Nikon Introduces Mirrorless Z System

[ilkka_nissila]

Just like film can coexist with digital but if one wins it tends to be almost the only one. Just like Leica still makes rangefinder. They don't completely go away but to most people they don't exist.

 

In many fields there are multiple technologies in use. For example electricity and heat are produced using varying approaches and there is no one approach that has gotten close to being dominant, despite there being obvious differences in pollution produced. Similarly, there is no one food which is consumed by humans and liked by everyone. I think of DSLRs and mirrorless in the same way: different tools for different people and purposes.

[Andrew Garrard]

Playing catch up...

 

Ooh, LoCA, my pet topic, came up. I believe the manual for the 135 DC actually said "don't rely on autofocus with DC set away from 0". That was certainly my experience with it.

 

To be clear, my understanding is that the Z7 can autofocus at 9fps (and the Z6 at 12fps), but you can't see what it's autofocussing on because the subset of the readout doesn't go to the viewfinder. That is, the AF points still read out quickly and separately, but pulling the full information off the chip for the frame rate stops a partial update being pulled out for viewfinder update and metering purposes. That kind of suggests that the camera can't repurpose the full frame data (reducing the viewfinder and metering rate to "just" 9fps and lagging a bit) and has to have a separate sub-resolution readout.

 

There are a few things that seem nice. 10-bit log video (although why they can't stick to HLG or PQ rather than inventing their own...), the configurable AF size (I was trying to focus on distant landscapes through various trees over the last couple of weeks, and PDAF refused not to track the foreground), the apparently not stupid version of Snapbridge (oh you actually want to talk to a computer), obviously having PDOS for video. I'm glad there's the "don't try to use picture controls" option for the finder. Controls on the right are good, although they look a little squished. Nikon still have a "finger on the shutter while you change the dial" philosophy, and they still forgot it when it came to ISO and exposure compensation.

 

The smaller buffer and lack of viewfinder at 9 (or even 7) FPS loses me, though. I'm not very happy about the lack of 1/250s sync. Rumours of the AF mode being a bit fiddly to set are alarming. That the battery grip doesn't look to include controls (unless there are connections for them inside the battery compartment) isn't all that appealing. I'm in no rush to switch to mirrorless; Z7 mk II (or Z8) might tempt me more, which is just as well since I'm paying for my D850 by installments. It's no worse than the D850, but I was disappointed to see you still need a dongle to trigger an SB-5000.

 

In other news, they've followed Sony in the "very good, but how much?" 50mm f/1.8 line. The sample images in the brochure 35mm show a bit of cat's eye vignetting for the 35mm, which is a bit disappointing all things considered. I have no understanding why the 50mm f/0.95 ended up manual focus (contrast detect only, yes, but manual?) The lack of LoCA is nice to see. The "S line" nomenclature is a bit awkward - at least, I keep reading the 24-70 f/4 S as 24-70 f/4.5. Plus the international issues with pronouncing the letter "Z". I'll be interested to see how the lenses hold up after more testing, but it's not entirely clear to me how badly the F mount compromises things, even if I can see that extending the rear element farther to the sides of the sensor could have merits.

 

The lens adaptor... well, I guess that's what we expected. At least it has an EE post switch. I guess it runs in stop-down mode if you start using the aperture ring, hence the limits on the digital rangefinder when you do that. The tripod foot on the lens adaptor seems like a mixed blessing. The limitations encouraged me to check whether there's an AF-D lens with VR; the original 80-400 is one, but were there any others?

 

Still, these cameras seem to be aimed at enthusiasts (the D750 and D8x0 crowd). Which makes me a little gobsmacked at just how many pages in the brochure are dedicated to in-camera picture controls. My number one objection to the "the viewfinder shows what your image will look like" argument is that I never know what it'll look like until I'm done processing; I certainly don't have time to fiddle in the field before each shot, so such a preview is largely useless to me (with the arguable exception, I admit, that running my Coolpix A in monochrome is mildly helpful, even if I reconvert the raws manually). I kind of assume most (not all) people going for this kind of system aren't going to be put off the idea of using a computer, and are less likely to care about the JPEG output.

