William Klein...

[dhbebb]

<p>@ Fred: as you know, I have many times on PN expounded the idea that one should not in judging photographers take much if any notice of self-styled critics, experts and intellectuals but instead take a deep and unprejudiced look at the work itself. I freely admit that, in the case of this thread, I have allowed myself to be influenced by the pronouncements of Eric Kim (partly because some of these chimed with my previous very superficial impression of Klein's work, partly because certain other street photographers, such as the Brit Les McLean, have also formed the same conclusions).<br>

Kim's article contains statements such as the following:<br>

<em>I think one of the things that I love most about him is his “I don’t give a f***” attitude about the way he approached street photography how he did things his own way. He rebelled against many of the contemporary styles of photography during his time, especially that of Henri Cartier-Bresson and other “classic” street photographers.</em><br>

<em>in the spirit of William Klein, I will use obscenities </em><br>

Having viewed as many of Klein's pictures as I have been able to find within a short time and also skimmed through his biography, certain things become apparent. Klein's close-up technique was clearly not fuelled by aggression or a desire for confrontation but instead by a desire to get to the heart of the action and engage with the subject matter, which he seems to have succeeded in doing. Secondly, it becomes clear that Klein possessed a certain measure of street cred by virtue of having grown up in the areas of New York in which he photographed – his motivation seems to have been predominantly to document these, a motivation which one can only applaud.<br>

In terms of working technique, I disagree totally with Kim – Klein is squarely in the tradition of street photography, as exemplified by, among others, Cartier-Bresson. Klein's best pictures, which in my view include, for example, the kids playing with toy guns, are very much in the HCB vein, and many of Klein's pictures evoke HCB, the picture of the Rubenesque dames in the bathhouse even seems to be a tongue-in-cheek recreation of a picture taken by HCB 40 years before. There are other clear parallels between Klein and HCB, for example that they both came from a fine-art background and engaged in street photography not from the standpoint of a normal photojournalist but driven by their own agenda (nostalgia for childhood places in the case of Klein, a search for surrealism and geometrical composition in the case of HCB).<br>

Stylistically, a weakness of Klein's work as a whole seems to me to be his tendency to be distracted by graphic or abstract compositions which, while interesting in their own terms, detract from the coherence of his body of work as documentary. He has nonetheless created a large number of striking and influential images, which I readily acknowledge. Having reviewed my position, I now see no justification in questioning Klein's integrity.<br>

@ Barry - <em>sophomoric</em> - a well-chosen adjective :-)</p>

[Brad_]

>>> But personally I find the articles sophomoric.

 

Barry, I'd probably say not well-seasoned, being around

26 years old and rather new to photography. As you said he's a nice enough guy (I've met him over a

beer in SF). He's the first to admit his limitations with respect to his own work and I suspect his depth

with respect to sp in general.

 

What I admire about Eric is his enthusiasm and hustle, and I'm not using that word pejoratively. A couple years ago he

announced on his sp blog he was quitting his regular job (don't remember what that was, wasn't photography

though) and embarking on a street photography career. Of course many snickered over such a preposterous

proclamation, but today here he is conducting dozens of workshops all over the world and exposing hundreds

of people to the joys of shooting on the street. He gets to travel around the world, meet and instruct enthusiastic

beginning photographers, and likely pulling in six figures in the process. That has brought out a lot of haters, but he just lets that roll off his back. Graciously, too.

 

Yeah, I cringe at some aspects of his writing style (top ten lists, for example), but I give him huge props for

following through on his career change and exposing so many to shooting on the street.

[Norma Desmond]

<p>David, wow, thanks. I really had no idea what the outcome was going to be or what you were going to say. But I certainly appreciate the turnaround as I saw nothing in his work to show the kinds of motives you were originally talking about. Seriously, my hat's off to you for giving the work a more careful look and reconsidering.</p>

<p>You make a really important point about assessing work for ourselves. I am happy to read what critics and others say but try to do so after I've looked as thoroughly as possible at the work itself and, even then, I try to read critics with a balance of deference to their knowledge and experience and healthy skepticism toward what can sometimes be an agenda or hyperbolic reaction. </p>

<p>Several photographers have been questioned and/or maligned recently on PN pages either for their motives or ethics. Motives are really hard to know and ethics are often more complicated than simple. Last week's POTW photographer was pretty nastily accused of ethical violations, Arbus has in another thread in this forum been spoken of rather disparagingly in terms of her photographic ethics, and there have been others. So when I read your passages about Klein, I was kind of at the end of my rope with what seemed like another episode. I am so grateful to you for looking carefully and thinking things through. One of the best experiences I've had recently on PN.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>What I really admire about Eric Kim was the way he handled critiques at a Magnum workshop. And even when one Magnum critic fussed at him for defending his work - which seemed more like nervous chatter than being defensive or trying to justify his choices - he later wrote on his blog that the critic was right and he'd learned to accept critique without being defensive.</p>

<p>And, of course, <a href="http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2014/09/23/15-lessons-david-alan-harvey-taught-street-photography/">he wrote about it</a> in his familiar "Stuff I learned from" format. ;)</p>

