Ed_Ingold Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I have seen some remarkable macros with multiple shots combined. Are.you referring to focus stacking? How about exposure stacking to reduce thermal noise and vignetting in astrophotography? I don't think we need special forums for these topics either. When they arise in existing forums, they stimulate intelligent conversations. If you don't notice a difference from a simple photograph, then I think you make my point. All things in moderation. Polarizers have their place, but may eliminate specular highlights, as in the lily pads above, making them flat and lifeless, even while making colors more saturated. They won't improve a cloudy sky, and may reveal still water to be murky and brown. Polarizers do a better job reducing haze than so-called haze filters (scattered light is polarized). In the midwest, they improve the color of blue sky, but in bands with a wide angle lens. In the arid west, a polarizer may render skies deep purple rather than an attractive shade. Any flat piece of glass attached to the lens tends to produce veiling flare if the camera is pointed in the general direction of the sun. I have a small fortune tied up in polarizing filters, but find I seldom use them. A polarizer on my rear-facing dash cam makes faces of tail-gaters easily recognizable. That may prove valuable in court some day ;) These are all just tools, and not every "problem" is a nail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Your HDR version gives more of a sense of space due to more detail retrieval in the roof structures. In a regular shot, exposing for the roof would have caused more blown highlights in the bright parts. That’s where, combining multiple shots helps I think. In most cases, I can retrieve shadow detail from RAW in Lightroom without sacrificing highlights, but what cannot be retrieved completely is the color saturation. HDR shots can render details in the shadow (or bright) areas while maintaining realistic color. That’s why I think, HDR is so popular in genres where color rendition is critical, like landscapes. This is my opinion anyway. Example of in-camera HDR in Sony mirrorless: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 davidtriplett, i like ur 1st photo for the same reasons as u and also because the photo with hdr looks flatter There’s always something new under the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 The most recent post on this topic seems to be 2015, and the earliest 2012 Come again? The HDR Photography -- Before and After category at uglyhedgehog started in July 2012 and continues to this date with over 1500 threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTriplett Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 In most cases, I can retrieve shadow detail from RAW in Lightroom without sacrificing highlights, That was pretty much what I experienced with the first image. I'm sure a more thorough evaluation and PP would make it even better, including fixing the green ghosts, but this was just for our HDR or not-to-HDR discussion. Love your Zion image, BTW. Using HDR in this case really helps the image to render what the eye sees in-situ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 A single image can be manipulated through tone-mapping, with results similar to that stacking several bracketed images. This is largely due to a property of some sensors called "iso invariance," where images raised in post or by increasing the ISO value are nearly equivalent. In my personal experience, a Sony A7Rii and A7Riii behave very nicely in this regard, whereas you are better off using ISO alone in an A9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 This is largely due to a property of some sensors called "iso invariance," where images raised in post or by increasing the ISO value are nearly equivalent. Iso invariance is a myth. The laws of physics dictate that underexposing causes the signal to noise ratio to get worse. Now, it may be that the increased noise level is still acceptable, but it is increased nonetheless. Dpreview has an excellent tool to demonstrate the impact of underexposing at various levels for many different cameras here: Image comparison: Digital Photography Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald Cafferty Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Even the original OP has gone off theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 Even the original OP has gone off theme? Might as well, as on average there has been quite a lack of interest to make HDR a separate category. Maybe I should start a new thread about "iso invariance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Vongries Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Maybe I should start a new thread about "iso invariance". I think the successful life of a category depends on having a bit of depth. Subjects that are more narrowly focused can probably be covered very adequately under a larger topic and in the context where they become relevant and of interest. Just my opinion. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) Iso invariance is a myth. The laws of physics dictate that underexposing causes the signal to noise ratio to get worse. Now, it may be that the increased noise level is still acceptable, but it is increased nonetheless DPReview has shown that there is less noise, in some sensors, if gain is applied to a RAW image in post, than by increasing the ISO setting, all else being equal. This is related to HDR processing in general, and tone-mapping in particular, because the latter employs selective gain for various parts of the image. As far as creating a new heading for HDR, I think this thread has pretty well exhausted the the topic, except for details which may arise from time to time. The following image was tone-mapped from a single frame, shown below. Edited August 21, 2018 by Ed_Ingold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 DPReview has shown that there is less noise, in some sensors, if gain is applied to a RAW image in post, than by increasing the ISO setting, all else being equal. Isn't that the exception, caused by some camera algorithms switching from amplifier gain to digital adjustments? All else being equal (no change in algorithm) the more underexposure, the worse signal-to-noise ratio. Your example doesn't address the iso invariance myth; it shows that sometimes we make compromises, in this case noise vs. long exposure blur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Vongries Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Off topic, Franz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Off topic, Franz. Is there any rule for going off-topic, especially for the OP? And BTW, among others we're discussing HDR vs. single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Is there any rule for going off-topic, especially for the OP? And BTW, among others we're discussing HDR vs. single shot. Why don't you give some counter-argument to people's reasoning for why a separate HDR forum is in fact a good idea. I think people are going off-topic is because they are exhausted of the original discussion material without any good counter-argument from your end. In threads that remain on-topic, I have usually seen that the OP steers the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Why don't you give some counter-argument to people's reasoning for why a separate HDR forum is in fact a good idea. I think people are going off-topic is because they are exhausted of the original discussion material without any good counter-argument from your end. In threads that remain on-topic, I have usually seen that the OP steers the discussion. I think that topic is dead, just like the issue of personal attacks is not being addressed. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supriyo Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Whatever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Vongries Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Personal attack? Where? Show me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Personal attack? Where? Show me. Just recently I showed you one thread. You can find many more if you care to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Vongries Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Not here - one thread does not transfer to another. Games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 This image is a composite of 5 separate images, stacked in "Starry Landscape," then tone-mapped with AuroraHD. As above, each exposure was 10 seconds, ISO 800 @ f/2.4. There is much less random noise. There would be less yet if I included a dark frame or two. I may be stretching the connection with HDR, but they share the process of stacking and tone-mapping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) Not here - one thread does not transfer to another. Games. Oh come on, Sandy! I am not playing games and you know exactly what and who I'm talking about. Edited August 22, 2018 by frans_waterlander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 I may be stretching the connection with HDR, but they share the process of stacking and tone-mapping. Yes, you're stretching way, way too far away from HDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Why not show us what you do with HDR? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moving On Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Yes. Post ‘em. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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