 

I'd hoped to have it done by now, but none of this has stopped me from doing a camera feature survey. I'll finish writing stuff up soon; much is still relevant both to the Z cameras and to any other DSLRs.

 

So, the Z7 is kind of a D840 (gains a few features, loses a few). The Z6 is more clearly a step up from the D750, which was an old body anyway. I suspect the question is whether it's going to be the only D750 successor or whether Nikon might squeeze out another dSLR in that segment. More interesting will be to see what happens to the D5 for Tokyo 2020, and the DX "feeder bodies" in the next few months.

[ilkka_nissila]

believe the manual for the 135 DC actually said "don't rely on autofocus with DC set away from 0".

I don't have the manual at hand but I believe the correct process is to first adjust DC, then focus (either auto or manual). Adjusting the DC ring changes the focus.

 

you can't see what it's autofocussing on

True, I would think the idea in this case is that one would use some kind of automated subject recognition and tracking when shooting at full fps rate of the camera. But I suspect most people will see these as 5.5 fps cameras. Which is just fine I think. Shooting blind or worse, with a delayed slideshow is definitely not my cup of tea.

the apparently not stupid version of Snapbridge (oh you actually want to talk to a computer)

 

Well the mobile phone application is Snapbridge, the talk to a computer part is just wi-fi. Nikon seem to have realized that Snapbridge isn't very good and people want a real wi-fi back thank you very much.

 

I was disappointed to see you still need a dongle to trigger an SB-5000.

 

You can buy a Phase One camera that will solve the problem (talking to Profoto flashes). :D But at least I'm happy that the same dongle works with DSLRs and Z mirrorless. At least Nikon didn't invent yet another incompatible proprietary flash interface.

 

in the brochure 35mm show a bit of cat's eye vignetting for the 35mm,

 

I looked at the images in the brochure and got the opposite impression and I was happy that there was so little cat's eye effect in the 35mm prime images.

 

I have no understanding why the 50mm f/0.95 ended up manual focus

 

Well, optical quality perhaps, it's hard to make a really good lens if you have to have light weight moving elements inside, and tolerances for their wobble. For mirrorless the focus group needs to be light weight, and for a high quality 58/0.95 I'm guessing they didn't want to make any compromises in that area. However, there will be an autofocus 50/1.2 so that is something to consider. Likely the estimated 6000€ price of the 58/0.95 is too much for most of us, anyway.

 

I've got this feeling that the manual focus with really long throw of the 58/0.95 could be targeted for video as well as stills. The accelerated manual focus of the regular, autofocus primes doesn't seem a very good idea. But a normal manual focus with very long throw and ridiculously large aperture could find some users in filmmaking. They have the budget for it, and maybe they will like the video features of this camera.

 

Plus the international issues with pronouncing the letter "Z".

 

To see; that's so logical for a camera and lens system at least in English.

 

I guess it runs in stop-down mode if you start using the aperture ring,

 

I'm not exactly sure but I believe it is possible to compose wide open (lens set to min aperture, camera holds aperture open) and let the camera stop down and confirm/adjust the metering by reading off the sensor just before taking the exposure, so I don't see why it would have to be wide open for composing, unless Nikon simply wanted that (if there is focus shift stopped down focusing may be more accurate at least if there is enough light). It is possible the camera won't let the shutter fire if the lens is not at the minimum aperture.

 

I suspect the question is whether it's going to be the only D750 successor or whether Nikon might squeeze out another dSLR in that segment.

 

I would think they keep updating both, it should be fairly straightforward to swap the sensor and include full sensor readout 4K and proper live view and video focusing, which could potentially make people happy (those who like dual pixel on Canon DSLRs for video and LV AF), same with D850 update. I think there is enough reason to do that but then I may not be the majority. There are apparently people who want an EVF, to my puzzlement.

[BeBu Lamar]

Playing catch up...

 

Ooh, LoCA, my pet topic, came up. I believe the manual for the 135 DC actually said "don't rely on autofocus with DC set away from 0". That was certainly my experience with it.

