100 of thousands were dying of malnutrition due to a climatic change. The answer given- "it is a commercial world, Bob"

    Nationalism/Commercialism a husband and wife team. Hey, Britain has only just paid off that last payment of 45 million due on the lease loan for the 2nd world war. from the USA. The last payment for the 1st world lease loan was paid off about 7 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  13. It certainly is. The fiction you created, for example, is that seeing notes on a page as facts compared to the truth of music is somehow ignoring the notes or facts. Having been a musician, believe me, I’ve never ignored the notes on the page and am not in the habit of ignoring facts. You’re absolutely right about music often being built on culture and history and, had you been reading me with an open mind to what I’m actually saying, you’d know nothing I said disagrees with that. I am DIFFERENTIATING between fact and Truth. I am not saying facts don’t matter. Metaphors can be eminently visual and photographs can be eminently metaphorical.
     
  14. How does this relate to abstract art and photography? In part, at least, what this IS (the fact of what it was the camera was pointed at to create the abstract) does not answer what the visual, emotional, and aesthetic Truth of the photo may be, especially because the facts, in an abstract, are often unrecognizable or remain unknown.
     
  15. And, of course, on a variety of levels, this is not just the case for abstract photos and art but for all photos and art, which can be looked at more or less abstractly, even when they seem most literal. Photos and art can be looked at both literally and abstractly or metaphorically. As a matter of ... fact ... anything can be looked at more and less literally and abstractly and anything can be experienced that way. Truth and facts are certainly related in a variety of ways, but Truth is never limited to or by facts. It's much greater than that.
     
  16. An interesting fact is that German loans were finished in the 50's a large potion of those loans were forgotten Old Blighty just kept on paying, no marshal plan for us.
    We just had to pay the costs of re-buildings our bombed cities ourselves and pay back our loans for standing against a evil regime.

    Did someone say " No sense of pride and culture "
     
  17. "Thatcher was anti-collectivist and for individual liberty. Not sure how that makes her an icon of the far-right unless you think that the idea of personal freedom is a 'far-right' one, which is ludicrous. Phil.

    Individual liberty for who? the well heeled? The reality was she was hard right, representing a hard right party. She was eventually removed by her party for those views and the poll tax. A tax on anyone alive regardless of their circumstances. Pay, or prison off you go.

    Would have cured the homeless folk problem....off to prison you go.
     
  18. " but Truth is never limited to or by facts. It's much greater than that" Samstevens.

    Truth is always limited by the lack of facts. Without strong elements of facts we are listening to lies or fairy tales as I'm fond of saying. Even a fairy tale needs a base of factual information which reveals truths.

    Lets look...

    Nat Tate. An abstract artist who was much acclaimed by the art critic Gore Vidal and many others. A sad story od a artist who died for his passion of art.

    David Bowie stated in his biography, God has chosen you Nat Tate as a artist. But, when Nat was confronted with true artistic genius of Pablo Picasso and George Braque he finds the knowledge of his own single inadequacy too much to bear. A few days later, in a fit of despair, he jumps off Statten Island ferry as it crosses the Hudson River and drowns.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  19. "LOL. Anyone who doesn't bow down to the faux morality rhetoric of the modern left" Phil.

    That is the problem with facts people just don't want to hear them. They are far happier to believe in the fairy tales of fiction that has been spoon fed to them from a early age.

    Facts are scary when there is a nice fairy tale to believe in.
     
  20. Now, there’s a fact. You do like to say it. And each time you do, it’s less adorable and gets you just a little further from the truth.

    I will now take a cue from Rothko ... Bye bye.
     
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