Nikon f3 fast speed circuits

[probablypasta]

Hi all,

I've been one the lookout for a 35mm waist level viewfinder for a while and recently a store in my area posted this:

https://fotohandeldelfshaven.nl/product/nikon-f3-body-outlet/

I know of the nikon f3s legendary status and id love to own one, however,
This product is sold as an OUTLET product. This means the camera has one or more issues.

In this case, the issue is described as "All shutter speeds above 1/60 fire at 1/2000, Could be an issue with the fast speed circuits" 
Now, I'm no repairman. I've done simple jobs on thrift store cameras. Some dissasembly to get the hang of it, unjamming shutters and lubing up a curtain gear or two. 

My question being: Is this F3 capable of being "fixed" by someone with little experience, i.e. , would this be a simple job like tightening some curtains or am I gonna have to poke around in the poor things circuitry?

[orsetto]

Could be operator error by the employee casually testing that F3. This model overrides the shutter speed setting and forces a default speed until the frame counter reads 1 or higher. With an open back, the counter won't move, and shutter will lock at one speed. With no film and door closed, this can also happen.

If that isn't the issue,  its likely to be electronic, not something you can casually adjust in the curtains. Either a speed circuit needs its pot adjusted or a replacement part, or the FRE resistance ring under the rewind knob (the ISO/exposure compensation mechanism) is worn/damaged. The circuit adjustments are under the front left covering, the FRE requires disassembly of the top plate. 

I'd probably pass on this F3 unless the price is a steal and you can return for refund if the problem proves to be anything other than store error in testing. Note also, this F3 is described by the dealer as missing its bottom motor drive cover: that means you cannot use it without fogging film until you obtain a replacement cover. This missing cap is a red flag: its possible this body was driven hard over the years by a motor drive, beating up the shutter. Nikon F series is tough but not indestructible or invincible.

Edited April 13, 2023 by orsetto

[Niels - NHSN]

That specific dealer is competent and probably wouldn't fall for the common operator error @orsetto describes above.

Since it is in the EU you should have the mandatory 14 days return window (if you also live in the EU), so you could chance it, risking only the return postage.

However that camera does not have the waist level finder you are looking for - it lacks a finder completely and by the time you source a waist level finder and the motor drive cover (which could be substituted with lightproof tape) you would be out at the same amount a healthy camera would cost.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Niels - NHSN

[orsetto]

For curiosity, I just now checked recent sales price history data for the Nikon F3 waist level finder. Apparently its in demand (for no reason I can imagine), so given the limited supply it alone now sells for close to the price of a used F3 body. And as with almost all interesting film gear today, most F3 WLFs  for sale are located in Japan. So the minimum one can expect to pay for a good working Nikon F3 body + WLF will be in the range of $450-$500 USD, unless you stumble across a cheaper domestic F3 that already has the WLF mounted on it.

If you don't need metering or AE, probablypasta, you might consider the original non-electronic Nikon F instead of F3. These are fairly common to find with WLF included, for less than half the cost of a similar F3. Alternatively, you can just use an F3 with no finder attached at all: the WLF puts a nice cosmetic cover over the top of the focus screen, but it would function just as well with a cardboard tube held against it. If you're not a stickler for authenticity, there are even vendors selling 3D printed plastic knockoffs of the F3 WLF for half the price of the genuine article.

Another option would be looking at other brands of camera that have no "curb appeal" to the hipsters now driving up prices on all the popular classic well-known camera models. There are loads of Exacta VXII bodies that include WLF, the WLF is also easy to find separately. The Exacta is not the most intuitive camera to operate, but its affordable and there are lots of nifty lens options. Other possibilities would be older '60s-era Miranda Sensorex bodies, which also have inexpensive WLFs available. Not the most reliable camera or greatest lens line, but you can still find good ones at decent prices.

Edited April 13, 2023 by orsetto

[Niels - NHSN]

1 hour ago, orsetto said:

Apparently its in demand (for no reason I can imagine)

Apparently there is a fad on social media. People film from above into the finder while they focus. Don't ask me why, but they pop up on a daily basis in my instagram feed.

[glen_h]

I am not sure about the F3, but for the F and F2, photomic finders often don't work.

The non-meter prism and waist-level finders never fail electronically, and so are in more demand.

