non-ai lenses on a Nikon F6

[evan_bedford2]

Hi All,

 

So I've got a couple of non-ai lenses (which don't seem to interfere with the tab, thankfully). But a couple of questions, since my Nikon Df seems to handle these lenses somewhat differently than the F6. With the Df, I have to tell the camera how much I've stopped down the lens, but with the F6, am I OK to stop down without telling it what the aperture is set at? (I've already entered the correct non-CPU lens data into the camera).

 

Also, when I set "b6: screen comp" to +0.5 in the menu (as mentioned in the manual p.39), will the camera still operate normally when I exchange the non-ai lens for an AF lens? Or would I have to go back into the menu and change the setting every time I change the lens?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Evan

[BeBu Lamar]

I don't know how it would behave because Pre AI lens are not supported with the F6. The F5 is OK because with the F5 when you use non cpu lenses no matrix metering available. The F6 support matrix metering with AI lenses I don't know how it works with pre AI lens. Not in the manner of the Df though.

[rodeo_joe1]

Ain't there a manual for the camera?

 

Focussing screen compensation has absolutely nothing to do with the lens being used BTW. Unless it's a screen specifically designed for extremely long or short lenses.

[ben_hutcherson]

The Df is the only camera I know of that provides full open-aperture metering with both AI and non-AI lenses, and the latter through the two step aperture setting procedure(set on both the lens and the camera). All other AI cameras I know of that support non-AI lenses(F2A/F2AS, F3, F4, EL2, FM, FE) require the use of stop down metering with AI lenses.

 

I can't check my F6 at the moment hands on, but the manual seems to indicate that it does not work with stop down metering. Specifically, the manual says(if I'm reading it correctly) that when the DOF preview button is pressed, the meter reading is "locked" at the value before seen before the lens is stopped down. So, it would seem that, unlike an F4, no metering is possible with non-AI lenses.

 

BTW, I would use extreme caution with non-AI lenses on the F6, and assuming you can still do it have a flip-up aperture tab installed(there was a report on here probably a month back that in at least one country, Nikon no longer had the parts).

[JDMvW]

The Nikonians have a chart, though some here have said it's not necessarily current.

 

(LINK)

 

A Google™ will reveal others including the Ken Rockwell site.

 

My personal solution to non-AI lens compatibility with newer Nikon lens mounts was

1. to switch to Canon EOS where inexpensive adapters let my use non-AI lenses in stop-down mode with AE
   
2. to continue to use my Nikon F2, Nikkormat FTn, and Nikkormat EL for film work.
   

If the Df had been available in 2004, I'd probably still be a Nikonista today.

 

I think some people who have forced non-AI lenses onto newer Nikon bodies have been very lucky if they have "succeeded", since actual damage can occur on some models.

[orsetto]

with the F6, am I OK to stop down without telling it what the aperture is set at? (I've already entered the correct non-CPU lens data into the camera).

 

Yes, set the aperture to whatever you need, then press and hold the DOF button as you press the shutter button. In aperture priority auto mode, it will set the correct shutter speed based on the stopped-down amount of light coming thru the lens. In manual exposure mode, you would need to hold down the DOF preview while adjusting shutter speed until the bar graph centers. In either case, the camera meter compensates for the lack of AI coupling by reading the dimmer light from DOF mode (reads the actual stopped down light thru the aperture instead of relying on coupling trickery with the lens remaining wide open).

 

Also, when I set "b6: screen comp" to +0.5 in the menu (as mentioned in the manual p.39), will the camera still operate normally when I exchange the non-ai lens for an AF lens?

 

No, "b6: screen comp" is a sticky function. You'll need to go back in and turn it off when using AF lenses. You could probably get away with not using the b6 setting for most non-AI lenses: Nikon is sometimes more anal in its instructions than real life dictates. Using b6 optimizes the meter for stopped down readings with slow (f/4.5 or slower) lenses, but may not be significant otherwise. Other than the 80-200mm f/4.5 Zoom-Nikkor, 18mm f/4, or 20mm f/4, I can't think of a common non-AI lens slower than f/4 that would require the b6 meter compensation. A test roll should indicate whether you need it or not with your lenses.

 

Or would I have to go back into the menu and change the setting every time I change the lens?

 

As above, yes, you would.

