Details on how flash sync works

[westphoto]

<p>I was (am) trying to get myself set up to be able to do off-camera flash. I'm using an AE-1, and a... Phoenix ZIF 92N flash (if anyone has a manual or anything for this guy, hook me up). The flash doesn't have any sort of sync port, so I grabbed what I figured would work in the Pixel TF-321 on Amazon. After failed attempts and reading a bit more closely it appears that this will only sync <strong>out</strong> the PC port, not <strong>in</strong>, so it can't be used as a remote trigger.</p>

<p>Could someone please explain how a PC port/cable works? My understanding is that an external flash goes off when the side contact and the center contact on the bottom are shorted together. I was assuming that a PC port was just an extension of the camera's center hotshoe contact and the hotshoe sides, but my multimeter isn't showing continuity between the center of the hotshoe and PC port. To further confuse me, I can put the flash on the hotshoe of the camera and trigger it through the PC port using my Sekonic L-308S, further cementing the apparently incorrect notion that the centers of the hotshoe and PC port are the same thing electrically.</p>

<p>Other than the general operation of a PC port, does anyone know how this Pixel guy can signal out but not in through the PC port? If there's a diode in there, I'd be happy to break in and throw that out.</p>

<p>Someone please fill this apparently-not-as-clever-as-he-thought guy in.</p>

[jcuknz]

<p>I don't know what an AE1 is but when I wanted to use an off camera flash with triggering with an optical trigger connected to its sync cord [ or base of flash unit] I simply masked off the on-board flash so that only enough light escaped to work the trigger and not affect the subject. </p><div></div>

[Jochen_S]

<p>From my limited understanding a Hotshoe or PC port get triggered i.e. shortcircuit the PC cable or flash during shutter actuation, usually when the 1st curtain opened entirely or on an elderly leaf shutter when it is open on X sync, before it opens on M sync. I have no clue how your Canon is wired, internally. - What I know from own frustrating experience: PC connectors are anything but electrically reliable!<br>

To sync external flashes either get some optical slave triggers x< 6Euro with shipping from China or Metz' old highly sensitive one or go the radio slave line (no recommendations) and if you really want to use PC cables to sync multiple flashes: Take your key chain out whenever you moved your lights and make sure every flash does really fire. - I used multi socket connectors and not all sockets worked and its really a waste of film to rely on the buggers with an SLR...<br>

If freestyle wiring is an option for you as multimeter owner <em>electrically skilled enough to avoid shocks form flash capacitors(!)</em> go for anything else than PC cables; just take precaution that nobody will pull the camera of your desk by tripping over a connected wire. </p>

[westphoto]

This is my first time trying out sync cables. What makes

PC cables so unreliable? Is it just that they don't click on

well and get loose, or is there something electrically

unreliable about them? I was planning on zip tying the

cable to whichever adapter I end up using, and then the

PC port on the AE-1 is in a place that I can easily keep it

secure by hand.

[SCL]

<p>Chris - The cables aren't unreliable, but thru use the slip-on type connectors can easily loosen; the cables themselves often aren't heavy duty and thru continued twisting can become fragile. OTOH, if you get a good set and take care of them, they can last a very long time....I'm still using 2nd hand ones I bought over 20 years ago with no problems. Long cables (I've used some 20ft long) directly wired (not remotely triggered) via plugs to the synch port on the camera are a real pain, in that they seem to always be in the way. In the last year or 2 I've occasionally used a RC remote camera trigger without issue, but my flashes have always been directly connected to the synch on the camera. Nikon has used a screw-on synch cable for a number of years. My Canon T90 (FD body) has a hot shoe on top, but no synch outlet, so I just slip on a Nikon AS15 hot shoe to flash synch adapter and use it with any of my off body flashes.</p>

[jcuknz]

<p>I used flash with sync cables professionally for a few years back in the fifties but when I tried to use more than one unit the results were un reliable.<br /> What I showed above is old technology for me now that I have YoungNuo units with their built in triggers but the principle of using the partly masked on-board as master remains my basic and simple operating system.<br /> Searching for a photo of an A1 camera I found this<br /> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=A1+camera&biw=1160&bih=632&tbm=isch&imgil=ShgXgvPfJ9eIkM%253A%253Ba8K8m4o4GbhF2M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Flewiscollard.com%25252Fcameras%25252Fcanon-a-1%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ShgXgvPfJ9eIkM%253A%252Ca8K8m4o4GbhF2M%252C_&usg=__jabXeqkVSA5EZP89NeV0MgnVhVQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwihlMHDla3KAhWEE5QKHWMXDM4QyjcIMQ&ei=M5uZVuGuJYSn0ATjrrDwDA#imgrc=mx_E0W5CHX8t8M%3A&usg=__jabXeqkVSA5EZP89NeV0MgnVhVQ%3D<br /> And it looks as if what these days is called a PC port above and to the right of the lens looking from the front<br /> But if it is not then there is the simple way of setting the camera to a half or one second exposure and manually triggering the flash as I did some years back with the guy in the hat giving us a count down to his triggering his flash set-up.</p>

