ray .

Just make what you want of the post. It means whatever you want it to mean. That's good Dustin. I always liked her but never had any of her music, but I'm going to hunt for some of it now. Just came across this yesterday so the post was partially an excuse to post the video, both for the artist, the person, the camera, and topic of this forum. This is what I watched first before seeing the video up top. Years go by so fast. She's changed but still damn good. So naturally talented and down to earth.

I mean, who could question the artistic integrity of Natalie Merchant, amirite?

Now I'm going to be interested to go back and see if the papers I used for silver gelatin prints used OBA's.

Is it this one, or something else?

There is one video from Red River where the guy says you can load papers up to about 13 mil thick in the Epson P800 sheet feeder, but I've not been able to confirm that anywhere with Epson. I asked the tech if there was a max thickness for the sheet feeder and he only repeated what the touchscreen says for the range of thicknesses for the fine art front loader, which works out to anything thicker than about 11.4 mil. Generally though Epson's answer is just that the front loader should be used for 'fine art' paper.

Thanks for that paddler4. I'm pretty sure I've figured out the Epson P800 now. Instructions on placing paper into the front loader state "Make sure the paper is flush against the right, then pull the paper back gently to align against the edge of the manual tray." Maybe my reading comprehension is compromised when it comes to technical issues. My only thought was that the paper needed to be squarely flush against the right side along its full length. There's a lip about 1/2 inch long at the front of the tray that the paper needs to be up against, but with smaller lengths like letter size, if you push it completely flush against the right and leave it there, it ends up slightly angled inside the printer. With 13 x 19 paper it is straightened out since it extends further in, so it butts up against an edge that letter size doesn't. I was confused why the front short edge of the paper was out of square with the front edge of the tray when keeping the whole paper completely to the right, and mentioned this to tech support, but I don't think they understood what I was saying. When inserting the paper through the front it tends to get blocked, so last night I angled the front corner through the gap it needed to go through, observing from the open top. That paper printed fine but the corner came out a little dog eared, so it does seem it's better to just load paper from the back pushing it toward the front of the front load tray. Doing this with letter sized paper, you pretty much have to put your hand through the open top to help push the paper toward the front…… All in all, not an ideal design, but once you figure it out, as someone discussing the issue elsewhere said, "It's a design flaw but not a fatal one." Hopefully this thread comes out a net positive. I think at least some of the people complaining about the front load mechanism trashing numerous pieces of fine art paper were making the same mistake I was!

Still working with this. I may or may not have corrected the problem, but there's another possible issue that just popped up.

Thanks. Any more specifics on the Canon Pro 1000 you want to offer, I'd love to hear. I don't really need size capacity over 13 x 19, but the smaller printers seem to have small cartridges which make the ink more expensive per quantity. I may give the Canon P-10 a look too, but the cartridges are only 13ml. I'll check out the Red River site.

So…… Epson support has been great over the phone, but they can't fix the problem I'm still having with the 2nd printer with letter size fine art paper in the front loader. They've offered a 3rd replacement printer which I've declined. The only other thing I may do is buy a brand new box of paper and see if using older papers is the issue, but I doubt it. I mentioned to them more than once that my photoshop is the old CS4 extended, but they didn't really respond to that. At this point I'm wondering if one of the Canon models that uses pigment based ink might be the way to go, or see if I can find any evidence that Epson has plans for a revision of the P800.

… The only fail on my side that I can think of is that all of my paper is several years old. I'm also still using Photoshop CS4 Extended which is doing weird things lately. The results with the replacement printer are better though, so, I don't know.

So I front loaded letter size fine art paper, first with Epson Exhibition Fiber, then with Museo Silver Rag and successfully made a print on each. However... This printer accepted both tries and printed fine, but….. damage to the lower left corner with some also along the bottom left side, and 2 straight identical very light parallel surface marks each about 1 1/4 inches long. The surface marks are barely visible and wouldn't bother me but the dent to the corner and edge side scrape is just weird. Overall the damage is less than with the other printer, but it's still unacceptable. What's odd too is that when I make sure the long edge of the paper is squarely up against the side of the tray, the shorter edge visible in the front is out of square with the metal edge of the front of the tray. I have inserted a 3rd type of paper and they're all the same that way. Does this affect anything? I have no idea. Going to call tech support tomorrow and see what the heck is going on with letter paper size in the front loader.

