Mystery lens haze on Elmar 50mm f2.8

[alex_downes]

Hello i wonder if anyone can help identify this mystery haze on a leica elmar 50mm lens that I managed to get dirt cheap <$50 so it

doesnt matter if its dead. To me, it looks like haze, can this just be removed with some namptha or 70% isopropyl? I found a youtube

video that shows how to get to the front element. Or is this something more permanant? Whatever it is, what are my options?

 

http://picpaste.com/image-NdnF0rVm.jpg<div></div>

[SCL]

<p>That doesn't look like haze of any sort to me...more like either heavy cleaning marks or heavy fungus. For $50, I'd give a light cleaning a try, but don't use 70% isopropanyl, get some 90% at your local drugstore or Walmart. The 79% has too much water content. And don't scrub, you'll destroy any coating and possibly microscratch the lens.</p>

[User_4754088]

<p>Looks fungusie to me. Not sure about that lens, but in a few I've tried to clean over the years from fungus, I found the fungus had actually etched or eaten into the surface of the lens or coatings, and even though I could kill and remove the fungus, the lens was still not useable.</p>

 

[GlennS]

<p>If it's not too far gone these folks might be able to help. --> http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro.html<br>

Lots of luck.<br>

</p>

 

[ulrik]

<p>Good luck with removing it. It does neither look like fungus nor like haze to me. If you do not succeed you will have at least a lens with plenty of the famous "Leica glow".<br>

Ulrik</p>

[ken_jeanette1]

<p>Looks like age related haze to me. Should be able to remove it IMO. Clean gently. But keep in mind no matter what you do, you probably can't make it worse. I've gone so far as to remove the front element, and using a rock polish slurry in my palm, been able to remove some nasty cleaning marks, and the lens still came up taking great photos. Maybe a little extra "glow", but perfectly acceptable.</p>

[Robin Smith]

<p>Looks pretty bad. Possibly a bit of solvent will remove it, otherwise it will need professional polishing and recoating.</p>

[steve_bellayr]

<p>If you can have it cleaned for $100 then that would still make it a good purchase.</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>It's not a mystery, it's a design fault with this lens, which has the aperture between elements 1 and 2 and very close to the back of element 1. Leitz used poor lubricant for the iris diaphragm, if you store a camera and lens pointing upwards, the lubricant gases and deposits on the back of the glass. Damage is very likely to be terminal, only real solution is a replacement front element, if you can still find one.</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<blockquote>

<p>"it's a design fault with this lens, which has the aperture between elements 1 and 2 and very close to the back of element" <em><strong>David B.</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>David is correct & it's not "mystery haze", it's definitely a terminal & common issue for this front element.<br /> When this element gets <strong>frosted</strong> from the out-gas turning acidic, it requires replacement. <br /> John Stelton at <em>Focal Point</em> may still have these front elements for sale (They're not cheap, I last paid him $240 for one).</p>

[james_elwing]

<p>So, Gus and David, is this an exposure to heat and humidity issue where the lube condenses on the glass, and then causes pain, or is it the lube actually breaking down & the breakdown products condensing on the glass. Obviously there are a lot of these lenses still functioning, so in your opinion, is this a risk or an inevitability that can be avoided by reasonable care?<br>

I don't have a 2.8 Elmar, but always wanted one.</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>Gus is the expert repair man, I'm "just" a fairly knowledgeable Leica user of 50 years standing, and I have not seen a chemical analysis of the lubricant, but my best guess would be that its volatility is too low and that it is the lubricant itself which is gassing. A 50mm 2.8 Elmar in great shape is a fabulous lens, but they're awfully hard to find. I would say the only real way to own one of these lenses is to find one which looks crystal clear (which will definitely not be cheap) and then immediately have it cleaned to have the iris diaphragm completely re-lubed. I personally have junked two examples of this lens after they were pronounced hopeless by repairmen in the UK (I was at the time not aware at all of the existence of replacement front elements). If I use an LTM camera, I tend to use either my "good" lens, an f2 Heliar, or a "characterful" lens such as a Canon Serenar or Jupiter 3. For those with short pockets, an Industar 61 LD is also not to be sniffed at.</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>PS: There is a very easy way to get a perfect example of this lens - buy ones of the 1990s re-issues:<br>

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leica-50mm-f2-8-Elmar-M-mint-and-boxed-/151752016123?hash=item23552000fb<br>

but cheap it ain't (although Russian Jupiter 3 lenses have also become more expensive since I bought my two a few years ago).</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>Thanks to <strong><em>David B.</em></strong> for the friendly mention.<br /> Once again David's statement "<em>very close</em>", as it relates to the metal blades being too close to a glass surface as<br /> the migrated lube then turned to acidic contamination; this is the main cause for this <strong>systemic</strong> Elmar f/2.8 issue.</p>

<p>Now if one finds a clean sample, or one that recently had the element replaced (assuming it's been C L A'ed fairly recently to sanitize failing lubricant),<br>

then you'll want to make sure the lens is put-away/stored, with the aperture <strong>set to wide-open</strong> (F/2.8).</p>

[wendell_kelly]

<p>I've had a bit of experience with this problem, particularly with the LTM variant.<br>

The inside surface of the front lens element degrades by pitting and roughening. Not all 50mm f2.8 Elmars but a considerable fraction of them. The problem is irreversible and fatal.<br>

I'm an inorganic chemist and speculate that condensing moisture is leaching soluble components from the glass but I state this without supporting information.<br>

Replacement elements are available from Leitz at a cost considerably less than Gus mentioned when sourced from Focal Point.<br>

Don Goldberg recently repaired several of these lenses (in LTM) for me. The parts cost (read new glass elements from Leitz) was USD$140 if memory serves. He seems to be able to obtain these from Leitz although there may be a wait involved.</p>

<p>Good light all</p>

 

[glen_h]

<p>The AR coating might be sensitive to a variety of chemicals. <br>

The usual one that eats glass is hydrofluoric acid, which could be a breakdown product of some fluorinated oils.<br>

If it is the AR coating, it shouldn't be so hard to remove. Of course the result is a lens without AR coating on the front element, just like they used to make them.</p>

[don_gillette1]

<p>You might take a look at <strong>fedka google it, It might be a lot cheaper to get a Russian copy , I have used them and they are pretty sharp.</strong></p>

[alex_downes]

Thanks for the replys everyone, i recieved the lens in the mail today and it turns out the damage seems to be worse in the

picture than in real life. Stoped down, i think the images should be alright. Only test shots will tell, i'll try it out when i

recieve my new M2 later this week.

 

Regards, Alex

[wendell_kelly]

<p>One of the Elmars that I had repaired, as I received it, had quite a bit more degradation at the outer circumference than at the center.<br>

It was almost useable as a sort of soft-focus lens, sharp stopped down, gauzy wide open.</p>

[james_elwing]

<p>Still better to have it cleaned, even if it works OK. We can always spit on the front element if we want soft focus :-)</p>

[david_fincher1]

<p>The mystery lube Leica using in their lens back in the day was whale oil, per Youxin Ye. That's what caused the problems you see in most of these older lens. My superb 50 f2 DR Summicron suffered from it but not to a great degree in that you couldn't tell much if anything was wrong as it was nearly as sharp and contrasty as my newer Zeiss 50 f2 Planar lens.<br>

<br />I sent it off to Youxin for a cleaning and it's on it's way back. It will be interesting to do another test side by side comparison with it and the Zeiss lens.</p>