[orsetto]

44 minutes ago, Niels - NHSN said:

Apparently there is a fad on social media. People film from above into the finder while they focus. Don't ask me why, but they pop up on a daily basis in my instagram feed.

Thanks for the explanation! That makes sense, in a "only on social media" sort of way. I couldn't imagine how enough people could possibly need a folding WLF for an F3 so bad that there was actually a thriving market for 3D printed knockoffs. It does have a logic to it, I suppose: if you're going to do such a thing, it might as well be with a camera model that retains its auto exposure features with a WLF. That pretty much limits you to a Nikon F3, F4 or F5. The F3 is white hot as a cult camera that many already bought for their film experiments, so adding a WLF to that would be a simple solution. The F4 isn't nearly as popular, and I believe is limited to spot metering without a prism finder attached, so not as much fun. F5 probably isn't even on their radar as an option.

In 35 years shooting with my Nikon F2 cameras, I think I've only ever needed the direct view feature once.  Debbie Harry performed a free outdoor concert in a park, and loads of people in front of me blocked a clear line of sight to her. I took off the meter prism, held the F2 above my head and framed by eyeballing the bare focus screen. It worked, but I discovered the F and F2 may not be the best camera choice for such improv use. The focus screen fell out on the third frame, thankfully onto grass but it narrowly missed asphalt. The spring tension holding the screen in place isn't always strong enough to defy gravity: you need a finder mounted to fully secure the screen. 

Anyone who wants to do this type of Instagram or TikTok should definitely look into an Exakta VXII camera. It has the brightest WLF I've ever used, with a large split image focus circle that doesn't black out easily.  The Exakta WLF consists of the entire optical block: screen, condenser glass and folding WLF lift out as one piece. Probably helps boost the brightness: should be easy to shoot cell phone video off of it.

[orsetto]

25 minutes ago, glen_h said:

I am not sure about the F3, but for the F and F2, photomic finders often don't work.

The non-meter prism and waist-level finders never fail electronically, and so are in more demand.

The F3 has no electronics in any finder, including the prism: meter is buried behind the reflex mirror. The uncommon F3AF has electronic contacts in its bespoke AF prism, but thats an arcane exception. The standard F3 was designed to answer pro criticism that the F and F2 lost metering when the popular speed finder was attached, body based meter in the F3 works with any finder attached.

WLF for F and F2 aren't in particular demand: easy to find and not outrageously expensive (the F2 version is more collectible, however). The meter prisms for F2 are compact, take modern batteries, often still work, and if they malfunction they can be repaired (at a price). Most F2 users want the F2 with meter finder, F2 with plain prism isn't especially desirable to people who actually shoot the things (as opposed to collectors or jewelry fanciers). In its day the F2 was heavily promoted by Nikon featuring a meter prism on it, thats its iconic "zebra" look. The stunted round humped plain prism actually looks kinda odd mounted on the F2: Nikon perhaps went a bit too far with their curvy updates on that piece.

The original F is a whole other ball of string. The meter prisms are huge, bulky, clumsy, tricky to adapt for modern batteries and typically dead on arrival. Today, both collectors and users of the F vastly prefer the plain meterless prism it debuted with. Its more organic to the camera and has the iconic appearance everyone now associates with the Nikon F. Unfortunately the plain prisms were plagued with primitive, terrible foam liners that decay and eat away the silver coating. The majority of plain F prisms are unpleasant to use now due to desilvering blobs and vertical shadow lines. The F2 plain prism is slightly less prone to this and can be adapted to the F, which has spiked renewed demand for the plain F2 prisms. I think I've seen more F bodies in the wild sporting F2 plain prisms than I've ever seen F2 bodies with plain prism.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by orsetto

[mike_halliwell]

A million lemmings can't be wrong.....

Film camera bodies are just that...

bodies.

🤣

Edited April 13, 2023 by mike_halliwell

[glen_h]

Seems that DW-2 and DA-2 are about $100.

I got my F2 for $124, which I think the finder works on.

The F for $79, the finder (meter) doesn't work.   But then again, only $79.

But I don't feel like buying a $100 finder for a $79 camera.

 

It shouldn't be so hard to resilver the prism if one wanted to do that.

Easier than many camera repairs that one might like to do.

[BeBu Lamar]

I wonder how do they know that all speeds above 1/60 fire at 1/2000? Did they have a shutter tester?

[orsetto]

8 minutes ago, BeBu Lamar said:

I wonder how do they know that all speeds above 1/60 fire at 1/2000? Did they have a shutter tester?

