glen_h Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Uhm, lol, as a Gen X's, I can't entirely agree that it wouldn't be the uneducated millennial's fault. Now, I know that you probably want to stay hip and young when touting all these wondrous Millenials. But luckily, that's not yet any of my concern. I am not so sure what this means, but many of us grew up when we could take things apart to learn about how they work. That mostly doesn't include cameras, but working on electronic equipment, and other household appliances was a good introduction for future engineers. But now, it is not so easy to take things apart, and so not easy to learn how they work. As for the subject of this thread, there are a few differences between phone cameras and DSLRs. One is the small sensor, which has specific limitations that I won't discuss. Besides those, though, a DSLR allows (if one wants to use it) manual focus. This can help in those situations that confuse AF, and also helps users learn about focus. DSLRs also, (again, if one wants to use it) shutter priority, aperture priority, and full manual exposure mode. These are useful in some situations that fool program mode, and also to help photographers learn about exposure. I am not sure that the design of phone cameras prohibits manual focus modes or manual exposure modes, but at least they don't make it easy. Most studio photographers use a variety of lights and reflectors to get the right lighting conditions, including flash. Again, I don't know that phone cameras disallow connections to external flash units, but also don't make it easy. With the ability to manually focus, set exposure, and couple to flash units, I suspect that phone cameras could be just fine in a studio setting. -- glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomspielman Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Flip side of that - If I were standing alongside any of the major bike races with either of my road bikes, and a high level participant my size had his bike fail, he could continue on mine and not be handicapped. Imagine hiring an individual to do some work on your house and have him arrive equipped with just a multi tool on his belt. Best tools always the best choice - the skills are up to the user. Unless the high level racer happened to have very similar proportions as you he would indeed be handicapped in a race against other high level racers. ;) But he wouldn't matter in a race against anyone who was not an elite racer. The very best bikes are only going to make a very slight difference compared to an average bike. But in a bike race being a tiny fraction of a second slower can mean the difference between hanging on to the lead group or falling back. So if we had some contest pitting one pro photographer against another, and compare their photos pixel by pixel, then yes, they should use the best camera available. But that's probably not the case with this kind of photography. Who is the audience? What is the target platform? Print? Mobile Device? If the photo is intended to be consumed on a smart phone, how many people would really know the difference between a pic taken in a well lit location on an iPhone vs one taken with a DSLR? Or maybe the desired look is typical of what a smart phone produces. As for construction workers, I know many that don't buy the latest and greatest tools as they become available. Many have tools that are decades old. They are skilled with them and that's all that matters. If I hire an electrician I don't go poking through his tools to see if he's a genuine electrician or not. More than likely they were recommended by someone I trust. Now, I recognize that there are plenty of applications that a smart phone camera is poorly suited for. It's the reason I have real cameras. But for some things they work just fine. Edited February 5, 2020 by tomspielman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomspielman Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I am not so sure what this means, but many of us grew up when we could take things apart to learn about how they work. That mostly doesn't include cameras, but working on electronic equipment, and other household appliances was a good introduction for future engineers. But now, it is not so easy to take things apart, and so not easy to learn how they work. As for the subject of this thread, there are a few differences between phone cameras and DSLRs. One is the small sensor, which has specific limitations that I won't discuss. Besides those, though, a DSLR allows (if one wants to use it) manual focus. This can help in those situations that confuse AF, and also helps users learn about focus. DSLRs also, (again, if one wants to use it) shutter priority, aperture priority, and full manual exposure mode. These are useful in some situations that fool program mode, and also to help photographers learn about exposure. I am not sure that the design of phone cameras prohibits manual focus modes or manual exposure modes, but at least they don't make it easy. Most studio photographers use a variety of lights and reflectors to get the right lighting conditions, including flash. Again, I don't know that phone cameras disallow connections to external flash units, but also don't make it easy. With the ability to manually focus, set exposure, and couple to flash units, I suspect that phone cameras could be just fine in a studio setting. I'm only familiar with iPhones so I'm not sure what other phones