A Guide for the Abstracted

[Allen Herbert]

Margret Thatcher,a icon of the far right ,summed up the reality of the world in a conversation with Bob Geldof.

 

Bob asked why she was charging VAT, on private donations to his Ethiopian charity when 100 of thousands were dying of malnutrition due to a climatic change. The answer given- "it is a commercial world, Bob"

 

Nationalism/Commercialism a husband and wife team. Hey, Britain has only just paid off that last payment of 45 million due on the lease loan for the 2nd world war. from the USA. The last payment for the 1st world lease loan was paid off about 7 years ago.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[samstevens]

It is interesting how people like to ignore facts and create their own fiction.

It certainly is. The fiction you created, for example, is that seeing notes on a page as facts compared to the truth of music is somehow ignoring the notes or facts. Having been a musician, believe me, I’ve never ignored the notes on the page and am not in the habit of ignoring facts. You’re absolutely right about music often being built on culture and history and, had you been reading me with an open mind to what I’m actually saying, you’d know nothing I said disagrees with that. I am DIFFERENTIATING between fact and Truth. I am not saying facts don’t matter. Metaphors can be eminently visual and photographs can be eminently metaphorical.

[samstevens]

How does this relate to abstract art and photography? In part, at least, what this IS (the fact of what it was the camera was pointed at to create the abstract) does not answer what the visual, emotional, and aesthetic Truth of the photo may be, especially because the facts, in an abstract, are often unrecognizable or remain unknown.

[samstevens]

And, of course, on a variety of levels, this is not just the case for abstract photos and art but for all photos and art, which can be looked at more or less abstractly, even when they seem most literal. Photos and art can be looked at both literally and abstractly or metaphorically. As a matter of ... fact ... anything can be looked at more and less literally and abstractly and anything can be experienced that way. Truth and facts are certainly related in a variety of ways, but Truth is never limited to or by facts. It's much greater than that.

[Allen Herbert]

An interesting fact is that German loans were finished in the 50's a large potion of those loans were forgotten Old Blighty just kept on paying, no marshal plan for us.

We just had to pay the costs of re-buildings our bombed cities ourselves and pay back our loans for standing against a evil regime.

 

Did someone say " No sense of pride and culture "

[Allen Herbert]

"Thatcher was anti-collectivist and for individual liberty. Not sure how that makes her an icon of the far-right unless you think that the idea of personal freedom is a 'far-right' one, which is ludicrous. Phil.

 

Individual liberty for who? the well heeled? The reality was she was hard right, representing a hard right party. She was eventually removed by her party for those views and the poll tax. A tax on anyone alive regardless of their circumstances. Pay, or prison off you go.

 

Would have cured the homeless folk problem....off to prison you go.

[Allen Herbert]

" but Truth is never limited to or by facts. It's much greater than that" Samstevens.

 

Truth is always limited by the lack of facts. Without strong elements of facts we are listening to lies or fairy tales as I'm fond of saying. Even a fairy tale needs a base of factual information which reveals truths.

 

Lets look...

 

Nat Tate. An abstract artist who was much acclaimed by the art critic Gore Vidal and many others. A sad story od a artist who died for his passion of art.

 

David Bowie stated in his biography, God has chosen you Nat Tate as a artist. But, when Nat was confronted with true artistic genius of Pablo Picasso and George Braque he finds the knowledge of his own single inadequacy too much to bear. A few days later, in a fit of despair, he jumps off Statten Island ferry as it crosses the Hudson River and drowns.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

"LOL. Anyone who doesn't bow down to the faux morality rhetoric of the modern left" Phil.

 

That is the problem with facts people just don't want to hear them. They are far happier to believe in the fairy tales of fiction that has been spoon fed to them from a early age.

 

Facts are scary when there is a nice fairy tale to believe in.

[samstevens]

fairy tales as I'm fond of saying.

Now, there’s a fact. You do like to say it. And each time you do, it’s less adorable and gets you just a little further from the truth.

 

I will now take a cue from Rothko ... Bye bye.

Silence is so accurate.

[Allen Herbert]

First of all I have only offered you facts, without any political biased. Your imagination has decided that I'm a leftie of persuasion. This is the problem with imagination, without any recall to actual facts; it enters the world of fairy tales which is a very hard place to escape from. Ask anyone who has been captured by fairies, they will tell you that is so;))

[Allen Herbert]

"Silence is so accurate" samstevens.

 

In a previous incantation you felt for interesting debates, there should be challenges. Now when challenged you have gone off in a huff.

 

You really should not take things so personal, it is a debate on a public forum. I have yet to sit on the font of all knowledge I just offer my thoughts.

 

Methinks, anyone who has a opinion, think everyone else should agree with them, otherwise they will get upset and call you names or sulk..

 

Really.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

"In one sentence you're talking about the importance of heritage, in the next sentence, you're saying heritage is a fairytale. Make up your mind already" Phil.

 

Just offering facts nothing else. You referred to the 2nd world war and the British at that time were morally corrupt.

 

That was my reading of your post.

[Allen Herbert]

" perhaps talk about the truth and about actual liberty and freedom. I'm waiting"

 

Just did, with actual factual information. Re read.

 

Real world information.

[Sandy Vongries]

Recent quote - prominent politician. "...We choose truth over facts."

[Allen Herbert]

Your believes are simple to understand.

 

You believe western culture is intricately superior to any culture. You also believe that immigration pollutes western culture, and the liberal left is the main cause of this immigration and pollution of western values. Indeed, the far right supports those views, and in Europe/USA they are becoming a political force.

