Need advice developing old 120 roll film

[tom_halfhill]

I need some developing advice. Over the holidays I found a partially

exposed roll of b&w film in my dad's 1930s-vintage Kodak Brownie

camera. I'm sure the film isn't as old as the camera, but the film

probably dates to the 1950s or 1960s. I shot the rest of the roll and

wound it off.

<P>

Strangely, the paper backing doesn't list the film type. The paper is

black and silver. At the top it says "620 Exposed" in large type.

Below it says "B&W - Pan - Made in U.S.A."

<P>

I assume the film is either Verichrome or Plus-X. Almost nothing else

would expose properly in this camera, which has a fixed shutter speed

(probably 1/25) and a fixed aperture (probably f/16). Can anyone

recommend a developing time in T-Max developer? I just happen to have

T-Max developer on hand.

<P>

Developing by inspection would probably be the wisest thing to do, but

I don't have a green panchromatic-safe safelight. In 1990, I

successfully developed a 35-year-old roll of Ilford HP3 b&w film in

T-Max developer by starting with the development time for modern HP5

Plus and doubling it. The negatives were heavily fogged but printable.

(See my 1991 <A HREF="http://www.halfhill.com/future.html">Shutterbug

article</A>).

[john tonai]

I processed a roll of film like that years ago. The leader of the backing paper had the

film type listed at the beginning of the roll. That might give you a starting point for

developing.

[tom_halfhill]

Yeah, the film type is probably on the leader, but I won't be able to see the leader before winding all the film off the spool and onto the developing reel -- and then I won't be able to read the leader in the dark.

[silent1]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but after you put the lid on the daylight tank and turn on the lights, you'll be able to read the leader. And even if you're one who likes to plunge the unsuspecting film into the open tank already full of developer to get things started, you can turn the lights out and go back to that step after reading the leader and deciding how to set your darkroom timer.

 

BTW, I recently did this with a roll of Verichrome; it was clearly marked on the tail end leader (visible with the Exposed sticker still on), so you probably don't have Verichrome -- it also had red backing paper on ever roll I can recall using, between about 1970 and 1980 anyway. I had very good results on mine with HC-110, 1:63 from U.S. sale syrup, for 8 minutes at 69 F; HC-110 is good for this because it's a low-fog developer.

 

What you might have there is Agfa Pan -- they sold a Pan and an All Weather Pan, most likely ASA 50 and ASA 100 or 125 respectively.

[tom_halfhill]

Duh! It just hit me that I can load the film onto the reel, put the reel into an empty daylight tank, and THEN turn on the lights to see if the paper leader says the film type. The film will wait in the daylight tank for as long as it takes to figure out a development strategy.

 

I should have thought of this before, but I'm not accustomed to developing roll film...

[john_shriver]

You won't be putting the paper backing in the tank, so you can look at it after you put the lid on. (I'm sure you realized that after posting your response.)

 

If it's Verichrome, it's Verichrome Pan, since the preceeding Verichrome (V120) was orthochromatic.

 

My guess is it's not Kodak film. If it is, I can give you the times for their 1940's films.

 

Developing times used to be pretty long in the 1940's, like 15 to 20 minutes in D-76 at 68F.

[silent1]

Ah, the power of photo.net -- three of us came up with the same answer in the same minute, give or take a detail or two. Meantime...<p>

 

<i>The film will wait in the daylight tank for as long as it takes to figure out a development strategy.</i><p>

 

Be sure to mark the tank (stick on a strip of masking tape and write the information on it or something similar) so you a) don't forget it's got film in it, and b) don't forget <i>what</i> film you have in it, once you know what kind it is.

[stephen hazelton]

Keep in mind that those last few frames that you fired off can be used as test strips to check your developing times.

[edgard_engelman]

Tom, in my book entitled "How to make good pictures" by Kodak, and dated 1951, Verichrome is described as Orthochromatic. The panchromatic films being Kodak Super-XX and Kodak Plus-X.

[tom_halfhill]

The mystery deepens. I just loaded the film onto a developing reel -- not easy, because the old film was curled up like macaroni -- and stored it safely in a daylight tank. When I flipped on the lights and examined the backing paper, I was surprised to discover that it still says nothing about the film type. No film name, no brand name, zilch. Just another "620" and the frame numbers.

 

However, I no longer believe it's Plus-X or Verichrome, because there's nothing yellow associated with this roll of film. Just black and silver.

 

Could it be Ilford or Agfa? In any case, I still don't have a clue about guessing a development time. The suggestion to clip off the last few frames (which I shot to finish the roll) and developing it as a test strip is a good one. Except I'll have to remove the film from the developing reel and then wind it back on again, because the last frames on the roll are now at the center of the reel. I don't look forward to handling that incredibly curly film twice again.

 

Maybe I'll just take the modern Plus-X developing time and double it. That would probably put me in the ballpark.