<p>edit .. and if you have a small flash which can sit on the camera it could work the same way as the on-board with my digital cameras, But if the A1 is a film camera until you learn about guide numbers and relate that to your flash you are going to waste a lot of film/money.</p><div></div>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I use the PC sync cord a lot and never had problems with them. They are in my opinion more reliable than either optical or radio slave triggering with the inconvenience of the cord. I checked several cameras and the center contact of the hot shoe is not connected to center contact of the PC port. It appears that they use 2 switches that are activated at the same time when the shutter is fully opened. <br>

As for the TF-321 I thin the problem is the same. If you mount it on the camera and then mount a flash on top it will trigger the flash or you connect a flash to the PC port on the TF0-321 it also trigger that flash but no you can not fire the flash on the hot shoe by shorting the PC port contact together. I also appears to have 2 switches and being a new device I would think the switching devices are solid state like an SCR.</p>

[westphoto]

So the main goal here is to get my flash (no sync ports

or optical) to sync with the camera (hot shoe and PC

port) off-camera. I was thinking the hot shoe and PC

port of devices were just analogs of one another, but

that appears to not be the case. I'll assume this adapter

just isn't going to work. If anyone has any more info on

how those systems play together, or if the two signal

pins are just separate contacts that would connect at

the same time, I'd love to hear it.

[Jochen_S]

<p>I suppose the adapter you bought is more complicated than we expected. - Since it is made for DSLRs and seems working to connect both ETTL and manual flashes to the camera it might be urged to delay triggering the dumb flashes for an instant, since DSLRs use a pre-flash for measuring that would make dumb flashes useless / exposure irrelevant, when triggered for example optically.<br>

Here I have an Hama Adapter with short PC cord and hotshoe (I used it to trigger hotshoe flashes on old cameras with only PC sockets on their lens shutters or via adapter on M3). - Maybe you'll find something like it on Amazon and also a PC extension cord?<br />My rant above was just about the connector quality I encountered. The cords work well enough with on camera flashes but with dragging cables along they seem to get challenged or wear out. - Bending the connectors gently with some pliers might refurbish them (but be careful not to break the plug) Thats why I recommend checking any complicated setup for functionality. A wise wedding photographer suggested routine checking if your flash sync still works each time you reload a trusty camera. - My M3 needed a sync contacts repair. I also recall having reliability issues with some Metz SCA foot on Pentax. A journalist advised to always carry a spare sync cable.</p>

[AJG]

<p>Take a look at Flash Zebra--they sell a lot of PC cords, optical slaves and other related flash accessories. From your description, a simple hot shoe to PC converter attached to your flash along with a cord from that adapter to your camera should do the job, and those cords can come in different lengths so that you can get the distance from camera to flash that you need. As to the reliability of PC connections, this is not a triumph of industrial design. When I shot weddings I used to come to the job with 3 on camera flash units and at least 5 or 6 sync cords that I had tested the day before the shoot. I never needed all of those, but I frequently had to switch out a cord during the day even though I was very careful about buying good quality cords and taking care of them. A PC tip conditioner from Paramount (B&H and others carry them) is also a worthwhile investment.</p>

[westphoto]

<p>Yeah, Flash Zebra looks to have exactly what I'm looking for. I'd also seen the LumoPro Universal Hot Shoe Adapter, but I'm doing my best to find something on Amazon (gift card). I found <a href="http://www.amazon.com/iParaAiluRy-Viltrox-Adapter-Wireless-Flashgun/dp/B00PZAWROW/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1452895516&sr=8-7&keywords=remote+flash+adapter">this guy</a> that I'm going to give a shot. It seems to be what I'm looking for, although the engrish is just fantastic. "Base on the photoelectric principle". I love that XD Can't tell if it's intended only as an optical slave, or if that PC can be used as the trigger. I may just play it safe and get the LumoPro or Flash Zebra solution to save some headache.</p>

[AJG]

<p>If you're going to fire a flash off camera with an optical slave, you still need a flash synced to the camera to fire in order to fire the off camera flash. Since your AE1 (the 1980's Canon film camera, I assume?) doesn't have a built in flash of its own, you need a flash directly attached to your hot shoe or PC connection that will fire when you take a picture. The light from the camera connected flash will trigger the off camera flash via its optical slave. If you only want an off camera flash to go off, then you need either a sync cord or radio triggers. The really cheap radio triggers can have some reliability issues, although YMMV. I use Cyber Sync triggers from Paul C. Buff/White Lightning which work well and reliably, but you'd be into close to $200 to get set up for what you want.</p>

[westphoto]

Yeah, I have no intentions of firing it optically

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I think the one on Amazon won't work for you. </p>

[westphoto]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I managed to kludge

together a wiring setup, so I'm capable now. Just need

to get the proper solution sometime before this fails me.

