Such a hard decision......

[horace_lai]

<p>My friend is going to Japan and will help me bring back a camera of my choice, so right now I'm just browsing for a new used MF camera on eBay. I currently use a Rolleicord but I am not that impressed by the optical quality. It is however, extremely fun to use which is why I want to try something better.<br>

Unfortunately, there are just way too many choices. I can't even make up my mind for the format I want to get, so I am quite impartial. The photos that I take will be quite varied. I want to do lots of portraits as well as landscapes. Mostly outdoor photography though. Of course I will be limited to photography that does not require quick shots.....that will still be reserved for my digital camera.<br>

I would prefer a camera that can fire a flash, since film speed is quite slow for indoor photography.<br>

I am open to all MF formats.<br>

I do have a weight limit. But I am unsure of the weights of these cameras. Since a lot of these are modular like the RB or RZ's, I guess what you put on it affects the weight a lot. I think my weight limit will be around 2kg for everything I need to shoot.<br>

With that being said, I think my lens will have a focal length of around 80mm, a normal range that is good enough for portraits and landscapes and just regular photography.</p>

<p>I've been reading for weeks now and still cannot narrow it down. I do want to make sure the camera works well with no need for maintenance when I buy it.</p>

[robert_bowring]

<p>Mamiya 6 or Mamiya 7. Both great cameras with really good lenses.</p>

[thomas_k.]

<p>There are not many cameras that are of the size and weight of your Rolleicord, RB or RZ is much bigger. Why not get a Rolleiflex with better 80mm lens on it? Personally I have no complains about my Rolleicord's lens quality.</p>

[dave_s]

<p>+1 Rolleiflex, provided you don't need to change lenses or film holders.</p>

<p>If you're unhappy with the results from your Rolleicord, it's probably for one of three reasons:<br>

(i) your camera needs a CLA, and the viewing and taking lenses are not matched for focal plane (common)<br>

(ii) you have a very old 'Cord with a triplet lens (a Triotar), or<br>

(iii) you're shooting with the aperture wide open.</p>

<p>FWIW, your Rolleicord weighs about 940g and a Rolleiflex 1120g. A Mamiya RZ with one rollfilm back and a 110mm normal lens weighs 2500g. </p>

[SCL]

<p>Get a Rolleiflex...few photographers ever regret this choice. You may need to have it CLA'd to put it in perfect working condition and alignment. I had one in poor shape years ago, and rather than pay a rather stiff price to have the CLA done and the lens repolished, I sold it and used the proceeds to get a Yashicamat 124G (terrific camera) in like new condition and a Ricoh Diacord with cash left over. Both worked great, but in the end I kept the Ricoh (I liked the way it focused) and sold the Yashica, never regretted my decision. As far as lens quality, I doubt you can beat the Rolleiflex when it comes to critical output, especially if you are doing exhibit size enlargements. I saw some of Vivian Maier's Rolleiflex pictures professionally printed about 3x4 ft in size and was really impressed.</p><div></div>

[User_6502147]

<p>I think Yashi 124G properly CLA'd, or perhaps Minolta Autocord, would be excellent choices. My 2 cents.</p>

<p>Les</p>

[horace_lai]

<p>I forgot to mention earlier. I am not very happy with the dim viewfinder in my Rolleicord. I know there are ways to modify this but I would just prefer to upgrade to a unit that is professionally CLA'd and has a bright viewfinder.<br>

Of all the cameras mentioned, I guess only the Yashi, and the Mamiya 6/7 have an inbuilt meter?<br>

How would optical clarity results differ between the Yashi, Minolta, and Rolleiflex?</p>

[jim_momary]

<p>The Yashicamat 124 was introduced in 1968, if the meter works at all I'd serioulsy doubt its accuracy anymore (~48 yrs old). I have the 124G and while the meter does work, it's not anywhere accurate over the span of light levels. And it is also pretty sluggish too, which I take is characteristic of elderly CdS meters. Having said that, the images it produces are quite decent. </p>

<p>A Mamiya RB67ProS with film back, waist level finder and 90mm lens tips the scale at ~<br>

2.25Kg. But ... the photos produced from the 6x7 negative are wonderful.<br>

Jim</p>

[SCL]

<p>Forget the built-in meters. I know it may be a convenience, but the photocells and electronics age, and they are nowhere near as accurate as a modern hand held one...in fact most of them aren't even as accurate as using the Sunny 16 rule.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>Anyone recommending a CLA really needs to specify who, where and how much for the model in question. Otherwise, what's the point?</p>

[horace_lai]

<p>One of the reasons I'm shying away from a Rolleiflex is that they are quite old. If everything is perfect, perhaps it is an awesome camera. But I am buying this off eBay. I think a camera that is newer would probably be in better condition.<br>

The RB67 is still under consideration from me. The prices are pretty good for these heavy beasts.</p>

[SCL]

