Scanning help for 3.75 x 5.75 (old) film negatives, are not laying flat on the scanner bed

[Modette21]

My 3.75 x 5.75 negatives are curling or not laying perfectly flat for scanning. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get these really old negatives to lay flat on my Epson Perfection V700 scanner? Or DIY solutions that could help me? It would be nice to not have to use tape because I have about 300+ negatives to scan.  However, if your suggestion is to use tape, what kind of tape will work for this situation? Thanks in advance!

[glen_h]

I think you could put a sheet of glass over the negative. 

That is how I make contact prints under an enlarger.

 

Yes, many scanners don't hold negatives down the same way they hold opaque materials flat.

[Niels - NHSN]

Second the glass suggestion. That works in the darkroom. If you run into newton ring problems, you may consider buying the appropriate glass that eliminates that.

[glen_h]

I suspect that the diffuse light source reduces the Newton ring problem,

but I don't even remember having it using an enlarger as the light source.

[rodeo_joe1]

I once came across some 6"x6" film-carriers fitted with multi-coated (pale green-looking) anti-reflection glass. This would automatically eliminate the possibility of Newton's rings, and I'm not sure why AR coating isn't used as a matter of course in enlargers and for scanner platens. 

Unfortunately the AR film carriers I stumbled across didn't have any maker's identification, but I still have the glass inserts stowed away - somewhere.

Standard anti-Newton glass that's surface etched is a crude solution by comparison.

But don't Epson scanners have the focus fixed slightly above the platen glass? So putting the film directly on the platen wouldn't give optimum focus anyway. Maybe a custom-cut (or 3D printed) spacer mask would be needed, as well as a glass pressure plate? 

Or for 300+ negatives it might be worth machining a metal frame with weight enough to pin the film flat. Maybe customising an old enlarger negative carrier insert? 

Edited January 9, 2023 by rodeo_joe1

[AlanKlein]

There's a film area guide that holds film larger than 4x5.  Check out the instructions in the manual. 

https://epson.com/Support/Scanners/Perfection-Series/Epson-Perfection-V700-Photo/s/SPT_B11B178011#manuals

[glen_h]

19 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

 

 

(snip)

But don't Epson scanners have the focus fixed slightly above the platen glass? So putting the film directly on the platen wouldn't give optimum focus anyway. Maybe a custom-cut (or 3D printed) spacer mask would be needed, as well as a glass pressure plate? 

(snip)

 

As well as I remember it, some have two sensors.

One is full width, focus on the top of the glass, meant for opaque scanning.

The other, not full width, and so the sense pixels over a smaller width, for transparency scanning,

and focus slightly above.  

 

It seems that isn't quite right.  You can use the full width mode with transparencies,

and focus on the glass surface.

 

https://elektrotanya.com/epson_perfection_v700_photo_sm.pdf/download.html

 

[rodeo_joe1]

None of that addresses the problem of keeping the film flat though. 

So it's back to methods used in traditional film enlargers -

1. A glass pressure plate with the risk of Newton's rings and extra dust-catching surfaces, or

2. A glassless frame that pins the film flat by gripping its edges. Such a frame would need to be specially fabricated for an odd-sized film, but might be improvised with thick card or a foam-rubber surround, using the weight of the scanner lid to press it down on the film. 

[glen_h]

Oh, also from the manual, it is different lenses with the same sensor, not different sensors.

Many scanners use a fixed position sensor, and mirrors moving at two speeds, to keep the object to lens distance constant.

It seems that the V scanners put the sensor on the moving carriage, with four mirrors.

Focus is adjusted with a variable number of spacers for the system of rods that support the scanning carriage.

The manual does not say how to adjust the focus, except to keep the spacers in the same positions.

[glen_h]

25 minutes ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

None of that addresses the problem of keeping the film flat though. 

So it's back to methods used in traditional film enlargers -

1. A glass pressure plate with the risk of Newton's rings and extra dust-catching surfaces, or

2. A glassless frame that pins the film flat by gripping its edges. Such a frame would need to be specially fabricated for an odd-sized film, but might be improvised with thick card or a foam-rubber surround, using the weight of the scanner lid to press it down on the film. 