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I tested an adapter similar to the Flash Zebra except it has a pig tail cord instead of a PC socket. I bought it at local camera shop for something like $10. It works fine with my Canon AE-1 and the Canon 177A flash. I put a pc cord extension in the middle. But since you wants to find something on Amazon I have no idea. </p>

[westphoto]

I don't think there's anything to be had on Amazon. I'll

just have to get it somewhere else

[steven_clark]

<p>Hot shoe to PC adapters do exist, and are relatively cheap, as you are discovering. Also Vivitar's 283 and 285 flashes had a detachable flash sensor and an extension cord for it with a hotshoe. This way you could pull the autoflash sensor off the flash, hook it to the extension on the camera's hot shoe and plug the other end into the flash which you could put wherever.</p>

[jim_momary]

<p>Chris -</p>

<p>Canon, Nikon or other will work with a Nikon SC-17 cable. One of the more useful things available on ebay for off camera with older bodies. Plug it into your hotshoe, put the flash on the other end of the cable, and yer good to go. You can also daisy chain 3 units together to get longer reach.<br>

Discussion - http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/008mhJ<br>

and<br>

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/05/lighting-tip-neuter-your-sc-17.html<br>

I have a couple and still use them every so often with various older strobes and bodies. Also the SC-29 (pricey) adds a sensor at the end of the cable that points in the same direction as the strobe for ttl.<br>

SC-17 prices on ebay average ~ $ 15 to 20.</p>

<p>Jim</p>

[michael_darnton2]

<p>The device you bought on Amazon is for converting a camera to take a PC fitting when it doesn't already have one. Notice that there's no contact in the middle of the shoe receptacle on top for the flash, so there's no connection to be made there. Your AE-1 does, however, have the PC plug fitting you need, on that end of things.<br>

<br /> You need this one on the bottom of the flash to give you a cord to plug into the camera: http://www.amazon.com/ZUMA-Shoe-inch-Male-Cord/dp/B00XII97N2 . The place the cord from the flash plugs in is behind the plastic cover near your left hand fingertip, on the camera's front, towards the top. The cover probably screws off. If you want to get farther away, you need a PC extension, male to female cord--something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Extension-Cable-meters-Female/dp/B00XIMQJTI<br /> <br /> So, summary: adapter with missing cable on bottom of flash > extension cable to camera > camera PC socket on front.<br /> <br /> Another approach is to buy a radio trigger, something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Neewer-Wireless-Speedlite-Receiver-Universal/dp/B00A47U22U One piece fits under the flash, the other in the camera's hot shoe, and they talk to each other by radio. That's how I do it----no cords to trip over, and cheaper, too.</p>

<p>Cheap flash optical slave triggers seem horribly unreliable these days--I stopped trying to find one that worked well, and I only work in a relatively small dark room--not a hard job. I tried several, and even just looking in the front window I saw the "eye" part variously aimed, so I just don't thing the Chinese are up to that particular job, for whatever reason.</p>

[jcuknz]

<p>Since you seem to be running around in circle I will repeat what I said early and Andrew wrote that the simplest way is to have a flash on the camera triggered by the camera ... but where I diverge is that I know, becuase it is how I have worked, that partly masking the flash on the camera is quite reasonably way to go.<br>

Just becuase you have spent hours and money on the false track of cables doesn't mean that optical triggering is wrong.<br>

But I would repeat my warning about chewing up a lot of film/money if you do not understand how flash relates to film and unlike digital you cannot fiddle with settings until you get it right. Flash is boh the simplest way to take photos and hardest particularly with film and getting the thing to work mechanically is the very first small step.</p>

[westphoto]

Sorry, I haven't run any circles. Everyone else seems to

want to do so, though

[steven_clark]

<p>Manual flash is really, really complicated; and pretty much suitable only for studio work. If you want flash that looks more natural use a bounce flash where it still has it's own sensor and you just set aperture on the camera. If you decide to go manual you'll need a flash exposure meter and to know how to use it so you don't waste film. There just aren't enough iterations available on a roll of film, and the feedback loop is too long, for you to just stumble on correct exposure,</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>The OP has a flash meter and with a flash meter manual flash is much more of a sure thing than auto flash even with TTL.</p>

[michael_darnton2]

<p>"Manual flash is really, really complicated; and pretty much suitable only for studio work."<br /> <br /> HA HA. Tell that to those of us who started with flashbulbs. Manual flash is easy, and with meters, which I didn't have, it's even easier. How much simpler does it get than having a light that does exactly the same every time you use is, regardless of time of day or season? :-)</p>

<p>Sadly, "really hard" has become equivalent with having to know what you're doing instead of just pushing a button. . . . in virtually every facet of life.</p>