<p>I thought you said your friend way bringing you one back from Japan, not Ebay? Anyway - age doesn't equate to condition....that is a function of the care and maintenance as well as the original design and manufacturing tolerances. 80 year old Leicas, with proper care and maintenance work great (my oldest daily user is only 61 years old and my oldest lens for it is only 67 years old) - they look like and work like new...because they have received maintenance and care...and they were far from perfect when I initially scored them. Some of my other cameras from the mid 1950-60s likewise are not only accurate in timings, great in looks, but also butter smooth in action. You can go into any used camera shop and find relatively new cameras....which look great cosmetically but are laden with problems thru misuse, lack of proper maintenance, and carelesness on the part of previous owners. So don't be mislead that age is symptomatic of functionality. If you do buy off Ebay, ask lots of critical questions of the seller and make sure you have return privileges (I've bought and sold cameras on Ebay for over 10 years).</p>

[horace_lai]

<p>The original idea is to buy from ebay Japan and he will bring it back. So it would be a bit of a blind purchase I admit, but the sellers there seem to give a really good description of the condition.</p>

<p>But perhaps it is not such a good idea, since I may not have the luxury to return it on time. I don't know how much it would cost to CLA a camera here but the hourly wage for anything here is very expensive.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p><em>"So don't be mislead that age is symptomatic of functionality."</em><br>

<em><br /></em>Maybe your eBay customers fall for that. BTW, think you mean "indicative" instead of "symptomatic." Even old Leicas succumb to neglect from owners who won't pay for service. They're tough by design but far from immortal. Age-related problems are real and do affect most cameras: dried-up petroleum-based lubricants, decayed light seals, corrosion, frayed or torn shutter curtains, dead electrical circuits. Think you're making the exception into a rule. </p>

[SCL]

<p>Hi C Watson - sarcasm doesn't help Mr. Lai make good decisions. If you carefully reread my age related comments you will see my emphasis on design, care and maintenance. Without to periodic maintenance many of the issues you raised can definitely present themselves - periodic maintenance and care can often prolong the working life of much machinery including cameras. Initial design and tolerances are important as a lack of diligence in these areas typically lead to early failure of components, or at least early wear which tends to throw things out of tolerance. Periodic maintenance reduces the age related issues from suddenly rearing their ugly heads. In a former life as a naval officer, we used the term "preventative maintenance" for a good reason. One thing I have noticed over the last 50 years of working with cameras is that the better designed, better built cameras often are better maintained by their owners, who either recognize and/or appreciate the inherent value of the tool and want it to maintain its economic value or want to ensure it continues to function flawlessly, unlike the much more common consumer who fails to conduct periodic maintenance treating the cameras like other disposable items.</p>

[c_watson1]

<p>Old is still old--design, maintenance, service life notwithstanding. Ideal-typical seldom applies to the world of used cameras. Your rationale doesn't necessary square-up with the current realities of scarce repair services, especially for older gear. I buy the newest film gear I can afford and advise others to do so.<br>

By all means share your abundant experience and list whatever repair shops you've used and found capable of delivering CLAs and repairs on vintage gear. Otherwise...</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>In your situation, and provided an RF-VF camera is compatible with your photography and seeing approach, I wouldn't hesitate opting for a Mamiya 6 and its 75mm (or even 50mm) lens. Both are amongst the finest there is, including pleasure of handling. You will be well within weight limits, small size and can add filters (58mm) and film and still be on the lighter side. The thing to watch is to pick up a clean mint or mint- one, as some used equipment, recent as this one is, is badly handled. If you go this way (about 1000 to 1200$), go easy on the winding lever and assembly (it is tough enough but some people seem to force film movement), as parts for it are hard to find (like most older cameras).</p>

[SCL]

<p>My recent repair work has mostly been on vintage rangefinder bodies and lenses. For Leica gear I've used Don Goldberg (DAG) for years, along with Sherrie Krauter (Golden Touch), and most recently Youxin Ye (YYE Camera) - all very successfully. (I've used others - including Leica NJ and several Chicago shops less successfully). Had outstanding CLA and repair experiences on vintage Nikon gear with Authorized Photo Service in Morton Grove, IL; Mark Hama for TLR work; Ken Oikawa for Canon repairs, and Ken Ruth at Photography on Bald Mountain in CA for special lens work and repairs. There are others I haven't tried, but who come with great reputations and depth of experience - including one of our own on PN, Gus Lazzari at TLC camera. There are plenty of very experienced, well qualified repairpersons out there, they just aren't often in our local camera stores.</p>

[horace_lai]

<p>It seems like they are all American? I am situated in Europe, so it will be quite expensive to ship back and forth.<br>

How much did you pay for these repair services?</p>

[horace_lai]

<p>Some progress: I have ruled out the Mamiya 6 and 7 due to cost and inability to find one locally so I can take a look before buying one. I think the only way I will be able to shell out that much money for a camera is to not buy online. It is a more modern camera but it does seem more fragile compared to these other heavy boxes :)<br>