<p>Now that I think about it, that's how 1980s conservative columnist Joseph Sobran used to write his columns, mostly when he was out of ideas for columns. He'd write, "Stuff I learned while researching other stuff." Some fellow journalism students and I sent a snarky complaint to the magazine about that. The magazine kept running Sobran's columns. They didn't print our letter.</p>

<p>There's a lesson in that experience too.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Brad, I think I was saying similar about Eric though less articulately than yourself. Yes, his eagerness and commitment are admirable as is his ability to convert that enthusiasm into grounded, organized effort. It will be interesting how his thought process and insights evolve over the next 10 years. Plus...he must have huge frequent flyer miles!!</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"David, wow, thanks. I really had no idea what the outcome was going to be or what you were going to say"</p>

<p>Not sure if I agree></p>

<p>Too many Photographers who do not practice the Art of candid photography....yes, it is a Art, seem to think they have some sort of validity to spout on about it .....because they own a camera.</p>

<p>With respect they are just making noise...little else.</p>

<p>When you want to discuss a genera of photography, with a strong opinion, you really to have at least a limited practical understanding.. opinionated with little understanding of what you talking about is silly Billy stuff.</p>

<p>Amway, Im checking under my bed tonight. there might be a bogey man hiding underneath. Bogey men eat you alive and crunch your bones....best to run away, really fast, and not to engage.</p>

<p>A Tale to Tell.....</p>

<p>"I began tucking him bed... he tells me Dad ,check for monsters under my bed "I look underneath to make him fill secure and see another him, under the bed, staring back at me quivering and whispering...<br>

"Dad , he says"... there's somebody in my bed". </p>

 

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>Not sure if I agree</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Allen, you seem pretty sure that you don't agree. And you seem pretty unwilling to allow someone else to go through a process, a pretty quick one, of learning and understanding. Who's making the noise? The guy who comes along simply to put someone else down, you, or the guy who has an initial gut reaction, then thinks and looks some more and is willing to tell someone else he spoke too soon and changed his mind? I give my respect to David and wish you the best in your utmost clarity about street photography and your unwillingness to allow others a mistake or two. If you don't practice the art of candid photography, you're not allowed an opinion here. Wonderful!</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"I give my respect to David and wish you the best in your utmost clarity about street photography and your unwillingness to allow others a mistake or two. If you don't practice the art of candid photography, you're not allowed an opinion here. Wonderful!"</p>

<p>A strong opinion from a Photographer... should have a understanding of what they are talking about....that simple, Fred. Wonderful indeed to have a understanding of what you are talking about.</p>

<p>Im still trying the understand what Dark Matter is about...when I have some understanding I might have a little opinion...until then I will respect myself not to mouth of what I have little knowledge of.</p>

<p>Because David has had a love in with you does not mean others should not challenge his thoughts.</p>

<p>I think we should have a love in Fred...still challenge your thoughts.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Always enjoy a conversation with you Fred so please do not shy away.</p>

<p>I have a opinion but does not mean it is set in granite. </p>

<p>Its about the sharing of thoughts.</p>

 

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"this would be a surefire recipe for being knifed, beaten, robbed and accused of paedophilia and/or infringement of human rights"</p>

<p>Start with this premise.</p>

<p>Hello Fred. How would you think I would responded?</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Allen, as you know, I rarely enjoy our conversations. David didn't have a love-in with me. I asked him a fairly pointed question. He thought about it some. He looked more at the work he was talking about. He rethought some of the things he originally said and got back to me. THAT'S, IMO, a good conversation. And he earned my respect for rethinking his position.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Its about the sharing of thoughts.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That sounds awfully good now, Allen. After you've already told David and others to keep their mouths shut because they lack the candid street experience that you think they should have before they speak. <br>

<br>

Here's what you said, in case you've forgotten: <em>"</em><em>Too many Photographers who do not practice the Art of candid photography....yes, it is a Art, seem to think they have some sort of validity to spout on about it .....because they own a camera."</em> That's specifically asking people who have no candid photography experience NOT TO SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS. <br>

<br>

Here's my opinion on that. In order to have an opinion on candid street photography, someone needs NO experience on the street. They just need to look, think, and feel. I'd feel like a fool telling people who comment on my portraits that they ought to first go out and shoot portraits before talking about them. It's my experience from listening to some candid street photographers that I'd much prefer to hear what David says (and I don't know what his candid and/or street experience is) and what a lot of inexperienced people say than to listen to some of the more experienced street egoists "spouting off."</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>"this would be a surefire recipe for being knifed, beaten, robbed and accused of paedophilia and/or infringement of human rights"<br /> Hello Fred. How would you think I would responded?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I really don't care in the least how you would have responded. If you'd bother paying attention to the trajectory of the thread, you'd realize that I said I respected David for things he had changed his mind about that I had asked him about specifically, which had nothing to do with being knifed or beaten. Perhaps if you'd been paying attention, you would have agreed that he deserved respect for that, for looking more carefully and for retracting some of the things he'd originally said. Then you might have gone on to question the statement above, which you might have still had a problem with. Instead, you threw the baby out with the bath water and repeated your oft-repeated mantra that people without candid street experience aren't welcome by you to share their opinions here.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>I don't think Street/Candid is all about close and personal....I like this image. Brad Evans does it better.</p>

