New film shooter

[graham_meehan]

<p>So Ive been shooting for a couple of years now with a d5200 and I picked up a Pentax k1000 for $15 the other day. I was looking up film developing and such. Everytime I googled anything this forum was always somewhere on the first page. Seems pretty simple, but I had a few questions.</p>

<ol>

<li>Is there any tricks to B&W developing? From whatever Ive read its fairly straight forward, but was wondering if the forums vast experience had any tips?</li>

<li>A lot of people say using the Sunny16 rule ISO 400 is a good all around ISO but figuring that Im going o use it for street photography so Ill be out when its nicer generally I was thinking 200 ISO may give me for aperture and shutter speed play</li>

<li>After research I hear a lot about 4 films, Ilford HP5+ ; Ilford Delta Pro ; Kodak Tri X ; Kodak TMax. Are any of these good to both learn shooting AND developing? Such as forgiving in exposure, bath times, etc. I heard that TMax can be finicky to develop as well as it can be a bit tricky to get highlights right. Im a bit of a Kodak fanboy growing up not far from Rochester but Im not married to them. Any other suggestions for a beginner film shooter and , more so, developer?</li>

<li>I was looking at a list of tools. This included graduated cylinder, thermometer, reel, developing tank, hanging clips, changing bag and consumables. Anything else?</li>

<li>Ive got a nice little kit built out on B&H and was looking at timers. Is there any reason I need to spend over $100 on a fancy one or would a decent quality one, say $30-$40, work just as well. I was even considering using my phone</li>

<li>What are my options with developed film. Scanning, printing etc? Anything I should now or am not asking about film developing?</li>

</ol>

<p>Sorry If it seems like a lot but I figured better than starting a bunch of different threads.</p>

[glen_h]

<p>Many people are closing darkrooms, so used equipment is very reasonably priced. Down to $0.</p>

<p>One choice is film developing and scanning, then digital printing. You don't mention enlarger, so maybe that is what you want. Look at Craigslist or Freecycle for low or free supplies. </p>

<p>No, you don't need a fancy timer. If you do enlarging, you need one that can switch the enlarger power, but even then $100 is a little high. The developemnt timer I have is, I believe, commonly used as a lab timer, looks like a kitchen timer, but can time three events. A phone timer should be fine. Either a simple LCD time or phone can be put inside a plastic bag. (I am not sure is capacitive sense touch pads work though plastic. Test for that.) You don't want to splash chemicals on an expensive phone.</p>

<p>As well as I know, the films you mention are about as forgiving in exposure and development. </p>

<p>The secret is being clean. Don't contaminate the chemicals, especially keep fixer and stop bath out of the developer. Also, keep developer bottles sealed when not in use to keep air out. Either squeeze the air out or fill with marbles to keep air out. </p>

<p>After use, wash all the parts (tank, graduates, thermometers, stir sticks) well and let dry. Chemicals will show up on surfaces when they dry. </p>

<p>I started when I was nine years old, doing developing in the bathroom. Sink is convenient for rinses. You don't say where you will be working. </p>

<p>Printing is fun, too. Then you need an enlarger, safelight and trays, and more space.</p>

[graham_meehan]

I planned on using my studio

space, my bathrooms really small.

I'll just throw some seamless

under my workspace. As for

enlarges and scanners I was

thinking.of a scanner, just not

sure yet. I'll have to look into

them,

[Jochen_S]

<p>Clothes pins and a bit of wire make suficiently decent hanging clips. IMHO most important: 2 <em>different</em> funnels; one for fixer & stop the other for developer. Also important: containers for the chemicals. - I used brown glass bottles for my developer and filled them up with Tetenal Protectan (canned heavy gas meant to squeeze oxygen out of the bottles.) - Something for fixer and reusable stop baths is also important to grab. - Nonfood plastic bottles from anywhere?<br>

Timers: I liked a talking one from the electronics store. we won a few ebay auctions for cheap due to it. -Look up the developing times you are aiming for. the longer they get the simpler a timer is fine. - I did 22 & 45 minutes (HP5 in Microphen 1+3) with a simple cooking timer, mechanical ringing after 4 or 60 minutes depending how far you wind it up. <br>

