Using lens aperture ring with D300

[ben_hutcherson]

Yup I want a fix physical ring. The label on the ring not on the display only. Don't make variable aperture lenses. In fact in the old days (70's) variable aperture lenses were not popular.

For a new system, starting from scratch and offer only the good stuff.

 

Granted I wasn't around in those days(I'm 30) but from using a lot of equipment from the 70s, constant aperture zooms seem quite uncommon. You didn't really start getting them until you got into high-end pro zooms in the mid-80s. I had a 24-35mm f/4L in FD mount, for example, along with a Vivitar 35-85mm f/2.8 varifocal(a lens I keep meaning to get in F mount). All my others, though, both Canon branded and 3rd party, were variable aperture. Nikons infamous 43-86mm f/3.5 was fixed aperture, but most other Nikons were variable. I don't know that Nikon had a truly popular one until the now ubiquitous 80-200 f/2.8, and of course the myriad of mid-range f/2.8 zooms that gradually expanded in range to the now standard 24-70.

 

I know that when I was shooting the Canon FD mount, which even in the mid-2000s was of course frozen in the mid-1980s, fixed aperture zooms were considered somewhat exotic.

[BeBu Lamar]

I have quite a few 70-200 range zoom with fixed aperture of f/3.8 or f/4. I think the 35-70 is also a fixed aperture lens as well as the 43-86. All of those are not high quality lenses but they have fixed aperture.

[chulster]

I have quite a few 70-200 range zoom with fixed aperture of f/3.8 or f/4. I think the 35-70 is also a fixed aperture lens as well as the 43-86. All of those are not high quality lenses but they have fixed aperture.

 

Your wording of the last sentence could be better, unless you wanted to start a heated discussion. What you mean is, "Not all of those are high quality lenses..." The original wording implies that there are no high-quality lenses in those categories. ;)

[BeBu Lamar]

Your wording of the last sentence could be better, unless you wanted to start a heated discussion. What you mean is, "Not all of those are high quality lenses..." The original wording implies that there are no high-quality lenses in those categories. ;)

 

You only read the last sentence. I said I have quite a few of the zoom lenses and all of them are not high quality lenses and yet all of them have fixed aperture. I meant to say that even the lenses that I have which are not high quality nor expensive they are fixed aperture because in that era fixed aperture were the norm and not only for the high end like today.

[chulster]

Yes, it's a bad habit of mine, only reading the last sentence of every post. Doesn't do anybody any favors, really.

[ben_hutcherson]

You only read the last sentence. I said I have quite a few of the zoom lenses and all of them are not high quality lenses and yet all of them have fixed aperture. I meant to say that even the lenses that I have which are not high quality nor expensive they are fixed aperture because in that era fixed aperture were the norm and not only for the high end like today.

 

Perhaps with Nikon made lenses, but I'd still argue on the whole that zooms were variable aperture far more often than constant aperture. The camera makers also didn't make that many zooms as compared to primes-that's of course in direct contrast to today where almost every new lens announced is a zoom.

 

Most zooms in the 70s and 80s-even expensive ones-were pretty bad anyway. I've heard the 43-86mm called the reason why photographers hated zoom lenses for years. Of course, I'd also argue that 43-86mm isn't an overly useful zoom range-it basically replaces two primes(50mm and 85mm) and is a fair bit slower than the common primes in that range-the 50mm f/1.4 and 85mm f/2.

 

Of course, zooms are almost always a compromise even though modern ones are pretty darn good. In many cases, they're better than their prime equivalents, although I'd argue that if a prime were made that uses the whole gamut of "magic tricks" as a typical zoom uses now(aspherical elements, loads of ED glass, etc) the prime would likely still outperform. We're just now-on the whole-dealing with primes that are fairly old designs. I don't know that the demand is there to support that, though. Most folks are content with a f/2.8 or f/4 zoom now that we can go to ISO 400 or 800 on most cameras without any appreciable loss in quality and often don't sacrifice much going to 1600 or 3200. VR, of course, helps even more as long as your subject is relatively stationary.

[BeBu Lamar]

Well since I won't be interested in a mirrorless so whatever Nikon comes up with doesn't matter to me. I really want a modern camera with the controls like the old camera yet they are completely electronic. I want an aperture ring with marking in 1/3 stop on the ring. A shutter speed dial with the same marking.

