Must be a record.

Some folk would say the camera has soul.

 

Far from the computer generated images of modern lenses.

Common, imagine, you were all photographers, and enjoyed sharing your photos with other folks.

 

How nice would that be, for you, and other folk.

 

My dog is licking my arm while I'm posting..

 

Err, sloppy stuff.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Allen Herbert

;))

Allen, is social isolation getting to you, perchance?

I also try not to post when my judgement is impaired.

 

Yes, but when your judgment is impaired, you are usually the last to know :rolleyes:

Yes, but when your judgment is impaired, you are usually the last to know :rolleyes:

The primary reason I avoid psychoactive substances. I guess that makes me boring. I find I have a sufficiently difficult time keeping my foot out of my mouth when I'm completely sober. Hate to think what idiocies I might spout in an inebriated state. (My wife tells me I'm pretty funny just before the general anesthesia takes hold. :D )

"Allen, is social isolation getting to you, perchance? "Robin

 

True, Robin,

 

Jeez, Robin, you must be the most ancient poster on PN. Are you still getting out there? doing the photo thing? Post some photos of your exploits would be nice..

 

"Yes, but when your judgment is impaired, you are usually the last to know" JDM.

 

True, JDM. Anyway, where did you get your make believe soldiers uniform from? I want one, sort of a cool thing to wear. Only, of course when my judgement is impaired;)

 

"The primary reason I avoid psychoactive substances. I guess that makes me boring. I find I have a sufficiently difficult time keeping my foot out of my mouth when I'm completely sober" David.

 

Put your foot in your mouth on occasion, David. Hey, do you really want to be thought of as that boring bloke?

 

All in good humour gentle folk.

Put your foot in your mouth on occasion, David. Hey, do you really want to be thought of as that boring bloke?

Too late! My children will confirm it's who I am. They're seemingly less embarrassed by it the older they get...:eek:

As if we needed one, here's further evidence that it pays to think (and self-edit) before one speaks/posts/tweets/etc... (LINK) I support being honest about what one thinks and feels, but that does not mean we shouldn't be thoughtful, diplomatic, and kind in how we express ourselves.

As if we needed one, here's further evidence that it pays to think (and self-edit) before one speaks/posts/tweets/etc... (LINK) I support being honest about what one thinks and feels, but that does not mean we shouldn't be thoughtful, diplomatic, and kind in how we express ourselves.

Well, there are two ways to think about this. Most people do check themselves when they speak or write and most people may not have thoughts similar to those of Allen or the professor you linked to. In both Allen’s case and the professor’s, I’m kind of glad they don’t filter themselves because it gives me a true picture of who they are. That professor meant what he said and it’s good for the college and his students to know that.

 

Just as important as it might be for each of us to show the level of respect we think is “appropriate,” there are times when respect is undeserved, and more passionate, unfiltered speech can be warranted.

 

And just as important as modulating our own voices anywhere from whispers to shouts, depending on what and how we best want to express ourselves, is the modulation of how we listen to and give space to others to express themselves. I rarely judge a PN member based on one photo or one forum post. It’s usually a cumulative affair and it’s pretty easy to spot when an otherwise sane voice loses it momentarily as it’s easy to spot when an often looney-tunes voice is simply vomiting more crazy.

 

I see it as my responsibility to speak or write in a voice of my choosing and also my responsibility to allow others to do the same. Rather than trying to change the way someone communicates, I’m happy to listen or half listen or ignore as I see fit. But I generally prefer to know the realities about people rather than the pretenses they might choose to put forward to hide malignancies I think it’s important to be aware of, such as the professor in your link was obviously harboring.

Just as important as it might be for each of us to show the level of respect we think is “appropriate,” there are times when respect is undeserved, and more passionate, unfiltered speech can be warranted.