Their description might be layman's shorthand for "the shutter self-caps at all speeds above 1/60th." If you're looking thru the shutter at a bright lamp for a rough eyeball check of speeds, and every speed setting above 1/60th seems either totally black or gives only the barest glimmer of light coming thru, the shutter is capping like crazy or stuck on 1/2000. Or perhaps both: the F3 isn't known for dramatic shutter failures, but maybe the ones that do fail go all the way with it.

Two of my six F2 bodies cap/don't open at 1/2000, everything below that is fine. One of my F bodies shows this F3 symptom of all speeds above 1/60th barely opening. Of course the F and F2 are mechanical, the F3 in question may have an electronic issue.

[BeBu Lamar]

When the electronic shutter speed control on the F3 fails it shoot at 1/2000. The 1/2000 is kind mechanical one. 

[Henning Koepke]

The only mechanical shutter speed on the f3 is a 1/60. You can use it by pressing the Backup mechanical release lever (if you look down on the camera from behind) on the right front side to the right (no 6 in the instruction manual)

[c_watson1]

Simply put: look for another F3 that's functional. WLFs on 35mm cameras? Why?

[ben_hutcherson]

I have a WLF for an F and honestly I've never seen any use for it. 35mm focusing screens are tiny, and I find it awkward to use. These aren't medium format cameras where the smallest WLF is nearly twice as tall and twice as wide as a 35mm.

The 6x chimney finders are useful in specific circumstances-or even more specifically for parallax focusing on the appropriate focusing screen. I have those for both the F2 and F3, but they're also not something I really use outside the house.

 

[BeBu Lamar]

2 hours ago, Henning Koepke said:

The only mechanical shutter speed on the f3 is a 1/60. You can use it by pressing the Backup mechanical release lever (if you look down on the camera from behind) on the right front side to the right (no 6 in the instruction manual)

The 1/2000 can't be released without battery power but it timed mechanically and not depend on the electronic time delay. To adjust for this speed it involves adjusting the spring tension and not electronic. 

[ben_hutcherson]

11 minutes ago, BeBu Lamar said:

The 1/2000 can't be released without battery power but it timed mechanically and not depend on the electronic time delay. To adjust for this speed it involves adjusting the spring tension and not electronic. 

Back when the world closed in 2020, one of my put-off projects was an F3 I'd picked up that capped at high shutter speeds(I want to say over 1/500).

Using one of the old fashioned Calumet shutter speed testers with a CdS cell on the front, I spent a few days on and off adjusting curtain tension on that camera. IIRC, from the service manual, once 1/2000 is set all of the other speeds will fall in line. I was under the impression that they were electronically timed but don't recall the exact mechanism for how it was achieved.

Whatever the case, I finally got that one sorted out. It's mostly sat on the shelf but it was still all correct when I last checked it a few months ago.

[BeBu Lamar]

15 hours ago, ben_hutcherson said:

Back when the world closed in 2020, one of my put-off projects was an F3 I'd picked up that capped at high shutter speeds(I want to say over 1/500).

Using one of the old fashioned Calumet shutter speed testers with a CdS cell on the front, I spent a few days on and off adjusting curtain tension on that camera. IIRC, from the service manual, once 1/2000 is set all of the other speeds will fall in line. I was under the impression that they were electronically timed but don't recall the exact mechanism for how it was achieved.

Whatever the case, I finally got that one sorted out. It's mostly sat on the shelf but it was still all correct when I last checked it a few months ago.

Yes you adjust for this 1/2000 mechanically and then after that you adjust for the 1/60 via a potentiometer. This potentiometer is supposed to set the shutter speed of 1/60 5 stops slower than 1/2000. 

[conrad_hoffman]

I sold my two F3HPs a while back. Great cameras but I don't intend to shoot much 35mm in the future. They are known to have problems with the LCD screen and the aperture coupling mechanism, not sure what else. Any similar electronic camera can have worn out resistive tracks on controls. The coupling mechanism often gets sticky over time. I find the size difference between an F3 with a smallish AiS lens, and a modern dSLR, is astounding. I do sometimes miss it.

[probablypasta]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:25 PM, Niels - NHSN said:

That specific dealer is competent and probably wouldn't fall for the common operator error @orsetto describes above.