offer. All you need for to allow for manual focus and exposure settings is to download an app that will let you access those. The iPhone at least is limited in that sense since the cameras have fixed apertures. So you can only set shutter speed and ISO. But with the camera app I have it's not difficult. There are external wireless flash options for the iPhone that work but I would describe them as kludges. Apple last year did release official specs and protocols for creating those kinds of devices so I think better solutions will be coming soon. It's also worth mentioning that iPhones and other smartphones now often feature multiple cameras that work together to produce a single image. This is not something you get with a DSLR and in the right hands with the right software could provide some interesting results that would be more difficult to achieve with a "real" camera. This is highly dependent on software to make it all work and I think that's an area where smartphone manufacturers often excel over traditional camera makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 I've been a forum member for about 20 years on a software and website developer forum with lots of experienced professionals (some of them appearing on international news, that big). Photography is how I started, then I expanded and diversified my experience on diff directions. The thing is... lots of technical details have been discussed there for years (along with other diff forums), but there is a time when older forum members discuss outside the technical aspect. Then it's not about sensors, coding, language, or efficiency up to milliseconds: it's just business and what business are all about, it means understanding the big or small factors that affect your clients and your client's decisions. SOMETIMES client discussions behave like this thread, talking about tech specs, sensors, etc and you might be right about your sensor or camera just as an older professional is right about code selection and efficiency. BUT... the client want's results + quality + service, etc. That's easy, in fact that obvious and evident. But not everyone knows or can deal with what in English I believe is called "perceived X" at least that the term used in psychology for let's say perceived threat (you might be in danger OR NOT but your brain sense the moment as a threat). So... sometimes professionals forget about this, you can do whatever the hell you want to and be right about it but... if you fail on the client perception you are fried, and then someone with a GoPro can take your client away just because THEY have the perception and understanding GoPro takes better video compared to some old/new, big and bulky camera whose name is XB-whatever-325. Many professionals failed in this when Wordpress "took over" on website building, yet many clients considered WP to be the best option and would reject any proposal not including it. That's... business. And NOT the technical part of business. It's not even about "sales", it's about understanding a weird part of clients decision. Again: the client is not always right, and no matter your portfolio, you can't always choose your clients, in fact the clients choose you. My years of experience on diff field teach me to diversify, yes, to stay specialized but also being able to diversify in order to choose flexible solutions. I have worked with digital gear being able to post pro and share and publish in no time making the client happy while I was happy too (even if that wasn't my perfect personal choice for the job) but in some way "it was the perfect choice". At some point it's like expecting clients to choose you and your horse for transportation because the low polluting footprint over a car. Oh yes you will get clients, but only the ones wanting to be transported on a horse. The thing is selling quality transportation, and if you can offer a car and a horse, you can make many clients happy. I fully understand how some people say things like "X blah blah instead of a freaking toy", I get it, but after many lessons learned in BUSINESS, they are missing a big part of the market, I know I did in the past, learned my lesson. It's been a fun thread, I know it will bring some more comments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen_h Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Well, studio photography is more art than science, but there is still enough science in it. I suspect that if you connect your phone to studio flash units, with the usual mounting and umbrellas for proper diffusion of light, then most won't notice that it is a phone. And if they do, probably won't be bothered by it. It is often the lighting more than the camera that makes studio photography different. The horse analogy reminds me that, while most are now digital, there are some studios doing film photography for the appropriate old look, as there are also those with horse drawn carriages for city transportation. 