 

To be clear, my understanding is that the Z7 can autofocus at 9fps (and the Z6 at 12fps), but you can't see what it's autofocussing on because the subset of the readout doesn't go to the viewfinder. That is, the AF points still read out quickly and separately, but pulling the full information off the chip for the frame rate stops a partial update being pulled out for viewfinder update and metering purposes. That kind of suggests that the camera can't repurpose the full frame data (reducing the viewfinder and metering rate to "just" 9fps and lagging a bit) and has to have a separate sub-resolution readout.

 

There are a few things that seem nice. 10-bit log video (although why they can't stick to HLG or PQ rather than inventing their own...), the configurable AF size (I was trying to focus on distant landscapes through various trees over the last couple of weeks, and PDAF refused not to track the foreground), the apparently not stupid version of Snapbridge (oh you actually want to talk to a computer), obviously having PDOS for video. I'm glad there's the "don't try to use picture controls" option for the finder. Controls on the right are good, although they look a little squished. Nikon still have a "finger on the shutter while you change the dial" philosophy, and they still forgot it when it came to ISO and exposure compensation.

 

The smaller buffer and lack of viewfinder at 9 (or even 7) FPS loses me, though. I'm not very happy about the lack of 1/250s sync. Rumours of the AF mode being a bit fiddly to set are alarming. That the battery grip doesn't look to include controls (unless there are connections for them inside the battery compartment) isn't all that appealing. I'm in no rush to switch to mirrorless; Z7 mk II (or Z8) might tempt me more, which is just as well since I'm paying for my D850 by installments. It's no worse than the D850, but I was disappointed to see you still need a dongle to trigger an SB-5000.

 

In other news, they've followed Sony in the "very good, but how much?" 50mm f/1.8 line. The sample images in the brochure 35mm show a bit of cat's eye vignetting for the 35mm, which is a bit disappointing all things considered. I have no understanding why the 50mm f/0.95 ended up manual focus (contrast detect only, yes, but manual?) The lack of LoCA is nice to see. The "S line" nomenclature is a bit awkward - at least, I keep reading the 24-70 f/4 S as 24-70 f/4.5. Plus the international issues with pronouncing the letter "Z". I'll be interested to see how the lenses hold up after more testing, but it's not entirely clear to me how badly the F mount compromises things, even if I can see that extending the rear element farther to the sides of the sensor could have merits.

 

The lens adaptor... well, I guess that's what we expected. At least it has an EE post switch. I guess it runs in stop-down mode if you start using the aperture ring, hence the limits on the digital rangefinder when you do that. The tripod foot on the lens adaptor seems like a mixed blessing. The limitations encouraged me to check whether there's an AF-D lens with VR; the original 80-400 is one, but were there any others?

 

Still, these cameras seem to be aimed at enthusiasts (the D750 and D8x0 crowd). Which makes me a little gobsmacked at just how many pages in the brochure are dedicated to in-camera picture controls. My number one objection to the "the viewfinder shows what your image will look like" argument is that I never know what it'll look like until I'm done processing; I certainly don't have time to fiddle in the field before each shot, so such a preview is largely useless to me (with the arguable exception, I admit, that running my Coolpix A in monochrome is mildly helpful, even if I reconvert the raws manually). I kind of assume most (not all) people going for this kind of system aren't going to be put off the idea of using a computer, and are less likely to care about the JPEG output.

 

I'd hoped to have it done by now, but none of this has stopped me from doing a camera feature survey. I'll finish writing stuff up soon; much is still relevant both to the Z cameras and to any other DSLRs.

 

So, the Z7 is kind of a D840 (gains a few features, loses a few). The Z6 is more clearly a step up from the D750, which was an old body anyway. I suspect the question is whether it's going to be the only D750 successor or whether Nikon might squeeze out another dSLR in that segment. More interesting will be to see what happens to the D5 for Tokyo 2020, and the DX "feeder bodies" in the next few months.

 

Boy it seems like Nikon doesn't have a chance. If you don't buy a Z in 6 months I can write off the Zet as a failure. But I think they did listen to you in making the camera does stop down metering.