For heavy film shooting and longer developing times or even low room temperatures the Jobo processors might be nice to have. I could do 5 rolls at once with my CP-E2. - The "OMG, real photography!"-magic is wearing out quickly when its just about agitating that darn tank every minute while you are watching TV. Its more convenient to keep an eye on the timer and listen to the rattling Jobo.. but yes of course the water bath will get algae populated etc, so for just a few odd rolls hand processing can't be too bad either.<br>

Id go for Delta or T-Max whatever is cheaper for you, with 35mm.<br>

Scanning B&W negs sucks IMHO. You'll capture all the dirt on them and are there scanners at all left on the market? - Epson V-series for 35mm?? - Darkroom printing isn't cheap (paper prices doubled) or less time consuming but maybe more fun. - For digitizing DSLRing the negatives might work well enough. - Here I have a Minolta Dimage 5400 (discontinued!) that takes 15min per insane-res color scan with digital ICE. - B&W would still be 7.5 min scan + maybe 2.5 min prep time. <br>

(I'm currently out of the darkroom stuff but should pick it up again, to make room for beer or such in my fridge.)</p>

[graham_meehan]

I was looking at a plustek 8200.

Read quite a few decent things

about them and it's not

incredibly expensive, still take

me a few months to save up for

[Colin O]

<p>Just a link, which may be useful and which you may have already come across:<br>

<a href="http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/16/film-how-to-develop-scan-and-print-with-no-darkroom-required-by-max-marinucci/">

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/16/film-how-to-develop-scan-and-print-with-no-darkroom-required-by-max-marinucci/</a></p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Graham, I started developing myself some months ago, and I still feels a sense of joy when I see the tiny inversed images come out. I do not shoot high volumes, so the magic keeps working. Well worth it to me :-)</p>

<p>To get started, I simply got a starter kit from an online shop specialising in film/chemistry, with the developing tank, measuring cups etc. I added a changing bag (as I have no darkroom, and to load film into the tank, the changing bag works great). Basically, the kit included everything needed - most online specialist shops have such offer. The timer is very simple, but it's OK so far. The only things I needed to add from a normal convenience store: scissors, and a beer bottle opener.<br>

I checked a good number of youtube videos showing film development. It just gives a good idea of the hands-on activity. Once I received all the kit, I practised with a roll of (expired supercheap colour) film to load the film into the development tank. Experienced users here probably forgot, as it is like riding a bike - but yes, it takes a bit of practise. So you need one roll at least to play in full light to get the hang of things.</p>

<p>To get started I experimented with a number of different films, but I'm now down to two (ISO100 and ISO400), and aiming to simply get good at this. If I'd cut back to one film, it would be an ISO400 film, as it's more flexible than ISO100. Your list lacks one prime candidate to get started: Kodak Tri-X 400. It would in fact be my choice (= it is). As a developer, Tri-X works in nearly everything, but if you prefer Kodak products, my choice would be (and is) HC110 as it is easy to prepare, easy to store and cheap. Alternative would be Rodinal (R09 One Shot), which for me also works perfectly fine with Tri-X. These are liquid developers, which you just mix to use once; easier than powder developers where you have to make stock solutions (which expire), and then down to working solutions. For what it's worth, my choice for ISO100 is Ilford Delta 100, but as said, starting out with just one film to reduce your variables isn't a bad idea, and Tri-X should do the trick perfectly fine - and it's generally cheaper too.</p>

<p>As noted above, I do not have a dark room (yet?), so instead I scan and print on an inktjet. For a scanner, the Plustek is a nice choice; I've got a similar one, sold as Pacific Images Primefilm 7200 in the US, which is about the same price (but add $80 for VueScan software!). The scans from it are ~14MP resolution, enough to print fairly large. The Epson V-series can be made to work fine too (there are numerous threads on it recently, with examples), but they're not cheaper. However, if you think you may get Medium Format gear too, it may be better to go for an Epson. Dust is indeed a nuisance for scanning B&W, but add a pair of soft cotton gloves and you can avoid a lot of that too.</p>

[AJG]