1 -- glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 Well, studio photography is more art than science, but there is still enough science in it. I suspect that if you connect your phone to studio flash units, with the usual mounting and umbrellas for proper diffusion of light, then most won't notice that it is a phone. And if they do, probably won't be bothered by it. It is often the lighting more than the camera that makes studio photography different. The horse analogy reminds me that, while most are now digital, there are some studios doing film photography for the appropriate old look, as there are also those with horse drawn carriages for city transportation. You are hitting the nail. There are amazing productions done on smartphones, mid and high end. Even on old not-the-best quality digital cameras but pro lenses, lights, etc not to mention professionals knowing how to do it. Some vids on what's behind the lens or what's in front of the camera are featured on Youtube with amazing real life results. In fact some point out those commercials are confusing because it is indeed a phone but with a whole pro crew and gear. About the transportation: exactly. There will be times where a client will leave the horse behind, others where people will choose the horse. However talking about business I don't think it's wise to say "I will keep using my old horse on this old town", unless it's about someone living on a touristic place with ancient buildings, or colonial style architecture (or pure tourism). My curiosity is pure in regard on clients, because US as photographers ARE NOT CLIENTS and so, anyone on a business SHOULD BE (not to say MUST BE) checking what the clients think, say and want. Other than that some responses come from the usual (useless) immature pride that only sells to students who believe everything the teacher says. Again, I reman curious, specially on anecdotes, the why and how it's been beaten to death. I will try to expose this question to clients (on forums) to see what I can find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 Cameras VS Smartphones, beyond the tech specs: the client perception. It's business. I will be brief, it's a long story and I didn't relate it to the thread until today, I will omit details to focus on what's related to the thread: a huge company in my country (actually a transnational) wanted to do X project and I was one of the invited due to my related portfolio. Their advertising agency was dealing with the hiring. Sadly the main company insisted on working with instagramers who mostly use Smartphones. And so they engaged on negotiations with them and me (while I'm on Instagram I'm not an "instagramer". The negotiating took weeks, then months until I just shoot my warning: tell me what you want and your budget, I will not be wasting time on sending quote after quote. The response was interesting: the creative director said he was already tired of the project because the instagramers were mostly very young folks asking for thousands of dollars for small sets of pictures (incomplete), and not a single one could offer the entire solution for the 25 requested pictures (I could solve that, in fact already had 50% of the task done in my catalog). The thing is, the person in charge at the company was fixated with instagrammers. At the end of the year while having a huge budget, the company refused to pay that absurd amount of money to several of them and abandoned the project. Today I connected the dots and related to this thread. Sometimes people want a nice picture BUT... shot with specific gear that you don't have. Go tell them about your classic old SLR camera. It's the same we experienced on the software and website realm, where suddenly you were creating huge projects but some clients wants an specific solution that you could o in a matter of 6 months from zero, but they wanted it on Wordpress, specifically, despite the warnings on security, stability on plugins, etc. That's the business side of business... not the tech side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samstevens Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 It sounds like “instagrammers with smartphones” were and, perhaps, are going to be a force in your life. Best I can do is recommend the 1952 MGM musical Singin’ in the Rain, about talkies taking over the silent film era. It may not help your business, but at least you’ll have a relaxing evening and get to see three delightful Hollywood stars dance on the ceiling. Anyway, it’s a reminder that time marches on while history keeps repeating itself. Sometimes, if you can’t beat ‘em you join ‘em and sometimes you make a last stand. "You talkin' to me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 time marches on while history keeps repeating itself ... if that isn't a quote from someone famous, it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samstevens Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 ... if that isn't a quote from someone famous, it should be. No. Just me. I'm working on becoming famous ... one pixel at a time! :) 1 "You talkin' to me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 It sounds like “instagrammers with smartphones” were and, perhaps, are going to be a force in your life. Best I can do is recommend the 1952 MGM musical Singin’ in the Rain, about talkies taking over the silent film era. It may not help your business, but at least you’ll have a relaxing evening and get to see three delightful Hollywood stars dance on the ceiling. Anyway, it’s a reminder that time marches on while history keeps repeating itself. Sometimes, if you can’t beat ‘em you join ‘em and sometimes you make a last stand. In some circles, clients have some sort of magical thinking (unrealistic arguments not related to the outcome). Music will always do a great job relaxing the stressful moments. And yes, history repeats itself. Instagram? How old school. TikTok is where it’s at. That's part of the interesting phenomenon, to some hype means