<p>I generally do more close and personal...sort of seeking humanity.</p>

<p>Anyway.</p><div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>y"our oft-repeated mantra that people without candid street experience aren't welcome by you to share their opinions here"</p>

<p>Actually, Fred I said with strong opinions. Re read. </p>

<p>The poster had strong opinions with little knowledge of what he was talking about.</p>

<p>A big difference from someone seeking to understand. </p>

 

[Allen Herbert]

<p>All are welcome here.</p>

<p>And you Fred.....but there is a honesty in this place.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>If you get a mention.....</p>

[Brad_]

>>> Here's my opinion on that. In order to have an opinion on candid street photography, someone needs

NO experience on the street. <P>

 

They do if they make the proclamations: <P>

 

<i> "If anyone were to behave in the same way today, this would be a

surefire recipe for being knifed, beaten, robbed and accused of paedophilia and/or infringement of human

rights (whether a basis in law exists or not) if the photographer in question should attempt to exploit his/her

work commercially in any way whatsoever." </i> <P>

 

and <i> "in Klein's New York people press themselves up against

the lens, dancing around the photographer, pulling faces, pretending to shoot each other, or the

photographer, with toy guns. It is the kind of photography that is impossible to do today" </i> <P>

 

If someone wanted to find out what it's like to shoot in the street, why would one ask a person who does not engage in

that type of photography. How would a person who owns a camera and mostly shoots landscapes and/or portraits of friends/acquaintances, or sports, or commercial photography have information that would be useful to pass on regarding what it's like shooting on the street?

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>Actually, Fred I said with strong opinions.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Kind of like your own! <br>

<br>

Enough. <br>

<br>

I came into this thread to discuss something David had said and got an intelligent and reasonable response from him. The fact that you can't address that says more about you than about him. </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>And I'm not about to take on the clique. Bye, y'all.</p>

[Brad_]

Expected.

 

It really was a simple question...

[Allen Herbert]

<p>". If anyone were to behave in the same way today, this would be a surefire recipe for being knifed, beaten, robbed and accused of paedophilia and/or infringement of human rights"</p>

<p>This is what David said.</p>

<p>Hello, Fred.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>I came into this thread to discuss something David had said"</p>

<p>That is what he said.</p>

<p>He has been challenged that's what we do Fred...why be upset.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>It was, indeed, an easy question, Brad. And the answer is I think to have made those statements it would be helpful to have either one's own street experience (I don't know how necessary <em>candid</em> street experience would be, which is what Allen keeps repeating, but shooting on the street would certainly help) or a good knowledge of current situations on the street that could come from observing, reading, and talking to photographers. Let's say one was a very experienced street photographer. That wouldn't mean they know what it's like for others and though they may never have had a certain type of scary reaction, others might. So it helps to know a more broad range than just one's own experience in determining the state of street photography relative to being accosted by those out on the street.</p>

<p>But the issue is this. That's not what I was asking David about, those comments you've quoted. I asked him about a particular comment he made about Klein's motives relative to the photos David had looked at. He then answered me and showed me that he had learned something and transformed his opinion of both Klein's motives and photos. I found that refreshing and deserving of respect and told him so. It's telling that those who'd been in conversations with him haven't said a word about it and are now still pouncing on some of his other original statements. I praised David for his specific turnaround in terms of the question I asked and Allen said he disagreed with me. That's because Allen was only paying attention to the things he wanted to quarrel with, as you are, and not even acknowledging that there had been a change of mind and that some degree of accord had been reached.</p>

<p>Basically, I said I respected David for having changed his mind about something specific upon further study and looking. And Allen said he disagreed with me. That seems tone deaf.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>A further thought about the need for street experience in order to understand the types of questions being discussed in this thread, the specific quotes Brad refers to. It can certainly help but it's not necessary, IMO, and in some cases it can actually be detrimental to an understanding of street photography as generally practiced. It can help because it gives one direct experience. It's not necessary because people, through other means, are capable of understanding things they don't experience. That can happen through reading, talking to others, etc. And it can be detrimental because there are some people who are experienced but so myopic that they can't achieve a salient general understanding or they may be so self-involved that they don't realize other street photographers in other places may have very different experiences from them. So they extrapolate from their own experience and assume that any experienced street photographer could never come to the opposite conclusion, and that's simply not the case.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>!" Your consternation at other things he's said is legitimate. But your disagreeing with me for respecting his turnaround on the things he and I were talking about is tone deaf. Your narrow-mindedness and single-mindedness is getting in the way of your even having a clue what I'm upset about".</p>

<p>Fred, the question he posed still needs to be challenged whether he retracts or not. </p>

<p>The question he posed still needs to be challenged.</p>

<p>"narrow-mindedness and single-mindedness is getting in the way of your even having a clue what I'm upset about"".</p>

<p>Street photography is under constant a attack.....</p>

<p>Why, because it reveals as it is. It offers a Truth.</p>

<p>So, any attack by the mindless is a attack on the freedoms of humanity. Us.</p>