<p>+1 for Kodak Tri-X and HC-110, a great and relatively forgiving combination. Getting a few rolls of outdated film to practice on is also a smart idea--I teach a beginning photo class at a community college, and the thing my students struggle with the most is getting film out of the cartridge and onto the reel. When you mess up loading practice film (the edges get chewed up and won't load properly even in the hands of a master) get another roll to try. Make sure you feel confident with loading before you try a roll of film that you care about, and good luck. Come back and show us some results when you have them!</p>

[rossb]

<p>Well you should go over to B/W film processing forum and read the thread that I started (B/W just starting out). I basically went from a newb to developing B/W at home.<br>

<br /> Basically I wound up spending about $150.00 for chemicals and a Paterson 4 tank. I bought a cooking timer at Target for about $5.00, a 1 liter measuring cup and some plastic bottles to hold the chemicals in. Apparently cooking thermometer's are not very accurate so you probably should buy a photographic thermometer. I bought one at BHPhoto for just about $20.00. The Paterson tank is really nice. Easy to get the film on inside of the changing bag and easy to work with when developing. The lid is hard to press on but you figure out how to do that quickly. <br /> I would recommend watching the you-tube video with a kid named Matt Day and he walks you through the film developing process. It is simple enough.<br>

<br /> Chemicals that I bought with no knowledge of what to buy.<br /> Illford ID 11 developer/powder and requires mixing<br /> Illfostop/liquid use after the developer<br /> Kodak professional fixer/powder and requires mixing. It made me couch even wearing a mask so I am buying Illford fixer in a liquid next time.<br /> Kodak photoflo for the final rinse out. It's a liquid and I put 5ml in a liter of water for the final wash to keep the film from spotting as it dries. <br /> I use clothespin to hang the film on a hanger from the shower curtain rod.<br>

<br /> Film that I have tried. <br /> Illford 100 Delta, T-grain has a low grain look and is very sharp, scans great. I found that it is hard to shoot because of the film speed. <br /> Illford Delta 400, T-grain and has more grain then 100 but not to much at all. Actually perfect to my taste, Sharp and contrasty film and it scans great. This is the film I am going to call my main film.<br /> Illford HP5, it's seems to be very popular on the net and it's is supposed to be almost like Kodak Tri-X. It has more grain and is not as sharp or contrasty as Delta 400 but very nice overall. I think HP5 and Tri-X are very popular.</p>

<p>On the scanner thing I have a Plustek 7600i SE and it scans very nice. It sat for a few years as I used to shoot color before processing died out around here. The Silverfast software from my scanner will not work with my current computer and I think it's because it's 32bits and my computer is 64bits. Not sure really. Right now I am using Silverfast 8.8 on a free trial and it works real nice. When my trial is over I am going to just buy it someplace. <br /> <br /> Hope I helped out a little. Anyway it's not hard to process. My first time was a bit shaky but after that it was easy. I just finished my 5th roll last night and it went smooth, not a single spilled drop and it was all just awesome. I am going to stay with the hobby for the long run. It's fun, the results are fun and it's nice to be doing something different then the average person out there. I even bought a patch for my camera bag. "In Grain we Trust" and it has a roll of film on the patch also. </p>

[Bill Bowes]

<p>Hello everyone. Graham you have a great camera to start with. My K1000's have been going strong since the late 70's. The built in metering should keep you in the ball park for exposures. Change the batteries monthly.<br /> Pick one (1) film and one (1) developer to start. I am a fan of 400 & 100 Tmax films in 135 format. Go with the 400 to start. Start with one shot developers to begin with. D-76 or Rodinal are ez to handle and give repeatable results. Alkaline fixer with water as a stop bath...don't get conned into any form of acid here.<br /> When you can achieve repeatable results, then consider changing film/developer, not till then.<br /> Get a 450 ml Nikor stainless steel tank and the reel(s) needed. If you develop just one roll at a time, space the reel into the tank center. Use the same quanity of developer for each roll. If 5ml = 1 roll of 135-36, put 10ml into the tank if you do 2 rolls.<br /> I have included a picture of an Igloo cooler system I have used for ages. Bottles are recycled soft drink, 970ml for the large, 570 ml for the small (Dev & Fix) Cheap and neat. Hang your film in a steamed up shower after a photo-flo rinse (DI water & about 1ml photo-flo max), 3 min soak). This set up uses an Ilford archival wash system and my negs are perfect 30+ years now. Print File sleeves to store the negs.<br /> Scanning is easy. I have the V600 and V800 machines from Epson. No complaints in 5+ years. Editor software has many raves and grumbles, I use PhotoScape, a freely distributed software on the net (do send a donation if it works for you.) and my everyday laptop. I "proof" my b/w at Costco and am now planning on a b/w with custom, archival b/w inks only.<br /> Best advise? Keep you little grey cells open and Enjoy, Aloha, Bill</p><div></div>