[Andrew Garrard]

:-)

 

Good point, both - I assume the metering system is fast enough to cope with being activated after stopping down, but I suppose there's no reason why it shouldn't. I'm clearly still thinking in SLR terms.

 

I'd like to see these cameras, but in their current form, there would need to be more before I felt they improved over what I already have with a gripped D850. (Thom Hogan appears to agree.) That may be a very clever bit of positioning to avoid annoying all the people who just bought a D850 - it certainly didn't completely obsolete it. YMMV, especially if you shoot video or need silence. I'll be interested to see some proper tests of the system, in their time. While Nikon still haven't fixed everything I've grumbled about (and many things I haven't), the system seems like a moderately solid introduction.

 

Incidentally, the CIPA numbers for battery life still confuse me. The D850 and Df do particularly well because the tests require firing a flash (which neither camera has), and this eats battery. There's also a lot more chimping than would be common on a dSLR. The main reason I'm struggling with battery on my D850 is that I keep churning through a lot of frames trying to capture wildlife, which I wouldn't have managed on my D810. Given that the Z bodies must have been running at least the EVF screen anyway, I'm not sure why the test would have underestimated so badly. More testing would tell me a lot - one advantage I expect for a dSLR is battery, and I'll pay attention if this isn't the case.

[ilkka_nissila]

I suppose it’s possible the CIPA test was run in a with really early firmware and doesn't reflect reality. Hopefully Nikon get this sorted out.

 

One thing that I'm happy about is that Nikon seem to have caught up with video AF now in the Z cameras. Rishi Sanyal of dpreview said in a video that the [Z6/Z7] video AF is probably the strongest they've seen in a mirrorless camera. I believe that the lack of usable AF during video recording in their DSLRs has been one of the main reasons why Nikon have lost market share in recent years, so hopefully this sorts it out. I would like to see similar LV and video AF improvements in the DSLRs as well, in the next generations.

[mike_halliwell]

What does this actually mean?

 

"Additionally, the control ring built into NIKKOR Z lenses can be used to quietly and smoothly adjust settings such as aperture and exposure compensation."

 

From :- Nikon | News | Nikon introduces the new Nikon Z mount system, and releases two full-frame mirrorless cameras: the Nikon Z 7 and Nikon Z 6 Para 6.

 

When is a focus ring not a focus ring ?

[ShunCheung]

I understand the manual focus ring on the Z-mount lenses can be programmed to perform other functions. If one only uses AF, there is no need to use that ring for focusing purposes. Might as well take advantage of it to perform other functions.

[BeBu Lamar]

What does this actually mean?

 

"Additionally, the control ring built into NIKKOR Z lenses can be used to quietly and smoothly adjust settings such as aperture and exposure compensation."

 

From :- Nikon | News | Nikon introduces the new Nikon Z mount system, and releases two full-frame mirrorless cameras: the Nikon Z 7 and Nikon Z 6 Para 6.

 

When is a focus ring not a focus ring ?

 

When it's a control ring. It sends it movement to the camera and the camera can then be programmed to change something. Just anything. For now as Nikon said it's can change aperture or exposure compensation as well as focusing.

[Andrew Garrard]

Oh, I thought it was a separate ring, not the focus ring. I wasn't looking closely. Nice idea, and for bigger glass much more practical than a front ring on the body.

 

While I've resorted to manual focus a few times recently when the AF system has refused to look at a small subject, I'm usually AF-only, and meant to check which of my lenses support custom A13 (disable manual focus). I'm hoping the new 70-200 is one, because I keep nudging the ring while holding the lens, especially with the foot removed.

[rodeo_joe1]

I understand the manual focus ring on the Z-mount lenses can be programmed to perform other functions. If one only uses AF, there is no need to use that ring for focusing purposes. Might as well take advantage of it to perform other functions.

 

- Sony have already been there and done that!

The kit lens on my a6000 swaps its ring function from zoom to focus when switched to MF mode. Also, in that mode touching the ring automatically switches on EVF magnification.

 

Quite an ergonomic arrangement.