 

Also, heed what ben_hutcherson said: be very VERY sure your non-AI lenses aperture rings don't come anywhere near the AI follower tab on your F6 lens mount. I learned this the hard way when I damaged the same AI tab/ring on my D700 lens mount by careless use of a few non-AI lenses I thought were clearing it. They weren't: oops.

[orsetto]

the manual says(if I'm reading it correctly) that when the DOF preview button is pressed, the meter reading is "locked" at the value before seen before the lens is stopped down. So, it would seem that, unlike an F4, no metering is possible with non-AI lenses.

 

Like most modern camera manuals, the one for the F6 borders on incomprehensible. I can see where it might be interpreted the way you suggest, but if you cross-reference all the caveats and footnotes it seems the exposure lock is tied to DOF only with AF lenses. Manual focus lenses (AI or non-AI) apparently don't trigger the DOF-exposure lock synergy because they lack the necessary interactive electronics.

 

Since you currently own both an F6 and several non-AI lenses, you'll be able to advise us for certain when your next opportunity arises to pull out that combo. :)

[James Bryant]

If I remember correctly, Nikon will modify a F6 to function with pre ai lenses. I don't remember the cost. I suggest contacting Nikon.

[evan_bedford2]

I don't know how it would behave because Pre AI lens are not supported with the F6. The F5 is OK because with the F5 when you use non cpu lenses no matrix metering available. The F6 support matrix metering with AI lenses I don't know how it works with pre AI lens. Not in the manner of the Df though.

 

Throughout the manual, it does say that most non-AI lenses are supported, but only via stop-down metering, and center-weighted or spot metering.

[evan_bedford2]

Ain't there a manual for the camera?

 

Focussing screen compensation has absolutely nothing to do with the lens being used BTW. Unless it's a screen specifically designed for extremely long or short lenses.

 

This one is a puzzle. The menu item refers not only to differing focus screens, but also differing lenses or tele-converters. I guess I'll try it both with the function set as advised by the manual, as well as with the function set to zero compensation. I wouldn't want to have to delve into the guts of the menu each time I switch from non-Ai to either an AI lens or a CPU lens.

[evan_bedford2]

The Df is the only camera I know of that provides full open-aperture metering with both AI and non-AI lenses, and the latter through the two step aperture setting procedure(set on both the lens and the camera). All other AI cameras I know of that support non-AI lenses(F2A/F2AS, F3, F4, EL2, FM, FE) require the use of stop down metering with AI lenses.

 

I can't check my F6 at the moment hands on, but the manual seems to indicate that it does not work with stop down metering. Specifically, the manual says(if I'm reading it correctly) that when the DOF preview button is pressed, the meter reading is "locked" at the value before seen before the lens is stopped down. So, it would seem that, unlike an F4, no metering is possible with non-AI lenses.

 

BTW, I would use extreme caution with non-AI lenses on the F6, and assuming you can still do it have a flip-up aperture tab installed(there was a report on here probably a month back that in at least one country, Nikon no longer had the parts).

 

Yes, that was I who had contacted Nikon Canada to discover that they no longer have the parts to allow a flip-tab. However I will file off an extremely small sliver of one of my non-Ai lenses, since it barely touches the tab as it rotates into position.

 

It seems that metering works with the non-Ai lenses, since the meter in the viewfinder changes when I change the lens aperture. I'm just puzzled as to why the camera then would need to know the widest f-stop and focal length of each lens, and then have it recorded in the menu system (just like the Df). Wouldn't the sensor automatically know what amount of light is getting through whether the lens is a CPU unit or simply a piece of cardboard with a pin-hole in it?

[evan_bedford2]

 

No, "b6: screen comp" is a sticky function. You'll need to go back in and turn it off when using AF lenses. You could probably get away with not using the b6 setting for most non-AI lenses: Nikon is sometimes more anal in its instructions than real life dictates. Using b6 optimizes the meter for stopped down readings with slow (f/4.5 or slower) lenses, but may not be significant otherwise. Other than the 80-200mm f/4.5 Zoom-Nikkor, 18mm f/4, or 20mm f/4, I can't think of a common non-AI lens slower than f/4 that would require the b6 meter compensation. A test roll should indicate whether you need it or not with your lenses.

 

Thanks. I should've read this before I replied to rodeo_jpe above.