 

Even 35mm film in a slide mount doesn't stay flat, but usually close enough to project or scan.

Kodak makes projector lenses designed for the curved field of most slides.

For the V700, the 4800dpi lens is supposed to focus on the glass surface, and should be plenty for big film.

The other one is 6400dpi (so says Epson), presumably meant for 35mm slides in mounts, where the film

is above the glass. 

 

If you tape on edge of a piece of glass to the scanner edge, for a tape hinge,

you can use that to quickly insert the film, and then fold down the glass.

 

Personally, I believe in scanning 35mm film with scanners that cover only the width of the film.

 

The manual does mention the 2GB limit for JPEG files, which you can exceed at the highest

resolution for large enough source, such as 8x10in.

[rodeo_joe1]

2 minutes ago, glen_h said:

Even 35mm film in a slide mount doesn't stay flat, but usually close enough to project or scan.

A sloppy plastic slide-mount holding a single cut frame of 35mm film has no chance of pinching the film flat. Whereas a well-designed metal negative carrier clamped in an enlarger, carrying a 6 frame strip of film, can easily give corner-to-corner grain-sharp prints, even at moderately wide lens apertures. 

Unfortunately, that attention to precision and materials was never carried forward to consumer scanners. Which is why, IMO and experience, the quickest and best digitising method available today is to use a high-resolution digital camera to copy film. But it still needs a well-made film holder - and that's not something you can buy off-the-shelf for an odd-sized film like the OP's. 

[AlanKlein]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:37 AM, AlanKlein said:

There's a film area guide that holds film larger than 4x5.  Check out the instructions in the manual. 

https://epson.com/Support/Scanners/Perfection-Series/Epson-Perfection-V700-Photo/s/SPT_B11B178011#manuals

Did you check this out?

[Ed_Ingold]

Make a mask out of black photo cardboard (~ 1 mm thick). Place the film directly on the glass, cupped/curved side down. Cover the film with non-reflective or anti-Newton glass, treated side down. A flatbed scanner has a DOF of about 2 mm, with the focal point at the glass surface, unless otherwise specified.

[kmac]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:37 AM, AlanKlein said:

There's a film area guide that holds film larger than 4x5.  Check out the instructions in the manual. 

https://epson.com/Support/Scanners/Perfection-Series/Epson-Perfection-V700-Photo/s/SPT_B11B178011#manuals

The film area guide doesn't have a glass to hold the film flat. It's just a guide frame to place 8x10 material in it's correct position on the platen so that it's within the travel of the scanning unit.

What I sometimes use is anti reflection picture frame glass on top of the negs to hold them flat, but the anti reflection coating on the glass must be without patterns, some have pattern lines that will show up in the scans. It's necessary to go through a bunch of picture frame glasses, holding them up to the light till one without a pattern is found, then use that one to eliminate Newton Rings.

[kmac]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:01 AM, Modette21 said:

However, if your suggestion is to use tape, what kind of tape will work for this situation?

There's various "No Residue" tapes on the auction site. Residue is detrimental because time is spent cleaning it off

A good one, and dare I say it, is the tape on tobacco pouches, if you can collect the tapes. They are non residue and have one end that's non stick, for easy lifting off.

Tape is fiddly though, it's best avoided if you can do so, however, there could be occasions where, if you are using glass to hold the negs down and the glass won't completely flatten the negs, then tape can be used on the edges of the glass.

[AlanKlein]

Here's some interesting stuff I found on ANR glass and scanning.  You could also check with them to see what their recommendation are for your size film. Good luck.

http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/usinginsert.html#_Special_Use_Notes

[john_shriver]

I use the Better Scanning Variable Height Mounting station for all the oddball film sizes I scan on my Epson V750. I've made masks for 120 (6x9), 127 (square and full-frame), 116, 122, 4x5, and 5x7. I have collected many vintage negatives of streetcars that I've scanned this way. I use Scotch Magic Tape to hold the film on the glass, never leaves a residue I can see.

Dialed in, I can resolve the film grain on Verichrome Pan.