ralf_j. Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Wanted to start a discussion and get folks take on what's happened to the film market. As most of us in this forum use film, I thought it would be appropriate. Prices have skyrocketed - and keep on going up - a quick look at B&H pricing: - A roll of 120 BW film starts at USD5.99 and that is for the Foma variants which for me are kind of hit and miss / Bergger is there too and I do like that film but it is out of stock - A roll of consumer grade Kodak 400 24 exp, starts at USD8.99 and not available. (Bought a 3 pack of Kodak 400 from Walgreens at 18.99$ 3 months ago, now they are at 27.99$ if you find them) - Pro grade rolls are in mid teens - 100 foot Bulk rolls have gone up tremendously and this is still the more economical way to go - the C41/E6 bulk rolls have disappeared altogether. Personally - I have always been buying film if there was a short date sale or otherwise, so do have some quantities in the freezer. Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability. The aggressive push for less pollution to the environment potentially adds to this problem as well ( I do recall a story that when velvia 50 got discontinued, one of the reasons was that a chemical required in its production was not "environmentally friendly") What do you think the future of the film is? Are the prices going to go down once things normalize - if they ever will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m42dave Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) As the majority of film shooters nowadays are hobbyists and not professionals, I suppose the price increases will pinch students and budget shooters, but probably won't make a big difference for photogs who are more comfortably well off. After all, people are willing to spend considerable amounts on digital camera systems. I've always defrayed the cost of film with eBay/Amazon points and gift cards, selling a bit of gear, etc. and given the modest amount of film I use, can absorb some price increase; I spend very little on other hobbies anyway. A high school teacher of mine who was a photo enthusiast used to recycle aluminum cans and put the earnings he made every year towards film and processing. Dwayne's Photo lab in Kansas seems to be doing well, and now has a staff of over 70. It was taken over by the founder's grandsons, who describe business as "booming" with "more film than they know what do do with." Parsons business expanding after being reopened by late owner’s family | KSNF/KODE - FourStatesHomepage.com Edited March 10, 2022 by m42dave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_barber4 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I don't know, to be honest. More people are shooting film than anyone has in years, including a younger generation that did not grow up with film, which seems to have the money to chase both equipment and film itself. I don't want to get into a discussion about the resurgence in film, as I think it is a mixed blessing. But there is no doubt more people are shooting film than at anytime since the mid 2000s. Is it a fad? Who knows. But the gear and film getting scooped up at ridiculous prices, the amount of people talking about "them tones" and "that grain" on the social media, and the amount of people deliberately seeking out expired/older film for aesthetic reasons shows that there is undeniable interest in it right now, Hence the wide amount of brands and types of film available. I remember when we were all scared film was going to go away. Now I'm just scared I can't afford any of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCL Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Thank goodness I bought several bulk rolls when they were much cheaper. Chemicals, however, are going up too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels - NHSN Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I think the filmproducers are still struggling to make it a healthy long term business. As long as there is some diversity in the market I trust it will stabilize at some point. 1 Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDMvW Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 After I went digital in 2004 (along with much of the rest of the world), I continued to shoot a lot of film because I love my old film cameras so much. Now, unless I shoot conventional developing B&W, I just don't have facilities for quality C41 processing at home and most of my film work has to go through several mailing cycles before I get the film back to do good scans. It's a lot more trouble and I just don't have a s much energy as I used to. I think some here are right when they see film manufacture continuing as a kind of 'craft' process, but it will be like making Mennonite bonnets and pants - small and direct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I think that the higher prices are probably here to stay. The massive demand for film in the 1990's is gone and won't come back. One thing to keep in mind is the way we see movies in theaters--25 years ago each print in the multiplex involved 1 - 2 miles of film that either Kodak or Fuji produced on incredibly efficient production lines. Theater projection is almost totally digital now and that won't change, so the demand for thousands of miles of release prints won't be coming back. So production of film will necessarily be done on a smaller, less efficient scale. And with the closing of more small labs more people will come to the same conclusion as JDM (above) that especially for color that the convenience of digital outweighs the fun and look of film. For the first time in 50 years I have been shooting some outdated Tri-X purchased from a fellow P-netter with good results. When I shot film professionally I never would have done that as I was passing film costs on to clients and wanted to be sure that everything I shot would come out well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_watson1 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 "Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability." With respect, I'm curious how long and how closely you've been watching film prices. "Current events" aren't the issue. Both Fujifilm and Kodak have steadily jacked prices and cut selection for at least the past 5-6 years, dramatically so in the past 2-3 years. Film is a residual market. Magical thinking aside, demand for film is miniscule now. Anyone announcing a "film revival" has to explain why there's been no resurgence of labs. Dwayne's plainly enjoys a "last man standing" position. Surviving labs in Toronto do well because of the mass extinction small of pro labs and cheap Noritsu/Fuji minilab C-41 processing. Used gear prices? Whatever the market will bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary green Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 I switched to Earl Grey 100 b&w film in 120 rolls about 2 months ago. It's a shade under $6 per roll when sold in a 3-pack at B&H. At first I thought it was simply repackaged Fomapan/Arista but have since changed my opinion. It seems to have less defects in the emulsion and dries with noticeably less curl than Fomapan. I've been very pleased with the negatives developed in HC-110. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralf_j. Posted March 11, 2022 Author Share Posted March 11, 2022 "Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability." With respect, I'm curious how long and how closely you've been watching film prices. "Current events" aren't the issue. Both Fujifilm and Kodak have steadily jacked prices and cut selection for at least the past 5-6 years, dramatically so in the past 2-3 years. Film is a residual market. Magical thinking aside, demand for film is miniscule now. Anyone announcing a "film revival" has to explain why there's been no resurgence of labs. Dwayne's plainly enjoys a "last man standing" position. Surviving labs in Toronto do well because of the mass extinction small of pro labs and cheap Noritsu/Fuji minilab C-41 processing. Used gear prices? Whatever the market will bear. I have been watching the film market for quite some time (30 years now) and I am pretty certain the current events have influence on film prices. I purchased a bunch of 24 exp rolls at Unique Photo in NJ for $3.89 last year - it is 20+ for $8.25 now. Yes I understand pricing is a function of demand and availability but this kind of jump is just not normal, and it is not because the demand has decreased so drastically within a year. Film industry has had the same shortage of labor and materials just like everyone else, and that is what I am being told by dealers at Adorama or Unique. I agree, that demand is a fraction of what it used to be in the late 90s early 2000 with digital gaining prominence, but this huge price jump is a bit more complex than the decrease in demand. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q.g._de_bakker Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 (edited) "Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability." With respect, I'm curious how long and how closely you've been watching film prices. "Current events" aren't the issue. Both Fujifilm and Kodak have steadily jacked prices and cut selection for at least the past 5-6 years, dramatically so in the past 2-3 years. Film is a residual market. Magical thinking aside, demand for film is miniscule now. Anyone announcing a "film revival" has to explain why there's been no resurgence of labs. Dwayne's plainly enjoys a "last man standing" position. Surviving labs in Toronto do well because of the mass extinction small of pro labs and cheap Noritsu/Fuji minilab C-41 processing. Used gear prices? Whatever the market will bear. Re explanation. It has been explained to you before. You are confusing increasing sales with being on or approaching levels that would make a "resurgence of labs" something we should expect. There is indeed a revival. The amount of money made by manufacturing and selling film has increased and is still going up. Sales figures however are nowhere near what they once were. Your chosen measure is not able to deny or confirm the thing you suppose it is a measure for. It's like denying tectonic movement because you, standing on the beach, can't see another continent moving away from you at a discernible speed. Edited March 11, 2022 by q.g._de_bakker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 Polluter pays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_watson1 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 (edited) "There is indeed a revival. The amount of money made by manufacturing and selling film has increased and is still going up." Seriously? So back this up with data. Make an effort this time instead of the usual gaslighting. Edited March 11, 2022 by c_watson|1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_watson1 Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 I have been watching the film market for quite some time (30 years now) and I am pretty certain the current events have influence on film prices. I purchased a bunch of 24 exp rolls at Unique Photo in NJ for $3.89 last year - it is 20+ for $8.25 now. Yes I understand pricing is a function of demand and availability but this kind of jump is just not normal, and it is not because the demand has decreased so drastically within a year. Film industry has had the same shortage of labor and materials just like everyone else, and that is what I am being told by dealers at Adorama or Unique. I agree, that demand is a fraction of what it used to be in the late 90s early 2000 with digital gaining prominence, but this huge price jump is a bit more complex than the decrease in demand. Thanks. Coincidence or correlation? Great if you can scrounge short-dated/expired/off-brand/ film but fresh, branded film prices have been on a steady rise for the last 3-5 years with Kodak and Fuji announcing annual price hikes. That's why I question how closely you've tracked prices since whatever you consider "current events"(the pandemic?)have not dramatically influenced prices in the short term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_ante Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 One should not expect film to be exempted from current inflation, which is only going to get worse for a long time before it gets better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bryant Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 So long as there is enough demand to keep film in production, I can live with the price. In the 1970s and 1980s inflation was a problem. I remember when the Hunts cornered the silver market and drove up the price of film and paper. I also remember the gas crisis in the 1970s. I may not like it but it happens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDMvW Posted March 11, 2022 Share Posted March 11, 2022 Just for fun, you can do your own following in Freestyle ads from 1950 to 1993. "Keep your eyes on the prize" After 2004 the world went digital, I know I did. After that you can download a current Freestyle catalog from their website (Home | Freestyle Photo & Imaging). Freestyle-1950-11-PP Freestyle-1957-09-PP Freestyle-1971-05-PP Freestyle-1993-08-PP Anyway, a few of you might enjoy a little time travel .;) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralf_j. Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 Just for fun, you can do your own following in Freestyle ads from 1950 to 1993. "Keep your eyes on the prize" After 2004 the world went digital, I know I did. After that you can download a current Freestyle catalog from their website (Home | Freestyle Photo & Imaging). Freestyle-1950-11-PP [ATTACH=full]1420077[/ATTACH] Freestyle-1957-09-PP [ATTACH=full]1420078[/ATTACH] Freestyle-1971-05-PP [ATTACH=full]1420079[/ATTACH] Freestyle-1993-08-PP [ATTACH=full]1420080[/ATTACH] Anyway, a few of you might enjoy a little time travel .;) Wow, I am surprised you had these, I have been their customer only for the past 15 years or so. Prior to that my go to was J and C photo which disappeared after the owner got in some sort of health and legal trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_pratt Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 I have decided just to press the shutter less. I print maybe 3 or 4 pictures from any given roll meaning most of what I shoot is dross, and I knew it was dross before I pressed the shutter. Be more discerning. Maybe some of you have better hit rates. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_rogers Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Wanted to start a discussion and get folks take on what's happened to the film market. As most of us in this forum use film, I thought it would be appropriate. Prices have skyrocketed - and keep on going up - a quick look at B&H pricing: - A roll of 120 BW film starts at USD5.99 and that is for the Foma variants which for me are kind of hit and miss / Bergger is there too and I do like that film but it is out of stock - A roll of consumer grade Kodak 400 24 exp, starts at USD8.99 and not available. (Bought a 3 pack of Kodak 400 from Walgreens at 18.99$ 3 months ago, now they are at 27.99$ if you find them) - Pro grade rolls are in mid teens - 100 foot Bulk rolls have gone up tremendously and this is still the more economical way to go - the C41/E6 bulk rolls have disappeared altogether. Personally - I have always been buying film if there was a short date sale or otherwise, so do have some quantities in the freezer. Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability. The aggressive push for less pollution to the environment potentially adds to this problem as well ( I do recall a story that when velvia 50 got discontinued, one of the reasons was that a chemical required in its production was not "environmentally friendly") What do you think the future of the film is? Are the prices going to go down once things normalize - if they ever will? "Velvia 50" (RVP 50) is a current film type available fresh from Fuji. You are conflating it with "Velvia" (RVP) which was discontinued circa 2005. I still have a few rolls of the latter deep frozen. Gorgeous film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_rogers Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 A "There is indeed a revival. The amount of money made by manufacturing and selling film has increased and is still going up." Seriously? So back this up with data. Make an effort this time instead of the usual gaslighting. After you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_rogers Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 "Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability." With respect, I'm curious how long and how closely you've been watching film prices. "Current events" aren't the issue. Both Fujifilm and Kodak have steadily jacked prices and cut selection for at least the past 5-6 years, dramatically so in the past 2-3 years. Film is a residual market. Magical thinking aside, demand for film is miniscule now. Anyone announcing a "film revival" has to explain why there's been no resurgence of labs. Dwayne's plainly enjoys a "last man standing" position. Surviving labs in Toronto do well because of the mass extinction small of pro labs and cheap Noritsu/Fuji minilab C-41 processing. Used gear prices? Whatever the market will bear. Sources??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Velvia 100, not Velvia 50, was discontinued due to the chemicals in it. Velvia 50 is still being produced at least for another year or two. I don't know why Fuji is discontinuing it. But I'm very disappointed as I love it. I now shoot 4x5 which is only available in Velvia 50 directly from Japan which is expensive. Rising gas prices also make photography more expensive when you have to drive to get the shot. I expect film to continue to go up as inflation reduces the value of currency causing rising prices for everything. Hopefully with gas, more production will again lower prices at some point. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 "Obviously current events have a lot to do with price and availability." With respect, I'm curious how long and how closely you've been watching film prices. "Current events" aren't the issue. Both Fujifilm and Kodak have steadily jacked prices and cut selection for at least the past 5-6 years, dramatically so in the past 2-3 years. Film is a residual market. Magical thinking aside, demand for film is miniscule now. Anyone announcing a "film revival" has to explain why there's been no resurgence of labs. Dwayne's plainly enjoys a "last man standing" position. Surviving labs in Toronto do well because of the mass extinction small of pro labs and cheap Noritsu/Fuji minilab C-41 processing. Used gear prices? Whatever the market will bear. While it's true that demand is "minuscule" compared to years ago, there are fewer labs left. Back in the day, there was a one-hour lab on every corner developing film and providing prints. Supply and demand work out the prices as with any other product. Inflation is the other bugaboo, especially today, raising the prices on everything, especially chemicals. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 One should not expect film to be exempted from current inflation, which is only going to get worse for a long time before it gets better. My barber prices went up 33% after Covid than before. So now I have to decide between getting a haircut or shooting film. :eek: Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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