 

Those thoughts to my mind smell of one thing and only one thing. The white man claiming superiority over all other races and cultures.

 

Thats how other cultures/peoples will see those believes.; which is a really bad thing for us, humanity.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

Jeez, Thatcher,was so far right, she fell of the edge, and had to be removed. Think, poll tax, which nearly started a revolution in the UK.

 

The part building of roads in the UK was given to her husbands company, and her son was busy trying to start a revolution in a African country which had serious mineral wealth.

 

Unfortunately for him and his mother, he was caught, and serious money was paid to free him.

 

Learn facts, Phil.

[Allen Herbert]

"Recent quote - prominent politician. "...We choose truth over facts." Sandy.

 

Who's truths? Hey, why bother factual truths. Better to spin them a story, to make them feel all good, and warm inside.

[samstevens]

Recent quote - prominent politician. "...We choose truth over facts."

LOL. In Biden’s case, it’s just one in a long line of verbal gaffes. Thank goodness, though, that great artists knew the difference between facts and truth. That’s what brought us Impressionism, Expressionism, Cubism, abstraction, Surrealism, and Dadaism, among others. My guess is that even documentarians and realists know the difference and realize how the same facts presented differently can tell different emotional, aesthetic and personal truths.

[Allen Herbert]

"What do you think?" Phil.

 

Well, I like to think of myself as a free thinker, not bonded to any politics. Also, being a historical buff, I like to learn facts as opposed to fiction.

 

As far as different cultures go, they all have values in their own ways. Western culture is very much based on materialism, and material wealth, as a judge of individuals standing in society. Eastern, culture is less so, spiritually, and the family tend to be of greater value. Although, being permeated with western values of materialism this is becoming less so. There is a strong argument that western values are destroying the planet due their religious fervour for materialism, the God of the western world.

 

Let us look at Islamic culture which you have a problem with.

 

Women and men are equal in Islam only a recent value in the Christian west. Muslims fast for 30 days in every year to experience what it is like to be poor and hungry. Muslims give 2.5 per cent of their saving to the poor. Violence and suicide missions are un Islamic as with Christians. But in all faiths there are those who make up their own believes and call it Islam or Christian. The core of Islam is a religion of peace which is reiterated many times in the Quran. In the Quran 5.16 states that God dislikes any disturbance of peace. God loves not the aggressors 2.190.

 

Back to the fact thing. There are Muslims and Christians who make up their own personnel religion, and claim they are Muslims or Christians. This is why facts are so important to understand ,well, anything. If you do not understand the actual facts, then you will be led down the garden path by any Dick or Harry, and start spouting their nonsense.

[samstevens]

Sounds like blah blah blah blah blah political rant blah blah blah blah left this right that rant rant rant blah blah blah

Only if you're tone deaf. I wasn't speaking of morals. The kind of thing I was talking about is, for example, two photographers going out and taking a picture of the "same" thing and coming up with two very different interpretations. That's not moral relativism. It's photography.

 

The world of the surrealists is, at least to some extent, a world of dreams, not facts, and dreams hold many truths.

[Allen Herbert]

Nice to see you back, Sam.

 

Phil, do not box me. Whether in a religious way, or a political way. Rude.

 

I like to understand all things and I do my research.

[Allen Herbert]

" had you been reading me with an open mind to what I’m actually saying, you’d know nothing I said disagrees with that. I am DIFFERENTIATING between fact and Truth. I am not saying facts don’t matter. Metaphors can be eminently visual and photographs can be eminently metaphorical"

 

Indeed, metaphors can be eminently visual.

 

I was thinking of Shakespeare while reading your thoughts.

 

Antony speaks over Caesar's body

 

O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,

That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!

Thou art the ruins of the noblest man

That ever lived in the tide of times.

Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!

Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,—

Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips,

To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—

A curse shall light upon the limbs of men;

Domestic fury and fierce civil strife

Shall cumber all the parts of Italy;

Blood and destruction shall be so in use

And dreadful objects so familiar

That mothers shall but smile when they behold

Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;

All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:

And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,

With Ate by his side come hot from hell,

Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice

Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;

That this foul deed shall smell above the earth

[Allen Herbert]

"LOL. Your ignorance here is laughable. The reason for Western culture being more materialistic is precisely because of the decline of religious and spiritual morals in the West," Phil.

 

Thought I implied that. Is that a good thing?

 

This is not true and misses an important nuance. When they say that “Islam is a religion of peace” what they mean is that as long as you surrender and comply with their doctrine" Phil.

 

Pray do tell, where does it say that in the Quran? That is the problem, with folk interpretations of something the really do not have a clue about. Probably never opened the Quran. But they have a lot to say about it.

 

The reality is the Quran respects all religion and believes in religious freedom for all faiths.

 

Really, you should do your own research, Phil. Not keep listening to the bloke next door.

 

PS never said any culture was superior to another. Just offered some facts.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

Your ignorance of Islamic culture beggars believe. Sort of feel I'm reading some uniformed nonsense from some right wing rag or crap from the cult of isis.. This is the problem when facts become stained with fairy tales. I suppose for many ignorance is bliss.

 

Ask a Muslim women, in the street tomorrow, if she feels supressed. Ask the question in the real world learn the facts. Not from some right wing rag which has permeated your brain turning your mind into a zombie. Learn facts for yourself-ask the question of a Muslim women.Then ask the question of a Christian women if she feels supressed.

 

The answers might surprise you.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Allen Herbert

[Sandy Vongries]

Moderator: What has this to do with photography? Take it outside.