New Canon high MP cameras - press release

[bobatkins]

<p>Dave - is your DR statement based on the Chuck Westall interview? I presume nobody has actually done DR measurements on it yet.</p>

<p>I have noticed that there is no mention anywhere of the sensor being anything but a Canon sensor (no mention of Sony). In fact there are comments (Chuck again) that performance should be similar to the 7D MkII because they have the same pixel pitch and use the same (digic 6) processor. That would sort of imply that both cameras use the same technology in their sensors.</p>

<p>The top native ISO of 6400 still doesn't really make sense though if the noise is indeed similar to the 7D MkII. Why limit it (except for the obvious marketing considerations of differentiating it from the 5D MkIII)?</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm waiting for an EOS sensor that gives me the same DR as that of Kodak Ektar 100 film</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Hummm, what is the supposed DR of Ektar 100?</p>

<p>DxO thinks the 6D has 12.1 EVs and the 5D3 11.7 EVs.</p>

[ed_avis2]

<p>There is a firmware hack available for the 5D3 which expands dynamic range greatly by using a different ISO sensitivity for alternate lines of the image: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2072671812/</p>

<p>Clearly that same code won't work on the new 5Ds but it would be interesting to see if Canon have tried something similar. With 50 megapixels of resolution, you could use different ISO for alternate lines, then combine each 2x2 square of pixels into a single output pixel and still have a 12 megapixel output image but with very wide dynamic range. (Or with more clever postprocessing you can make a 50 megapixel output image too.)</p>

 

[Landrum Kelly]

<p>Well, it has 17.85 percent more resolution than the Nikon D800 series, if your lenses can handle it.</p>

<p>Noise? Is there a sample out there shot at ISO 12800? Don't laugh. It might actually perform pretty well at that level, for all I know. That's only seven stops, after all.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>I'm optimistically not reading too much into the Chuck Westfall interview. It's possible that "the same as the 5D3" might mean per-pixel, although I admit (having just had a look) that it doesn't sound like it. I'll await tests, but it's a shame if so. Still, there's some good technology here, so I don't want to sound like I'm dissing Canon (the flicker fixer on the metering - as in the 7D2 - is cool, for example). It's a bit of a shame that the first affordable (ish) DSLR sensor I've seen that could actually capture 8K (the D800 has enough pixels, but not in the right places) only seems to be able to do 1080p30 - but that would be a big jump. Maybe in the next 1Dc - though the drop in the 1Dc price really made me think another 4K body was coming sooner, or the 5Ds would do it. Maybe Canon are just compensating for the GH4, A7S and NX1. I'm interested that Canon basically matched their crop sensor density - one disadvantage of the D800 is that you still get better pixel density from a low-end Nikon crop body, so if you want to use crop mode you're giving something up.<br />

<br />

Ed - yes, Magic Lantern certainly makes Canon bodies more appealing to me, but I'd still kind of rather have the full range available. I have to assume there are some patent issues that are stopping Canon incorporating this technology by now.<br />

<br />

Like Lannie, I'll look forward to seeing actual tests, if only to advise my Canon-shooting friends. Now, about that 5d4...<br />

<br />

Is it me, or is there less enthusiasm for this kind of body than I'd expect? Both here and in the initial comments on dpreview, there's not much in way of "whoo, I must upgrade immediately, go Canon!"</p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Standby for people wheeling out the tired old argument: "It will out-resolve our lenses". </p>

<p>Sigh... people have been saying that since the 11MP Canon 1Ds was released.</p>

[ruben leal]

It's interesting how the new T6s has some features I would expect from the new camera in the 5D series: GPS (while

some consider this a gimmick, it should be useful to locate landscape locations, which it's supposed to be the 5Ds

market), flash radio control (this is a must for wedding photographers, the other main market for the 5Ds).

Any ideas on how is Canon segmenting their markets now? I started a new thread focusing on what the new Rebel may

tell us about Canon's plans for the near future.