Since it is in the EU you should have the mandatory 14 days return window (if you also live in the EU), so you could chance it, risking only the return postage.

However that camera does not have the waist level finder you are looking for - it lacks a finder completely and by the time you source a waist level finder and the motor drive cover (which could be substituted with lightproof tape) you would be out at the same amount a healthy camera would cost.

thank you all for your reactions and comments! the good news being this store also sells a WLF for this camera (at 175 euros, mind you). I'll probably pass on this camera since moneys too tight to risk it! (I'm a student, so basically perpetually broke) If im a little richer someday and this cameras still in stock i might risk it and try making my own WLF cover!

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by probablypasta

[probablypasta]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:12 PM, orsetto said:

For curiosity, I just now checked recent sales price history data for the Nikon F3 waist level finder. Apparently its in demand (for no reason I can imagine), so given the limited supply it alone now sells for close to the price of a used F3 body. And as with almost all interesting film gear today, most F3 WLFs  for sale are located in Japan. So the minimum one can expect to pay for a good working Nikon F3 body + WLF will be in the range of $450-$500 USD, unless you stumble across a cheaper domestic F3 that already has the WLF mounted on it.

If you don't need metering or AE, probablypasta, you might consider the original non-electronic Nikon F instead of F3. These are fairly common to find with WLF included, for less than half the cost of a similar F3. Alternatively, you can just use an F3 with no finder attached at all: the WLF puts a nice cosmetic cover over the top of the focus screen, but it would function just as well with a cardboard tube held against it. If you're not a stickler for authenticity, there are even vendors selling 3D printed plastic knockoffs of the F3 WLF for half the price of the genuine article.

Another option would be looking at other brands of camera that have no "curb appeal" to the hipsters now driving up prices on all the popular classic well-known camera models. There are loads of Exacta VXII bodies that include WLF, the WLF is also easy to find separately. The Exacta is not the most intuitive camera to operate, but its affordable and there are lots of nifty lens options. Other possibilities would be older '60s-era Miranda Sensorex bodies, which also have inexpensive WLFs available. Not the most reliable camera or greatest lens line, but you can still find good ones at decent prices.

Thank you! I'll look into it! And I do agree, film camera prices are being hiked up due to the renewed interest in them. I have been curious about what other WLF cameras are out there so your comment helps a ton! 

[probablypasta]

On 4/14/2023 at 9:49 PM, c_watson1 said:

Simply put: look for another F3 that's functional. WLFs on 35mm cameras? Why?

I mainly look for semi-broken bodies or ones that are in bad shape because I quite like fixing up cameras! I'm not that good at it (yet!) so I mainly limit myself to bargain bin thrift store cameras. As for why a WLF on a 35mm: I just think theyre neat! I have a lubitel 2 and through that i learned that  theres just something so magical about WLF's, so i'd love to have one in 35mm

[ben_hutcherson]

3 hours ago, probablypasta said:

I mainly look for semi-broken bodies or ones that are in bad shape because I quite like fixing up cameras! I'm not that good at it (yet!) so I mainly limit myself to bargain bin thrift store cameras. As for why a WLF on a 35mm: I just think theyre neat! I have a lubitel 2 and through that i learned that  theres just something so magical about WLF's, so i'd love to have one in 35mm

 

I might suggest that the F3 is not necessarily the best choice if you're after a camera to fix up.

They exist in the same 1980s pr-one-foot-in-the-past-one-foot-in-the-present world as the Canon New F-1, and as such are actually a lot of electronics stuck on top of a mechanical camera. They are great cameras, but if you don't have experience troubleshooting electronics you might find that your efforts are futile. There is some limited mechanical work that can be done, but dead electronics essentially mean a dead camera.

The other side of that is that the electronics are usually reliable, but again if they go they likely are gone.

If you want to get an idea of what a waist level is like on 35mm, I'd suggest a Nikon F2. You can sort of get the experience by just removing the prism and looking down at the focusing screen(all single digit Nikon film cameras save for the F6 have removable prisms) although to do it properly you do need one of the now apparently quite expensive WLF hoods. Just be careful on these cameras as the focusing screen is-relatively-easy to drop out if you turn the camera upside down without a finder installed. When I was actively buying then, usable F2 Photomics could be had for a little over $100 and an F2A was usually under $200.

[conrad_hoffman]

For a great WLF and image quality that will blow away the F3- pretty much any decent TLR!