[lbi115l]

I'd recommend the clip test. I'm not sure when they started with edge markings, but if that film has them, you're in luck. Even if the last few frames don't come out well, you'll probably be able to read any markings burned in to the rebate.

[john_shriver]

If it's very curly, it might be nitrate base, which would put it at about 1950 or earlier. (You can test by taking a sliver and seeing how it burns on the stove. If it burns really fast and dramatically, it's nitrate. Burn a sliver of modern film to compare.)

 

Of course, it may just be curly due to the tiny 620 spool. But I did try a roll of 1944 Kodak Verichrome (Nitrate), and it was quite curly. (Not to mention incredibly dead!)

 

All of the 1945 kodak roll films were developed for 17 minutes in D-76 at 68F, straight up. This applied to Verichrome, Plus-X, and Super-XX. Those long times were the norm then, and the 35mm versions took even longer. (Thick emulsions.) While TMax developer appears to be a bit more active than D-76, but you may need some push, so that might be a suitable time. But start with the tail, and see how the base fog is.

 

(Edgard, Verichrome [ortho] was replaced by Verichrome Pan about 1956. Prefix changed from V to VP.)

[al_kaplan1]

I think the film was probably Ansco with that color paper backing. In those days the average "drugstore" photo finisher souped ALL the film together, regardless of brand, so the various films were pretty much designed for standard processing, much like today's color films which ALL use process C-41. 15 Minutes in D-76 is as good a guess as any. It will probably have a high fog level no matter what you do, but you might get some printable negatives anyway. Good luck!

[rick_jones5]

How about using Diafine!

[jim_appleyard]

I wouldn't use t-max dev; too modern for this film. Diafine is a speed increaser. That could work. D-76 is a fair bet, but I think your best bet is to go with a divided developer. These are very forgiving. If you mix your own chemistry or know someone that does, try D2D from Anchell's book "The Darkroom Cookbook"

[lex_jenkins]

I can't recommend Diafine for long-expired film, much as I like Diafine, especially with Tri-X.

 

Earlier this year I tested Diafine on some expired Tri-X from a bulk roll that I estimated to be 6-7 years old. I'd used this same bulk roll and developed the negs in other developers (Rodinal, Ilfosol-S, ID-11, etc.) with good results. But in Diafine the expired film produced dense, almost impenetrable fog. And this was with fresh exposures.

 

No telling what effect Diafine might have on film that was exposed and expired long ago. Not good, I expect.

[silent1]

I'd suggest HC-110 for film that might have a high base fog due to age. I've recently developed two rolls of film I exposed close to 25 years ago -- one Verichrome Pan 620, the other Plus-X 135 -- in HC-110, no push given; the VP looks great other than the rust stains at the edge from the spool, while the Plus-X is a little thin, most likely due to underexposure when originally shot. HC-110 also gives very short development times, at least with reasonably modern films; I've been using 1:63, half of Dilution B, in order to keep times over 5 minutes. Old Plus-X gets 9 minutes at 68F with that dilution, and the 1978 vintage Verichrome Pan got 8 minutes; by comparison, TMY was perfect after 12 minutes.

 

As I posted before, most likely that film is Agfa or Ansco (they were really the same), which was sold in a silver and gray box. And as others have said, most films before about 1970 used very similar times within a given ASA speed; you could probably soup that film for 8 minutes in HC-110 1:63 from concentrate and get perfectly acceptable results with minimal fog.

[george_conboy1]

I had a similar situation recently having unloaded a roll of Verichrome from a Brownie Reflex that had been given to me. The film had been exposed in the early 50's and then the camera had been packed away and forgotten. I souped it in straight D76 for 15 minutes and was able to make 2 decent prints. If I had it to do over I would have let it go for 20 minutes.

[tom_halfhill]

Too bad: I developed the film, but there were no usable exposures. My guess is that whatever latent exposures might have existed on the film were obliterated by years of light fog through the little red window.

 

I ended up developing the film for 16.5 minutes at 68F in Kodak T-Max developer, standard dilution. This is 3x as much development as modern Plus-X requires in T-Max developer. The D-76 time for most 1950s-era b&w films was 16 minutes at 68F. T-Max is a more active developer than D-76, so I figured 16.5 minutes would give the extra push needed by the long-latent exposures.

 

Unfortunately, the only recognizable images on the developed film were the few pictures I shot last week to finish the roll. They were a little thin, but would have been quite printable. All were heavily fogged along the film edges. The rest of the roll was almost completely black -- no images at all. But the black wasn't solid. It had a "fibrous" quality, almost like reticulation, except it wasn't. I'm pretty sure it was the fiber pattern of the backing paper imprinted on the film by light leaking through the red film-counter window. Those red windows were designed for ortho or blue-sensitive films, not panchromatic films, and this particular roll of film was clearly marked "Pan."

 

I never did identify the film type or brand. There were no visible edge markings after the film was developed.

 

Oh, well...at least I tried and came close!