<br /> I live in the same town as the Hasselblad HQ, so perhaps it might be easier to get service done here. I will have to confirm.<br>

I see 2 Hasselblad 500C on the local listings here for around $650 USD. One with a planar 80 and the other with a sonnar 150, whatever those names mean. This camera seems to be the most robust looking one of all the ones I've seen online.<br>

<br /> Mamiya TLR, Rolleiflex, and RB67 would be around half that price so it is still attractive. The age of the Rolleiflex puts me off a bit though.</p>

<p> </p>

[ondebanks]

<blockquote>

<p>Think you're making the exception into a rule.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It's funny, C - I read Stephen's comment the opposite way to how you did. To me he was saying "You <em>cannot</em> make a rule based simply on age". Which makes sense to me.</p>

[ondebanks]

<blockquote>

<p>The original idea is to buy from ebay Japan and he will bring it back.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Is it that expensive to just ship it from Japan, without involving your friend? I'm also based in Europe and have bought numerous cameras/lenses from Japan via ebay. The quality and value (and sometimes relative scarceness) of the item makes the shipping a reasonable part of the overall cost equation.</p>

<p>Also, I would be concerned that once it is in your friend's hands and still with half the world to traverse to get it to you, the clock is already ticking on whatever "testing period" you have, and furthermore you might not be covered for any impact-related defects you might discover on its arrival to you - the seller could (fairly or not) attribute this to your friend's travels, whereas at least you have some cover with insured post from Japan.</p>

 

[rajmohan.]

<p>Hi Horace<br>

Just my two cent's worth here, based on my foray into MF. My first MF camera was a Yashica-Mat (1960s), which I had overhauled by Mark Hama. Light, easy to use and excellent results. I then got a hankering for more TLRs and bought Rolleiflexes (3.5 and 2.8, both of 1950s vintage) and a Voigtlaender Superb; the latter is very old (1933) and although beautifully engineered and well cared for, it's not an easy or quick tool (dim focusing screen being a major issue; the uncoated lens also produces softish results, which I quite like) The Rollei 3.5 was serviced by Harry Fleenor in CA, and is very smooth. The 2.8 was stored indoors, unused, in a clean environment for many years when I got it. To be honest, it is only a little les smooth than the just-serviced 3.5, and the results from both are fantastic!<br>

I also have a Bronica RF645 (1990s), which is a fabulous camera - light, relatively small, beautiful large VF and RF patch, which I bought after finding the Mamiya 6 (my favored model) to be too expensive. The results from this camera are also wonderful.<br>

Perhaps I've been lucky, but my MF cameras spanning 1930s-1990s are good performers. The Bronica is the easiest to use - fast, relatively unobtrusive, metered and with a choice of 3 lenses, but it is getting more expensive by the day. And to be honest, it is not built as solidly as the Rolleis, and I wonder if it will stand the test of time as well.<br>

I agree with others here that all of these cameras, just like all machines, will need periodic servicing/maintenance for optimal performance, and you might like to budget for a service when you do receive the tool you eventually choose. Good luck!</p>

 

[jaydann_walker]

<p>Can you live with the 645 format? If yes, go Fuji.</p>

<p>I do tend to go on about the Fuji cameras, but as the gods know, they are supremely good value in today's ridiculously hyperinflated camera markets. </p>

<p>From 20+ years of personal experience, I've found that any camera made by Fuji produces superb results if maintained properly and not damaged. The latter refers to the GA models which have autofocus which always seemed somewhat flimsy to be, but I have to say my two autofocus GAs have never broken down or given me any grief. With a little care in using these cameras, superb results are easy to achieve. Good 645 negatives easily print to 11x14" (probably bigger, but that happens to be the largest prints I've made in my home darkroom from my GA645wi negatives). </p>

<p>The Fuji GAs are excellent value nowadays, and not old equipment. A good one properly maintained and used with reasonable care, will last you a long time. The GS models (which are not not autofocus) are somewhat cheaper, but much older, and may require maintenance in the shorter term. I've never used one, but a friend who did, told me he thought they were somewhat flimsy (as in "plasticky") and rather too light for his tastes. </p>

<p>There are also other Fuji cameras in other sizes. The 6x7 models are also good value. </p>

<p>Many Japanese sellers have GAs and GSs. They tend to describe items very accurately, ship promptly, and are always charmingly polite to deal with. Never any problems. I have bought many items from Japan, and have always been happy with what I have received. Very refreshing after having to put up with years of "service with a snarl" attitudes from most Australian retail photo shops (not all, there are one or two good ones). </p>

<p>JD, somewhere in Sarawak</p>

[rajmohan.]

<p><strong>JayDann</strong> - thanks for your perspective on Fuji. Have you used any of the 6x7 models, and if so, which one do you prefer?<br>

Thanks!</p>