Edited August 29, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

[Andrew Garrard]

One other thought I meant to chime in:

 

I use two card slots in my D8x0 bodies very rarely for backup, and mostly because I can stick JPEGs on the SD card and stuff them in a laptop without needing a card reader. That'll obviously be a problem when/if I switch to a newer MacBook, without an integrated reader, but SD readers are still cheaper and smaller than the XQD reader.

 

That would be a minor black mark for me with the Z bodies having a single slot. But they also have a version of Snapbridge which actually acknowledges that people might like to copy data to a PC (something I can only do with my D8x0 bodies if I put a slow Eye-Fi card in there). Assuming XQD failures are rare, this means I might actually not care, and would actually find it easier to transfer JPEGs around wirelessly. Although I still wish it was just a web server interface like the overpriced dedicated connector.

 

Also, as someone who travels with cameras, the integrated battery charging is nice to have. I still don't have an imminent need for one, but kudos to Nikon for actually getting some things right, for me.

[BeBu Lamar]

One thing I am disappointed is that Nikon didn't have the aperture ring on the Z lenses. But then I am no MILC guy so they shouldn't please me. I do like the new command dial and also Nikon didn't put the EC there. Also as I have said before the big knob on the side of the viewfinder is the diopter adjustment and I like the big one like that. I wonder how you change metering mode though.

[ShunCheung]

One thing I am disappointed is that Nikon didn't have the aperture ring on the Z lenses.

I assume you can program the ring on Z lenses to control the aperture, instead of controlling focusing, but it won't have the aperture markings f4, f5.6 ....

 

But at least IMO, focusing ring is very 20th century. I haven't used them much since my F5 in 1997.

 

Sorry, major typo on my part, I meant to say the aperture ring is very 20th century, the not focusing ring. The fingers are not typing what the brain really thinks. :(

Edited August 30, 2018 by ShunCheung

[BeBu Lamar]

I assume you can program the ring on Z lenses to control the aperture, instead of controlling focusing, but it won't have the aperture markings f4, f5.6 ....

 

But at least IMO, focusing ring is very 20th century. I haven't used them much since my F5 in 1997.

 

Well without a dedicated aperture ring which has the f/stop marking there is no way to include an A position. With an A position on the lens and an A position on the camera shutter speed dial you don't need the PSAM dial. It's similar to what Fuji does but then Fuji doesn't make all of their lenses with the aperture ring either.

Edited August 30, 2018 by ShunCheung

[ilkka_nissila]

But they also have a version of Snapbridge which actually acknowledges that people might like to copy data to a PC

 

Snapridge is the mobile app, the transfer of data to PC using wi-fi doesn't involve Snapbridge, but a PC application called Wireless Transmitter Utility. The same program is used to receive files when using the WT-5/6/7 (but in the Z6/Z7, the hardware is built in) or with an Ethernet wired connection (with e.g., the D5).

[ilkka_nissila]

Some of the new lenses (Noct 58/0.95, the 24-70/2.8 if I recall correctly) have a display on the barrel which I would suspect can be programmed to display the aperture in use.

 

I like manual focusing when doing macro, landscape and architectural photography. I don't use it much in people photography but in some situations it can be handy. For example when you have several people approaching the camera, optimal sharpness may be achieved across the people may require focusing between two persons and stopping down. Autofocus is simply unable to do this.

[ShunCheung]

Nikon's up-coming Noct lens will be a 58mm/f0.95 (58, not 50mm).

 

Apparently in the announcement in Tokyo on August 23 a week ago, Nikon had a prototype inside a display case. The Noct is manual focus only, no AF, and there is a distance scale on the barrel. It is big enough that it also has a tripod collar. I suppose in this case the focusing ring cannot be reprogrammed to control something else or you won't be able to focus.

 

See the following image (#12) on DPReview, and also the page before it #11.

 

A closer look at Nikon's new Z6 and future Z-mount lenses

[Andrew Garrard]

For example when you have several people approaching the camera, optimal sharpness may be achieved across the people may require focusing between two persons and stopping down. Autofocus is simply unable to do this.

 

Actually, it's exactly what Canon's A-Dep mode used to do (line up the focus points, adjust aperture to cover them, and focus in the middle). With more AF points in flight it's a bit harder to think how this could work, unless you rely on face detect - but it can go back on the request list!