[ciaran_mcmenemy]

<p>Here's my input. Might seem like a lot but I'll say everything you need to know.<br>

You'll need a changing bag, tank, reels, developer, thermometer, fixer, three jugs (at least one with a mL guide), and some pegs. I've got this red octopus thing from IKEA (this goes to EVERYONE, take a look at 'pressa hanging dryer', you can thank me later). The clothes pegs (two of them) go on the bottom of the hanging strip. Without them, it curls up as it dries. A dial thermometer works great (think round face with a metal probe going down. I think it's called 'chef thermometer'), my digital thermometer often blanks out. A container (e.g. washing up bowl) is useful for holding water that is a specific temperature. Also, a bottle (I use an old juice bottle) for holding fixer solution.<br>

Scanning: don't bother so much with gloves. A major source of irritation is the white hairs they leave. I use an Epson V550, which cost me £170 (that's $240 to you). Can scan two strips of 135 a time, be it negative or positive. Also 120 film, mounted slides, and polaroid. Software works great.<br>

The MOST important thing is to have routine, a method, that you just <em>know</em>. The post after this is my explanation.<br /><br />Developer: there are 'fine' developers and 'high acutance' developers. If you want smoothness with little grain then use the former. Sharpness and more grain, use the latter. <br />I use Ilfosol-3 to develop. I can use it at a ratio of 1+14. That means 1 part developer to 14 parts water. I need 375ml for one 35mm film. 375/15 is 25. So I need 25ml dev and 350 ml water. I-3 comes in 500ml bottles; 500/25 = 20. That means I can do 20 individual rolls of 35mm film. <br /><em>Massivedevchart is what you NEED to use when it comes to developing times, chemicals, and info</em>. <br>

How about re-using developer? I've done it before. The key is to be quick, since it will oxidise. I developed some Foma in I-3, then took it and washed it, leaving the dev in the tank. In darkness of course. I had a reel of more Foma ready, so that went in and developing resumed. Meanwhile the other Foma was rinsed enough that no more developing could occur. After rinsing the second, I fixed them simultaneously.<em><br /></em><br>

I've tried D-76 and I'm not impressed. The ratio is 1+1 usually which means it doesn't last long. <br />For fixer, use Ilford Rapid Fixer. I mixed a solution last April and it's been in a bottle since. Still works!<br>

Help winding the film to the reel: when you finish a roll of film in the camera, rewind it until you hear the click. Take it out and leave the leader sticking out. When you wind it on, just pull the leader, snip it so it can be square. Keep winding and snip it at the end. How easy! If you've reloaded the film into the can, then (in the changing bag of course) prise the seal open with your thumbs. It's easy to find the leader. Pull it out, push down the opening, and repeat as normal. <br />Using a plastic 'Paterson' reel? Do NOT let it get wet. EVER. the film will infuriatingly become stuck. You feel resistance and keep winding it. When you have developed the film, the edges will have scratches and some frames may have small 'folds', if that's the word. These bits won't have developed properly and lead to white streaks on the scan. <br />120 film is super-easy to load, if it's new. Old 120 is a bitch and you'll find it easily escapes from the reel slots. If you get frustrated, then (in the bag): let the film roll up, put it in the tank, close the lid. That's light-tight so you can take your hands outta the bag.</p>