[evan_bedford2]

... the exposure lock is tied to DOF only with AF lenses. Manual focus lenses (AI or non-AI) apparently don't trigger the DOF-exposure lock synergy because they lack the necessary interactive electronics.

 

Exactly. And nowhere in the manual -- that I could find -- does it mention using the DOF button for non-Ai lenses.

[evan_bedford2]

Hmm. I guess I should've read the manual a bit more closely. On page 144, it clearly indicates that the need for inputting non-CPU lens data only applies to AI lenses. For non-AI lenses, the user is supposed to specify the null option (ie, -------) for both widest aperture and for focal length.

 

But I will report back on how the testing goes, since I have 2 non-AI's (including an Olympus with a Leitax adapter), one AI, and one CPU.

[bgelfand]

Unless you are a collector, you may wish to send your lenses to John White at:

 

AI Conversions for Nikon Lenses: Effective, Fast and Affordable!

 

and have the converted to AI. Then you can meter at full aperture.

[orsetto]

And nowhere in the manual -- that I could find -- does it mention using the DOF button for non-Ai lenses.

 

The problem with the manual is that it scatters info regarding metering with non-AI lenses in three different sections separated by dozens of pages. Its presented in tangled haiku, often in minuscule type accompanied by obscure footnotes.

 

The essentials are covered on page 39 in the "Lens Compatibility" chapter. In the "Non-CPU" lens chart, to the right of the line for "Non-AI Type Nikkors", you'll see the possible meter modes listed as Aperture Priority and Manual, with only possible meter pattern being Centerweighted. Footnote 6 re Aperture Priority instructs "release shutter while pressing DOF button" (i.e., camera will set correct shutter speed thru stopped down lens). Footnote 7 re Manual Metering Mode vaguely states only that it works "via stopped down metering" (which in Nikon-speak translates to "press the DOF button while adjusting aperture ring and shutter speed control to null the meter"). Footnote 8 re Centerweighted metering with Non-AI lenses suggests using the half stop boost in the b6 menu.

 

The reason the F6 doesn't want you to input any lens info when using Non-AI lenses is that it has no way of tracking the variables: without the AI or AF coupling it can't register the aperture set in the viewfinder display or EXIF card. The data system is operating blind, so to speak: it can measure the light and meter correctly in a purely analog sense, but the computer has no way to track aperture ring settings with non-AI lenses. This holds even if you were able to get the F6 non-AI mount compatibility modification: all that does is let you flip the fragile AI tab out of the way from non-AI barrel intrusion. Why the hell Nikon cheaped out and made that 99 cent part a $99 retrofit option instead of just including it as standard on the multi-thousand dollar F5 and F6 (as it was on the far less expensive F3 & F4) remains a mystery known only to Nikon board members.

 

The Df adds a redundant non-AI aperture setting: you tell the camera the focal length and max aperture as if it were an AI lens, then use a separate control to input the aperture you set on the lens itself into the meter/EXIF system. While rather awkward, this does emulate how an AI lens would cooperate with the AI tab, allowing full aperture metering (without pressing DOF button) and recording proper EXIF data with non-AI lenses.

Edited October 26, 2019 by orsetto

[evan_bedford2]

Unless you are a collector, you may wish to send your lenses to John White at:

 

AI Conversions for Nikon Lenses: Effective, Fast and Affordable!

 

and have the converted to AI. Then you can meter at full aperture.

 

I think this only works for non-shift lenses, though. My Nikkor PC 28mm f4, for example, has the aperture ring right up near the front glass element. Same with my Oly/Leitax conversion.

[evan_bedford2]

The problem with the manual is that it scatters info regarding metering with non-AI lenses in three different sections separated by dozens of pages. Its presented in tangled haiku, often in minuscule type accompanied by obscure footnotes.

 

The essentials are covered on page 39 in the "Lens Compatibility" chapter. In the "Non-CPU" lens chart, to the right of the line for "Non-AI Type Nikkors", you'll see the possible meter modes listed as Aperture Priority and Manual, with only possible meter pattern being Centerweighted. Footnote 6 re Aperture Priority instructs "release shutter while pressing DOF button" (i.e., camera will set correct shutter speed thru stopped down lens). Footnote 7 re Manual Metering Mode vaguely states only that it works "via stopped down metering" (which in Nikon-speak translates to "press the DOF button while adjusting aperture ring and shutter speed control to null the meter"). Footnote 8 re Centerweighted metering with Non-AI lenses suggests using the half stop boost in the b6 menu.