[Andrew Garrard]

But they also have a version of Snapbridge which actually acknowledges that people might like to copy data to a PC

 

Snapridge is the mobile app, the transfer of data to PC using wi-fi doesn't involve Snapbridge, but a PC application called Wireless Transmitter Utility. The same program is used to receive files when using the WT-5/6/7 (but in the Z6/Z7, the hardware is built in) or with an Ethernet wired connection (with e.g., the D5).

 

Oops. Sorry, I'll try to get the terminology right. Nonetheless, the cameras can do it, and the D850 irritatingly can't. I've used Snapbridge (for real) to share a couple of photos with my wife when I was away, sending them to my phone for WhatsApp, but full wireless transfer to the computer would be convenient even if it's slow.

 

 

Well without a dedicated aperture ring which has the f/stop marking there is no way to include an A position. With an A position on the lens and an A position on the camera shutter speed dial you don't need the PSAM dial. It's similar to what Fuji does but then Fuji doesn't make all of their lenses with the aperture ring either.

 

While logically nice, I'm not entirely sold on the "A position" argument. Largely because if you decide to switch between M or A and P (which I've been known to do while handing the camera to others), you lose the aperture you were previously on. Especially fiddly if you work in thirds of a stop. I do find the Df's dial less convenient than the normal mode button on the D8x0 bodies.

 

But at least IMO, focusing ring is very 20th century. I haven't used them much since my F5 in 1997.

 

Usually, neither do I (except with actual manual lenses like my tilt shifts). While overseas, though, I've found:

• I cannot get the AF system to lock on a hovering dragonfly (which is presumably barely there to the AF sensor); I can focus manually reasonably well.
  
• When trying to shoot mountains through nearby foliage, I can't get the AF system to ignore the nearby branches, even if the AF sensor point appears to be entirely free of tree. I may do better with single point (rather than 3D tracking), but I'd run out of buttons for different AF modes. Live view would have coped, but manual focus sufficed.
  

So: Occasionally useful. I'm nothing like good enough to make minor tweaks to focus in normal use, though.

[ShunCheung]

Again, sorry about a major typo on my part. I meant to say the aperture ring is very 20th century. The focusing ring is obviously still necessary, especially with manual-focus lenses.

[Andrew Garrard]

Again, sorry about a major typo on my part. I meant to say the aperture ring is very 20th century. The focusing ring is obviously still necessary, especially with manual-focus lenses.

 

Oh. Yes. Well, except for my AI lenses, where I've not had a choice. (I'd still like to know why a dSLR can't control the aperture for you on AI-S lenses.) And my third-party tilt-shifts and macro, which don't talk to the camera at all. :-) Maybe if I shot timelapse I'd use it.

[ilkka_nissila]

The problem is that if two people are moving it would not be realistic for the photographer to specify which people to focus in-between, one would need two joysticks to move the points while everything is moving. I could do this with a 28mm wide angle and stopping down to f/5.6, for example, by focusing manually and it wasn't hard to do, but I can't get the autofocus to do it.

[Andrew Garrard]

Yes - my Eos 300D gets away with it by only having seven AF points, so you can tell what they cover. Face detect group mode might solve the interface problem.

[BeBu Lamar]

Oh. Yes. Well, except for my AI lenses, where I've not had a choice. (I'd still like to know why a dSLR can't control the aperture for you on AI-S lenses.) And my third-party tilt-shifts and macro, which don't talk to the camera at all. :) Maybe if I shot timelapse I'd use it.

 

If Nikon wants to I think with the FTZ adapter they should be able to make all Nikkor works with the Z except AF on screw drive lenses. They should be able to make the camera both meter and function in all exposure modes PSAM. The way to do it is to to do something like what they did on the Df that in both A and M mode your have to match the aperture in the display and the aperture ring. In P and S mode just leave the aperture to minimum. Even AI or Pre-AI the movement of the aperture stop down level isn't linear but I think it can do the stop down measurement before exposure and make a small correction with the shutter speed like they did on the FA.