[Sanford]

I don't want to fire up the debate any more, but I always thought the Nikkormat's design of putting the shutter speed control around the lens mount was an excellent idea.

[ben_hutcherson]

I don't want to fire up the debate any more, but I always thought the Nikkormat's design of putting the shutter speed control around the lens mount was an excellent idea.

 

To each his own-I can't stand it :)

 

In fact, the only Nikkormat I use is the EL, which has a conventional shutter speed dial on top.

[Andrew Garrard]

I think I'd missed that feature of the Nikkormat! (Not that I own any Nikon film camera other than the F5, but I'm interested from an academic historical perspective.)

 

BeBu, while I failed over the weekend and have been promising to do this since way before the D850 came out, I really am going to get a feature request list and survey together in the next couple of weeks, so I want to ensure I'm capturing your request properly (unless I manage to forget it, in which case apologies in advance):

1. You want the lenses to have aperture rings, not for the camera to have an aperture control around the lens mount (the alternative we discussed), yes?
   
2. Do you mind where the aperture ring is on the lens? (E.g. for longer lenses, could it be near the focus ring so you can reach it from the standard support position?)
   
3. Do you want a mechanical aperture linkage, or are you happy with "fly by wire"?
   
4. How much of a turn are you envisioning? Let's take the Sigma 85mm Art as an example - it goes from f/1.4 to f/16, I believe (I don't think it reaches f/22). That's 19 clicks on the aperture ring going in thirds, if I can count; plus one, maybe, for auto-aperture (although there's an argument for having the exposure mode control separate so you can jump back and forth more easily). There's a trade-off for how close together clicks are compared with how far you have to turn the dial - something I don't consider to be such a problem with the on-body dials because I can run them down the inside of a digit.
   

[BeBu Lamar]

I think I'd missed that feature of the Nikkormat! (Not that I own any Nikon film camera other than the F5, but I'm interested from an academic historical perspective.)

 

BeBu, while I failed over the weekend and have been promising to do this since way before the D850 came out, I really am going to get a feature request list and survey together in the next couple of weeks, so I want to ensure I'm capturing your request properly (unless I manage to forget it, in which case apologies in advance):

1. You want the lenses to have aperture rings, not for the camera to have an aperture control around the lens mount (the alternative we discussed), yes?
   
2. Do you mind where the aperture ring is on the lens? (E.g. for longer lenses, could it be near the focus ring so you can reach it from the standard support position?)
   
3. Do you want a mechanical aperture linkage, or are you happy with "fly by wire"?
   
4. How much of a turn are you envisioning? Let's take the Sigma 85mm Art as an example - it goes from f/1.4 to f/16, I believe (I don't think it reaches f/22). That's 19 clicks on the aperture ring going in thirds, if I can count; plus one, maybe, for auto-aperture (although there's an argument for having the exposure mode control separate so you can jump back and forth more easily). There's a trade-off for how close together clicks are compared with how far you have to turn the dial - something I don't consider to be such a problem with the on-body dials because I can run them down the inside of a digit.
   

 

1. Yes I want the aperture ring as part of the lens and not on the body. For me there is no way to put it on the body because putting it on the body it would be the same as the command dial but in different location.

2. Of course not and the ring should be where it's best to hold the lens/camera combo. So it would be closer to the body for short lens and further for long lens.

3. I prefer fly by wire system. I like electronically controlled stuff and yet I want the marking in the control and the position of the control indicate the aperture.

4. If they could do it in a 90 degree arc would be best because in that way you can turn the ring from max to min in 1 motion. 180 degree would be plenty of room but I rather have a smaller arc. Before I bought the Df I would prefer an A position on the aperture ring so that with another A position on the shutter speed dial there is no need for the PSAM dial. Initially I dislike the PSAM dial of the Df because it looks ugly and make the controls illogical when the shutter speed is in auto (as in A or P mode). I thought I rather not have P or S mode and just have an A position on the shutter speed dial but I do understand that if Nikon did so they would lose quite a few buyers and thus the price would have to be higher. Using the Df for over 4 years now I started to like it because I can set the shutter speed at the speed I expected to use whenever I switch to manual. I won't have to turn the shutter speed dial a long way either from next to the slowest speed or the fastest speed. I often shoot in A mode and whenever I don't like the exposure indicated by the meter I switch to M (I never use the EC) and having the shutter speed already at or close to the speed I need is nice.