quality or being able to deliver a project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Instagram? How old school. TikTok is where it’s at. I monitored a very interesting discussion during a seminar on marketing last week: quite bright and experienced people, discussing various marketing conduits and their relationships to one and the other. One point made was that studies reveal a tendency for particular age groups to get "stuck" in (or 'on') one particular medium, usually predicated by the age that group,was and the type of use that age group had with that medium, when that medium was 'where it was at'. The take away lesson was to know 'where it is at' for your Prospects: and not to fall into the trap of assuming that is always the latest medium. WW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 No doubt going in early on new mediums and then building an audience (aka 'herd') is absolute best practice for best marketing outcomes in that medium: but that wasn't the point I was making, nor the point that I was discussing. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samstevens Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 The fact that the newest I phone costs as much as a really good lens further detracts from it further as a useful thing. The newest iPhone is also a portable computer, and a telephone (thus the name), which is part of the cost. It helps to understand and consider the various uses of a useful thing when determining the useful thing’s value. Sure, I take pics with my phone. But mostly I use it as an emoji texting device to let my friends know my mood at all hours of the day. Oh, and it reminds me when to take my pills ... and most importantly, it remembers where I parked my car. Why, as we speak, it’s playing Joan Baez ... “the sky is falling and I must go ...” But before I do, I’d caution you — if you or anyone else is being called a nut, it may well be for other reasons than because you “stick with a technology that [you] know will never go out of style.” "You talkin' to me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samstevens Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 not nice to insinuate something there Oh, believe me, I’m not just insinuating. :) "You talkin' to me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moving On Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I use my phone more than my camera. I use my truck more than my bike. I enjoy my camera more than my phone, my bike more than my truck. To everything there is a season...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 I monitored a very interesting discussion during a seminar on marketing last week: quite bright and experienced people, discussing various marketing conduits and their relationships to one and the other. One point made was that studies reveal a tendency for particular age groups to get "stuck" in (or 'on') one particular medium, usually predicated by the age that group,was and the type of use that age group had with that medium, when that medium was 'where it was at'. The take away lesson was to know 'where it is at' for your Prospects: and not to fall into the trap of assuming that is always the latest medium. WW I've seen this too among publishers (website and content builders). There are interesting discussions (but long...) about how in the past it was "the desktop computer" and traditional media like radio. Then it became extra work in terms of "now post on your website, also on FB, don't forget twitter, linkedin, etc etc" and you could add like 4 or 8 depending on your region or market. This is related to the topic as being part of social communications, targets and business. It's... a lot of work, and studying the demographics (analytics when one actually has a website and strategies) sure means a hell of a lot more work, also understanding how people move from one group to another (if they do so), then... or better said: now, you have to add consuming the data on mobile, cellphones and not so much on desktop. I would understand this not being easy to relate when one only thinks about photography. Back to the point: many content creators (and business operators) had to choose and limit their efforts on networks or social groups because it is just too much work trying to stay relevant on several at once. This also includes what you used to generate the content "X camera" = oh such a dinosaur. It's amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hectorroldan Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 I use my phone more than my camera. I use my truck more than my bike. I enjoy my camera more than my phone, my bike more than my truck. To everything there is a season...... True. I remember some situations where using a cell phone (high end) mounted on a multi axis gimbal stabilizer had and unplanned positive effect on the audience, compared to a traditional camera filming video. The conclusion was among many, "oh they only have their photo cameras using the video recording function", regardless of the resolution or stabilization of such cameras, so the gimbal and smartphone won the battle those days. As the thread grows, originating from a question about opinions on the market, I'm growing more on reminding the audience that the business also involves "general image" over the clients, such an old phenomenon still has effects today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Katz Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 On the red carpet last night (on TV) I saw a photographer shooting with a big honking Canon DSLR and handle mount flash, but had a smartphone mounted on the top of his rig. while I assume the phone was taking video while DSLR was taking stills, this photographer was clearly a professional (to have the accreditation to work at the Oscars) and the output of both devices was for his clients. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samstevens Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 On the red carpet last night (on TV) I saw a photographer shooting with a big honking Canon DSLR and handle mount flash, but had a smartphone mounted on the top of his rig. while I assume the phone was taking video while DSLR was taking stills, this photographer was clearly a professional (to have the accreditation to work at the Oscars) and the output of both devices was for his clients. Yes, but what was he wearing? "You talkin' to me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) . . . There are interesting discussions (but long...) about how in the past it was "the desktop computer" and traditional media like radio. Then it became extra work in terms of "now post on your website, also on FB, don't forget twitter, linkedin, etc etc" and you could add like 4 or 8 depending on your region or market. . . . Back to the point: many content creators (and business operators) had to choose and limit their efforts on networks or social groups because it is just too much work trying to stay relevant on several at once. . . This also includes what you used to generate the content "X camera" . . . The seminar went on to discuss how, over time, a successive iteration of a technological advancement typically has a shorter life span than its predecessor. One (key) result is, each successive advancement has a smaller age range of those who are the “major impact recipients” of that technology – ergo arguably a smaller group who will have an heightened level of response and/or a longer period of response to that technology. For one simple example, there are more people who have (had) awareness of and an impact from the invention of radio, than from the invention of linkedin. If you take that theory and consider this topic - the use of mobile phones (cell phones) as ‘professional’ cameras – it would be a reasonable step to suggest that the group of Clients who do embrace the idea of their Photographer using a mobile phone would be comparatively small (compared to those who would be happy with using a traditional camera) but these "Smartphone Clients" probably will have subgroups and each subgroup could be quite particular about what model of mobile phone was to be used. WW Edited February 10, 2020 by William Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcstep Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 It's not about equipment, but the final product. I've seen "pros" at an events, with a DSLR, shooting low quality jpegs and uncorrected WB. If a photographer knows how to deal with the shortcomings of their equipment and delivers great results, why should I care what device they use? I'm not going to hire a photographer without seeing their prior work. The quality of the work is what determines professionalism, not the type or brand of camera. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen_h Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 As I said above, most of what makes a professional studio photographer is art: Getting the right pose, arrangement (more than one person), lighting, background, etc. Last time we had a family professional photography session, the photographer used a Canon 5D, about the time that the Mark III was out. Not the newest and greatest, but not bottom of the line, either. (I believe studio owned, so it wasn't her choice.) But if I see a bottom of the line point-and-shoot, I might wonder a little. Does remind me, though, of the contests that require all entrants to use a Holga or Diana camera. Yes there is a challenge in seeing what you can do with poor equipment. -- glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Claude Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Different clients, different levels of knowledge and experience. Also, different ages. IMO, knowledge of or about more sophisticated cameras is on the wane. A new generation of clients might be perfectly OK with phone cameras. FWIW, even though we now have focus stacking, I've taken some shots with very small sensor cameras that achieved DOF not easily had in a single shot (with larger sensors) otherwise. I could make a case that a phone camera might be the preferable tool in some cases. OTOH, I'm older and want a great whacking camera with fast lenses for reduced DOF, or maybe a 4x5 and all the stuff that goes with it. :D If I were a client, I'd reject phone cameras and could probably pick apart the images technically, but I'm not and technical criteria isn't usually the deciding factor as to what's a good image, as much as most serious photographers might think it should be. What means FWIW and OTOH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad_hoffman Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) FWIW = For what it's worth OTOH = On the other hand AFAIK = As far as I know IIRC = If I recall correctly YMMV = Your mileage may vary and many others you can look up as "internet abbreviations"! Edited February 14, 2020 by conrad_hoffman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now