Not using Exhibition Fiber going forward, other than the box of 13 x 19 I still have, unless I just sell it on ebay. A photographer friend recommended it, but I wasn't really aware that papers with optical brighteners aren't the best for longevity, until recently. The prints I did several years ago with it seem fine for now. All are either in a storage box or behind glass. Some of the unused batch I have seems slightly yellowed, but not too noticeably.

That's interesting. With that comment he still seems to think the Canon is the superior machine, for color especially, but color prints aren't my first priority. According to him both printers have their advantages and disadvantages, which one would expect. The most glaring issue for me with the Epson of course is the front loader, but I just received the replacement so I'll see if it's any smoother with that than the first one. Some buyer's reviews on the Canon indeed mention the machine uses a large amount of ink. Wish I could try that printer out too but there's no way can I justify buying both.

I found this guy Jose Rodriguez on youtube who is really into inkjet printing. I considered returning the Epson and trading it for the Canon Pro-1000 but he says the Canon is best for someone like a commercial printer who prints almost every day. The Epson can sit for a couple weeks and be fine as far as clogging. Printers need to be used though, and if you don't print then run regular nozzle checks. My 3800 sat unused for 3 years and was fine when I started it up again, but maybe it would have lasted longer if I had run it more often and done the nozzle checks. The Canon does automatic maintenance on the head that uses ink if you don't use it, but potentially would be the better machine if you did a whole lot of printing. Most hobbyists don't, so the complaint in reviews is that the Canon uses too much ink. Here's one of the videos I watched where he may have mentioned some of this. He does go off on esoteric tangents at times but I think he's worth checking out:

Although I got 13x19" Exhibition Fiber to work fairly well loading through the back into the front loader, 8.5 x 11 (letter) has been 100% unsuccessful. In all I've sent nearly a dozen sheets of it through the front fine art loader, trying from both front and back access, with all of them being skewed or jammed, damaging the paper. Actually there was one that actually loaded and printed but it also damaged the paper. Got Epson tech support on the phone Saturday; she had me change a setting in Mac preferences, but that didn't fix it either. Now Epson is sending me a new machine. I'll update here when I see how that one works out.

UPDATE (for any of the Epson experts who are hopefully taking a look at this thread): So even though the drop down menu when selecting Sheet Feeder on printer settings from the Epson P800 driver on my Mac gives the option of Epson papers 'Exhibition Fiber' , 'Legacy Platine (17 mil thick)' and others, Epson support tells me that 'fine art papers' should be loaded through the front loader. They couldn't give me a number on maximum thickness for paper in the Sheet Feeder though, so it seems like they're just going by basic descriptions that can be found in the manual. It took 10 minutes to get the answer I was given after the person talking to me consulted with someone else…… I just don't understand why the Epson driver would contain a menu that lists the same papers as options for the Sheet Feeder that include 'fine art' papers as does the Front Load tray selection. When I think about it tech support's answer that 'fine art papers' should be loaded in the front loader is kind of vague, since nowhere have I seen what clearly qualifies as a 'Fine art paper', and what does not.

Correction. The print setting menu (but not touchscreen) does have Exhibition Fibre as an option when using the top sheet feeder, so that's interesting. Which means I should be able to use Gold Fibre Silk without using the front feeder. I'll see if I can confirm with Epson. The person online who said Gold Fibre Silk fed through the top feeder would damage the printer over time may be wrong. I've also tried using the front feeder by loading from the back which some have recommended. That's a work in progress, because I'm still not sure it avoids denting one corner of the paper.

I don't see Epson Exhibition Fiber listed specifically anywhere other than in the manual that lists it as one of the papers to use with Photo Black. Velvet Fine Art (19mil thick) is listed on the touchscreen in the menu for top load auto sheet feeder though, which seems odd, since it's a thick paper. Maybe because it's a lighter weight? All very confusing, and now I can't get the printer to print at all from the top auto feeder, even with Epson Premium Luster, and double checking the USB connection after getting a message the printer wasn't connected. I don't recall the last time I was this flummoxed over a piece of equipment. Maybe the first time I used a computer, certainly nothing like this with the Epson 3800.