 

The degree to which this is true is highly subjective, as evinced in the raucous demands or attacks against any individual who fails in any way to hoe to the current political line. We see extraordinary levels of criticism and condemnation of any person who publicly states that "all lives matter", apparently because today we can only focus on prejudice towards and mistreatment of a specific class of person. If I say I hope to treat with every human being as my brother or sister, with kindness and respect, am I thereby diminishing anyone? Yet, I suppose I'll receive criticism for even postulating such a position... I'm as human as anyone else, and far from perfect. I have my moments of anger, of weakness, of impatience, and even selfishness. I hope I'm able to manage my self-expression so as to avoid giving equal time to the less laudatory aspects of my human condition, and focus more on the best I desire of myself. In doing so it is my sincere desire to become more what I hope to be.

 

there are times when respect is undeserved

 

Even if this is sometimes the case, how much better and more efficacious to treat one's enemies with respect, to love those who mistreat us, and to seek and find the best in every person? This is not to be construed as condoning or ignoring evil. Quite the opposite. We should take positive action to correct what is wrong, both in ourselves and our society. It is manifestly impossible to correct what is wrong in another person. They must do it themselves. Our best hope is, first, to model the behaviors we desire in others, and, second, to encourage others to do the same, preferably through positive means. A religious leader recently said, "Never has one wrong been corrected by a second wrong. Evil has never been resolved by more evil." (Russell M. Nelson) I suppose there are times and circumstances when vituperation and spite would be deemed as deserved. Yet, to what end? Both MLK Jr and Gandhi modeled respectful and loving behaviors in the face of outrageous discrimination, and achieved more thereby than all the hateful militancy in history.

Edited June 3, 2020 by DavidTriplett

Our best hope is, first, to model the behaviors we desire in others, and, second, to encourage others to do the same, preferably through positive means. A religious leader recently said

My hope is for diversity in thought and behavior, not for others to behave as I do or as I desire and not to encourage others to do the same. The problem with much religion is its outreach to get others to think or act like them.

how much better and more efficacious to treat one's enemies with respect

Often not much better at all. I may treat with respect folks I disagree with if I feel they deserve it. I rarely treat true enemies with respect, and there are true enemies in the world.

"all lives matter"

As far as this goes, I agree that all lives do matter. But when "all lives matter" comes as a response to "black lives matter," I find it much more suspect a phrase. Context is important with all kinds of utterances.

"all lives matter"

As a followup and to clarify. "Black Lives Matter" is a slogan folks have adopted to remind the country at large that they're often being treated as if they don't matter. It's NOT to say black lives are the only lives that matter. I see responding with "all lives matter" as a minimization of what "black lives matter" is trying to get across and an almost implied suggestion that saying "black lives matter" is somehow neglecting others' lives. When one is oppressed and demands equality for who one is, the answer to that is not to tell them everyone matters equally. It's to LISTEN to their complaint and change the system that's killing young black men at the hands of police at an alarming rate.

 

THAT might show more respect (if one is wanting to do so) than responding with a hollow platitude like "all lives matter."

“Black lives matter” = “Black lives matter too”,

NOT

“Only black lives matter”.

“Black lives matter” = “Black lives matter too”,

NOT

“Only black lives matter”.

 

Yes! I couldn't agree more. The vehemence of your responses illustrates my previous point. It does not matter how much I agree with anybody, if my statement is construed as undermining the issue at large. I'm about as much of a WASP as one could ask for, and if one needed to categorize me. Yet, I've lived in places where I was harassed, spit upon, threatened, and physically attacked, not for any behavior I exhibited or words I uttered, but for others' association of me with positions or issues based solely on my physical appearance. Sounds far fetched, I know, but Argentina was not a good place to be an American in 1982. So, to at least some degree, I have real empathy for those who suffer due to prejudice. I still believe strongly that responding to hate and prejudice with more of the same is not the road to fixing what's wrong with our society.

It does not matter how much I agree with anybody, if my statement is construed as undermining the issue at large.