 

The reason the F6 doesn't want you to input any lens info when using Non-AI lenses is that it has no way of tracking the variables: without the AI or AF coupling it can't register the aperture set in the viewfinder display or EXIF card. The data system is operating blind, so to speak: it can measure the light and meter correctly in a purely analog sense, but the computer has no way to track aperture ring settings with non-AI lenses. This holds even if you were able to get the F6 non-AI mount compatibility modification: all that does is let you flip the fragile AI tab out of the way from non-AI barrel intrusion. Why the hell Nikon cheaped out and made that 99 cent part a $99 retrofit option instead of just including it as standard on the multi-thousand dollar F5 and F6 (as it was on the far less expensive F3 & F4) remains a mystery known only to Nikon board members.

 

The Df adds a redundant non-AI aperture setting: you tell the camera the focal length and max aperture as if it were an AI lens, then use a separate control to input the aperture you set on the lens itself into the meter/EXIF system. While rather awkward, this does emulate how an AI lens would cooperate with the AI tab, allowing full aperture metering (without pressing DOF button) and recording proper EXIF data with non-AI lenses.

 

Very well put. You should be a technical writer for Nikon.

[rodeo_joe1]

I think this only works for non-shift lenses, though. My Nikkor PC 28mm f4, for example, has the aperture ring right up near the front glass element.

You can't use stop-down metering with a shifted P-C lens anyway. You have to meter wide open, or shift after metering.

 

Of course, you could simply ignore the CPU in the camera and use the one in your head.

 

The wide open metering says 1/500th @ f/2.8 for example, and you want to shoot at f/5.6: That's two stops down and you need to move the shutter two full steps to 1/125th. It isn't that hard, and doesn't take that long.

 

Or ditch the F6 and get an old Nikkormat or the like that has no problem using pre-AI lenses. The pictures will look no different.

Edited October 27, 2019 by rodeo_joe|1

[mike_halliwell]

The wide open metering says 1/500th @ f/2.8 for example, and you want to shoot at f/5.6: That's two stops down and you need to move the shutter two full steps to 1/125th. It isn't that hard, and doesn't take that long.

....and of course if you're that keen on getting the right exposure, simply have a digital body next to you with a lens of the same focal length and examine the histogram post-shot.

 

...and repeat.

[evan_bedford2]

You can't use stop-down metering with a shifted P-C lens anyway. You have to meter wide open, or shift after metering.

 

Of course, you could simply ignore the CPU in the camera and use the one in your head.

 

The wide open metering says 1/500th @ f/2.8 for example, and you want to shoot at f/5.6: That's two stops down and you need to move the shutter two full steps to 1/125th. It isn't that hard, and doesn't take that long.

 

Or ditch the F6 and get an old Nikkormat or the like that has no problem using pre-AI lenses. The pictures will look no different.

 

Ahh, but will the Nikkormat also do autofocus with my 28-105 zoom? :D

[rodeo_joe1]

Ahh, but will the Nikkormat also do autofocus with my 28-105 zoom?

No, and it won't show you an instant review of what you just shot on its LCD screen, or allow you to change ISO from 100 to 6400 from one shot to the next. It won't shoot more than 36 or 37 shots in succession without a pit stop either and its cost per shot isn't infinitesimally small. But then your F6 won't do any of that either.

[ben_hutcherson]

Joe, how long are we going to have to wait before you put your current anti-film crusade to bed?

[rodeo_joe1]

Joe, how long are we going to have to wait before you put your current anti-film crusade to bed?

Was that anti-film? No.

I was just listing a few facilities that are offered by some cameras and not others. You can have the latest facilities, or you can have 'rabbit ears' lens compatibility.

 

Having used quite a few pre-Ai lenses, I don't see anything very special in many of them worth clinging to. But if you're really desperate to use those lenses, then I see no hardship in fitting them to a period-correct body as well.

Edited October 29, 2019 by rodeo_joe|1

[BeBu Lamar]

Joe, how long are we going to have to wait before you put your current anti-film crusade to bed?

 

I agree with you about Joe being anti-film but his post about the Nikkormat is correct. If you have to stop down metering with the F6, manual focus with the F6. Then it's really no better than the Nikkormat. Besides the lens would look better on the Nikkormat.