So I noticed on the touch screen there is a 'Thick Paper' setting that was set on OFF. I clicked it ON, then front loaded a paper and actually got a print. However, the leading right corner of the paper was again dented and also the surface of the paper slightly scored in that corner! So I tried another new paper. Result: Paper jammed! I now have about 8 sheets of damaged paper. * NOTE: In this Red River paper video showing the Epson P800 being loaded the guy says you can top load sheet feeder with paper up to "about 13 mil thickness". I see no reference to that in Epson literature or anywhere else. The touch screen defines Fine Art Media for front load as: (0.29-0.7 mm thick). 0.29 mm = about 11.3 mil, so from that it sounds like anything thicker than 11.3 or 11.4 mil should be loaded in the front loader.

Thanks and yes I've seen that. What happens though is once I have inserted the paper and it seems aligned as they suggest, and then press the button for the printer to load the paper, it goes through a few second process and gives me a message that the paper is either skewed or jammed…… I'm trying to load letter size paper. No idea if larger sizes are less problematic or not.

Crickets Is there no one who will defend this printer? Or do people just not print their photos anymore? digitaldog?

From my experience so far, trying to use it successfully numerous times, the front loading mechanism for loading fine art paper in the Epson P800 is one of the most ridiculous pieces of design I've ever seen. I gave it no thought when I ordered the printer that it would be so different than using my old Epson 3800. Reading online, I see there are numerous people who have- as I have- wasted paper trying to navigate loading paper in the front loader. The top sheet feeder for non-fine art paper works fine, but the front loader is a nightmare. I've read over several times online people explaining how to "get the hang of it". While they admit it's a design flaw, they seem just fine with it, having apparently conquered the beast. I'm about to give up though and return the printer. Once I got it out of the printer, I literally just took the dented up piece of paper from the last attempt and slammed it to the floor. Aside from issues with the front loader itself, the touch screen is also a hassle and slows down the process. It's already given me incorrect error messages. I was wondering how it would improve the process as opposed to exclusively using menus on computer screen, and I'm still wondering. It seems that unless I find a video that goes through the process and visually shows the work arounds for loading fine art paper that are nowhere to be found in the manual or anywhere else online, this printer is of no use to me. Aside from that, I can't say I trust the reliability of the touch screen either. I've used Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (which is not as thick as some other papers) in the top loader no problem, but have read that long term that will damage the printer.

Reading now on Luminous Landscape that people having trouble with the front load is typical. I've read a description of how to get the hang of it, with the writer saying it's a design flaw but not a fatal one. I've read it twice and don't quite understand it, so I'll have to work on it some more. Also apparently using something as thick (but not really a thick paper) like Ilford Gold Fibre Silk from the top feeder might not be good for the printer long run. Unfortunate this is an issue. I suppose if I figure how to work with it I won't be worrying about it, but for now, it's disappointing.

One other thing- and I may make a separate post on it- Is that the front feeder seems a little awkward and problematic to use. I've followed instructions with it and out of 4 pieces of letter size paper only one was printed without problem. The others had the front corner of the paper dented in the process. I've found that with Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (12.5 mil) the top sheet feeder works fine. I want to order some Canson Platine Fibre Rag (15.6 mil) but I don't want to have to use the front loader….. So far I've only printed on letter size.

I removed the maintenance cartridge and ink is just soaked into the central portion of it- front and back are dry. Replaced it back and the menu came back to normal, so maybe it was just a message error. The printer hadn't been shut off for over 48 hours (now 72+) so maybe that could have something to do with an error? I've made a few prints with it since the issue and it seems fine. None of 3 people on the phone at BH photo could tell me yes or no if they'd sell a printer as new that was returned with the buyer taking it out of the box without ever setting it up. I'm going to figure the chances of that happening aren't likely, but even if it did, the printer I would assume would still perform as new. I've got the 1 year warranty in any case, and will be exercising it enough to see if the problem arises again.