[BeBu Lamar]

To each his own-I can't stand it :)

 

In fact, the only Nikkormat I use is the EL, which has a conventional shutter speed dial on top.

Never have a Nikkormat but I have the Olympus OM-2n and I do hate the shutter speed ring by the lens mount.

[Andrew Garrard]

Thanks, BeBu. I'll try to capture that when I write things up. 90 degrees gives you just under five degrees per click stop - if you say that's workable, I'm not going to argue. :-) I'm assuming the labelling might need to be only on the full stops, though (with markers for the intermediate detents).

[BeBu Lamar]

Andrews!

I really wish that Nikon would come out with a firmware update for all of the cameras with the AI coupling so that whenever you use the aperture ring the display will display in 1/3 stop. I know it only need firmware because if you put the camera in A mode and set the aperture ring in between stops you would see the shutter speed change. Just the aperture display doesn't change.

[Andrew Garrard]

I'll add that to the list too, BeBu. Although presumably there are detents only at whole stops, so anything in between is going to be a bit approximate!

[BeBu Lamar]

I'll add that to the list too, BeBu. Although presumably there are detents only at whole stops, so anything in between is going to be a bit approximate!

It's not approximate because as I watch the shutter speed changes it changes very linearly to the movement of the ring. Obviously the camera knows that the aperture has changed by the 1/3 stop and changes the shutter speed accordingly.

[Dieter Schaefer]

It's not approximate because as I watch the shutter speed changes it changes very linearly to the movement of the ring. Obviously the camera knows that the aperture has changed by the 1/3 stop and changes the shutter speed accordingly.

The Ai follower tab moves continuously and hence its output could be used to set an electronically controlled aperture. Certainly a solution to make Ai and Ai-S lenses work - and one that would need to be bypassed for the new lenses with an electronic aperture ring. Why anyone would want to have an aperture ring on the lens nowadays is beyond me though.

[BeBu Lamar]

The Ai follower tab moves continuously and hence its output could be used to set an electronically controlled aperture. Certainly a solution to make Ai and Ai-S lenses work - and one that would need to be bypassed for the new lenses with an electronic aperture ring. Why anyone would want to have an aperture ring on the lens nowadays is beyond me though.

While I love them counting wheels on instrument like radio, a power supply,frequency generator etc.. I hate them on cameras. They are incremental encoder and I prefer absolute encoder type for camera controls.

[Dieter Schaefer]

They are incremental encoder and I prefer absolute encoder type for camera controls.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. But except for location, there is no technical difference between a control wheel on the camera and a 'by wire" electronic control by an "aperture" ring on the lens.

 

For a while, I used adapted M-mount lenses on a Sony A7. These lenses have an aperture ring up front - and I can hardly imagine a worse location for it.

 

Has anyone ever made an aperture ring that clicks at 1/3 stop increments? "Best" I've seen is 1/2 stops - aside from the occasional detent away from wide open on some variable aperture zoom lenses.

[Andrew Garrard]

Sorry, by "approximate" I meant "difficult to hit accurately at speed". But without trying it I can't comment on how difficult being precise there would be.

[BeBu Lamar]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. But except for location, there is no technical difference between a control wheel on the camera and a 'by wire" electronic control by an "aperture" ring on the lens.

 

For a while, I used adapted M-mount lenses on a Sony A7. These lenses have an aperture ring up front - and I can hardly imagine a worse location for it.

 

Has anyone ever made an aperture ring that clicks at 1/3 stop increments? "Best" I've seen is 1/2 stops - aside from the occasional detent away from wide open on some variable aperture zoom lenses.

I believe the Fuji X series lenses which have aperture ring can be set in 1/3 stop increment and them too I believe are by wire.

The aperture ring indicate the aperture by its position. The command wheel doesn't indicate the aperture but only increase or decrease the setting. You have to look at the display to see which aperture is set.

[Andrew Garrard]

It looks like you're right, BeBu. The Fuji lenses are labelled in whole stops but click on thirds. I'd kind of like a different strength of click on the whole stops if I were using such a system, and it does hang the people who like half stops out to dry a bit - but you could design the system with configurable clicking (or just do the click artificially, which might be the most cost-effective solution).

 

I knew there was something odd about the Fuji system - I think it was the whole stops on the shutter speed dial with 1/3 stop shifting.