<p>Now for some extremely useful advice. Pushing! Say you have Tri-X that's 400, but you want to use it as 3200. Easy! Just take the pictures with the camera set to that ISO. Looking at the chart of TX400 for I-3,<em> http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=Tri-X+400&Developer=Ilfosol+3&mdc=Search&TempUnits=C</em> the time is 12 min for 400 ISO, using 1+14 dilution. Now the rule is, multiply the time required by 1.5 for every stop increase (the opposite is true too: 'pulling'. but why waste fast film?). So 400 > 800 > 1600 > 3200 that's a three-stop increase. 12 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 that's 12 * 1.5^3 = 40.5 (40 min and 30 sec). Woah! That is gonna take ages.<br /><br />Remember that temperature affects the rate of development. Using this <em>http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?doc=timetemp </em>I find that with a temperature of 30'C development will take about 15 minutes instead of 40.5. Much better! But, you'll need to pre-soak the film with 30'C water to get it and the tank to tamp. Also, immerse it in a sink or container filled with 30'C water to maintain that temperature.<br /> Disadvantage? Mainly that the emulsion goes soft at that temperature. Touch it with a finger and it will smear. I try to stay below 28'C. When I wash it after development, I use progressively cooler water until I hit 20'C. Then it's back to normal. <br />Pushing film is useful, so useful, for 120. I despise how slow it is! </p>

<p><br /><br /></p>

<p> </p>

[ciaran_mcmenemy]

<p>My general method is <br />1) put the tank and reels in a changing bag, and wind on the film, in the tank it goes. <br /> 2) pre-wet film if I need the temp to be something other than 20, or in case it's hot or cold around. If you're using 30'C developer and the room temperature is 23'C, then when you add the developer to an unwarmed (i.e. 23'C) tank, the liquid will be cooled down. Since warmer developer means shorter developing time with the same image result, you would develop it as if it was 30'C, but since the temp dropped your image would be underdeveloped.<br /> 3) Mix the developer. If I'm carefree I will mix a jug of 20'C water, then put the right amount of developer in another jug, and add the water to it. Else, I will measure the temperature of the developer first and adjust the water temp to be added to offset it. 20'C is not the target, it is an ideal. Don't worry about being over (just not too under).<br /> 4)get rid of any water in the tank. (if used!), developer goes in. Agitate first 30 sec, then 3 agitations every 30 second period, excluding the exact end of development. <br /> 5) down the sink goes the developer. With pre-prepared water, rinse it repeatedly. Pour in, shake slightly, pour out, repeat.<br /> 6) in with the fixer. <br /> 7) after 5 mins you can open the tank, grab the reel, and inspect the film. A kinda milky grey means it's not fixed, so put it back in with no harm done. The film should have a transparent quality to it, with some tint. E.g. Fomapan 400 I developed has a light blue/purple tint. Before fixing, it was grey.<br /> 8) Return the fixer to the bottle and rinse the reel. I take the film off and rinse it with the shower, low heat and low strength.<br /> 9) hang up to dry. Some people use photoflo. I wonder if it's good??????</p>

[ciaran_mcmenemy]

<p>Oops, I forgot. For the timer I just use the stopwatch on my phone. You can use an actual watch, but it's better to have something that you can see right in front of you. Also, touchscreen as opposed to pressing buttons.<br />Just don't get it wet. My phone inadvertently fell into a jug of fixer. Woops! I immediately wiped it, took out the battery, and left it on a radiator briefly. After a bit of coaxing it switched on later. The lens had droplets inside, so I left it with some rice around that area overnight. Fixed! Perhaps the silver has boosted the performance due to the improved conductivity. Ha ha!<br>

Who cares what film you use? They're not that different. If I saw a bunch of photos all from different films, I wouldn't know what rolls they came from. Expired black and white is quite alright, since there's only one layer that can degrade (in contrast to colour, which has three layers...). Interesting point: I developed some films with Jessops, they are Tri-x 400, 20-exp, that expired in the 80s. Loss of contrast. I had one roll left, which I developed myself. Every picture is fine! I will show you a photo from that roll. People seem to be scared of grain, but you should embrace it. Grain gives the picture feeling, a quality, it makes it <em>real</em>. Smooth images? Just use a damn DSLR. <br>

I used some 'China Lucky' SHD 100 and the film has no frame markings. Almost all films do, however. <br />You'll find that every roll you develop represents a certain time period in your life. You'll enjoy this~~~</p><div></div>

[robert_hill11]

For C41 I use the ANOVA water heater to keep my water bath

at the right temp...bout $120 used on ebay...works great!