If you express yourself clearly, you're more likely to be understood. If you reduce your own position to a statement like "all lives matter" then the fault is yours for the response you get. You have ample opportunity to speak and explain yourself here. You brought up "all lives matter" when the topic of race wasn't even being discussed. Those three words have been adopted by many racists and people unsympathetic with black equality and recognition. If you have a more nuanced view on the subject of race, then simply bringing up "all lives matter" out of the blue does yourself a great disservice. As you advised the professor, think before you write. If you don't want to, fine, then don't blame responders for making conclusions based on the words you've written.

 

By the way, the fact that one has suffered a form of discrimination does not show empathy. The words we speak and the actions we take do.

If you express yourself clearly, you're more likely to be understood. If you reduce your own position to a statement like "all lives matter" then the fault is yours for the response you get. You have ample opportunity to speak and explain yourself here

 

Does this apply to all equally? Should the protesters be carrying signs worded as suggested by Supriyo? I'm NOT saying they should, but there seems to be an assumption that anybody who looks like me has a burden to be more thoughtful and considerate than the overt, recognized victims of oppression, which is at odds with your position of saying exactly what one thinks without overt self-editing. Must "all lives matter" only be interpreted as depreciating the message of black lives matter? Certainly it's been used by some (even many) as a taunt, but that is not it's only meaning, any more so than assuming that "black lives matter" means that "only black lives matter".

 

Since you used the pronoun "you" I assume you're addressing my statements specifically, and not a hypothetical? I thought I was careful and considerate in my personal expression. Please recall I said:

We see extraordinary levels of criticism and condemnation of any person who publicly states that "all lives matter", apparently because today we can only focus on prejudice towards and mistreatment of a specific class of person. If I say I hope to treat with every human being as my brother or sister, with kindness and respect, am I thereby diminishing anyone? Yet, I suppose I'll receive criticism for even postulating such a position...

An assumption of racist intent is just as prejudiced as actual racism. We should all give one another the benefit of the doubt.

there seems to be an assumption that anybody who looks like me has a burden to be more thoughtful and considerate

What in the hell are you talking about? Which protestor assumed something about YOU? Were you in the presence of a protestor who made an assumption about you or people who look like you? You’re telling fictions and projecting assumptions. As far as people who look like you, what my tv has been showing me is that many if not most of the protestors are WHITE! I’d suggest most of them would be happy for you to join them and don’t particularly care about the words you might write in a photography forum.

Edited June 3, 2020 by samstevens

If I say I hope to treat with every human being as my brother or sister, with kindness and respect, am I thereby diminishing anyone?

No. But if you say it in response to someone chanting "black lives matter" and don't add that you also understand that they have, as a race, been treated particularly badly in this country and that you'd like that to change, then they have every right to assume by your omission that you're not empathetic to what they're trying to tell you. Again, coming back to an oppressed person with a platitude about how you love everyone equally without acknowledging that you understand why they feel the way they do and that they have been made to feel less loved and equal in this country rings very hollow.

In any case, words of love are important and a good start but also only take us so far. What the protestors and George Floyd’s family (and I) want is structural and policy change. So, without an accompanying support or demand or vote for such change, professions of love for all mankind sound nice but are more often abstract rather than concrete. The mother whose son may be detained or not come home alive because a policeman saw him driving late at night wearing a hoodie while black wants something concrete. A change in police policy needs to accompany words of love.

Moderator comment: Gents, I have not been aware of where this went. As you all well know photography site. This has not a darn thing to do with that avocation. Please drop it or take it outside of photo.net. Continue and I will lock it down.

Consider it done.

"But when "all lives matter" comes as a response to "black lives matter," I find it much more suspect a phrase. Context is important with all kinds of utterances." Sam.

 

Context, reveals quite whispers of thought.

 

Of course data and photographs should not be feared....and thoughts should not be hidden under a cloak of fear.They offer truths, like the massacre and abasement of native folk in so many countries as an example.

 

Anyway enough starting to get too heavy.

 

So, us and all, being photographers....time for a photo to reflect our thought.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Allen Herbert