[Marcus Ian]

<p>Amazon's product page on the 5Ds and 5Ds R have a bit more information than I though they'd have at this point...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T3ERPT8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00T3ERPT8&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20&linkId=C3LAZKJCU4IRBJUF">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T3ERPT8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00T3ERPT8&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20&linkId=C3LAZKJCU4IRBJUF</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T3ERPT8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00T3ERPT8&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20&linkId=C3LAZKJCU4IRBJUF">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T3ERPT8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00T3ERPT8&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20&linkId=C3LAZKJCU4IRBJUF</a></p>

<p>Of course no specifics on the DR (or lack thereof) issue yet...</p>

[dave404]

<p>Interesting that they do not seem intent on replacing the 5DIII. The ISO is not as wide and the fps is lower. The 50 MP is way to much 99% of the time for me (I still need to hit the delete key more often and clean up my files). </p>

[Robin Smith]

<p>5DS $3,699.00 at B&H - usual 5D series price at introduction I think. It's a lot of money for a camera I have to say, but I suppose at least the image quality in resolution terms will be significantly higher than in the previous model, which was not really the case 5DII to 5DIII.</p>

[Robin Smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Of course, the Nikon crowd were very "we don't really want 36MP" when the D800 was launched, but that's because so many were/are hoping for a direct D700 replacement. I'll look forward to more tomorrow.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew, I sort of get the impression that the high resolution of the D800 series is not as attractive perhaps as one might think, and that many owners think it is just not necessary for most uses, but this may simply be people becoming blasé once it is available (which is bound to happen). Certainly a 50-60MB file is a lot to deal with compared to the current Canon 20-25. These new cameras directly impinge on medium format territory and undercut the market for them.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Back when they didn't have anything more, as I was just converting to digital, so many Nikonistas were saying that a 6MP APS-C was all you needed.<br>

Notwithstanding the 30-60MP nowadays, they did have a point.</p>

<p>I'm happy with my 15MP and 21MP cameras. <br>

The last 'great thing' is so much cheaper, too.</p><div></div>

[alan_bryant1]

<blockquote>

<p>Is it me, or is there less enthusiasm for this kind of body than I'd expect?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm surprised too. It'll probably sell well though. But I'm not going to get one - I need high ISOs more than more I need pixels - I might rent one occasionally.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Standby for people wheeling out the tired old argument: "It will out-resolve our lenses".</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If you look at the sample pictures they posted, it did out-resolve the wide angle lenses on the edges. But not in the center.</p>

[ed_avis2]

<p>If you need high ISO, which gives better results? A 5D3 at ISO 3200 or the 5Ds at ISO 3200, then scaled down in post-processing to the same resolution? It is not clear what is meant when previews say that the high-ISO performance is "worse" than the earlier model. Worse on a pixel-for-pixel basis (which is not really fair), or worse even allowing for the noise-cancelling effect of scaling down an image?</p>

[alan_bryant1]

<p>The 5D3 ISO settings are 100-25,600, with 51,200 and 102,400 available in extended range. I've shot all those settings and I think 51,200 and 102,400 are not useful for much. The pictures are barely good enough to post on Facebook. Even 25,600 is iffy. I find 12,800 good enough for lots of stuff.</p>

<p>If we assume they used the same guidelines for picking the ranges on the 5Ds, then 3200 will be good enough for lots of stuff, 6400 iffy, and 12,800 not useful for much.</p>

<p>But maybe they didn't use the same guidelines. We won't know for sure till someone tests one. But in recent years the trend has been that the highest ISO settings were more for show than actual use.</p>

[Robin Smith]

<p>I agree with you Alan. I very rarely use 12,800 on the 6D and have never used higher. I suspect it will be to all intents and purposes the same for the new 5Ds and probably with same sort of noise characteristics once the differing resolutions are taken into account. Individual pixels may be noisier on the 5Ds, but there are many more of them so when downsampled the image still be as good or perhaps even better?</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>While it won't "outresolve our lenses" it will require better technique to fully extract all the information the sensor is capable of recording. That's probably one reason why they used a new cam driven mirror system to minimize shutter induced vibrations. Of course the sensor has no higher native linear resolution than the new Rebel T6s and T6i. In fact it's lower. The 5Ds has around 19MP when cropped to APS-C, the new T6 has 24MP. Similar care would be required by T6 owners, but T6 owners are less likely to obsess over image resolution!</p>

<p>Noise is probably higher on a per pixel basis. Canon have commented that the noise should be similar to that of the 7D MkII. That's certainly higher than on the 1Dx. Whether it will be higher if both images are scaled the same remains to be seen.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>It's actually cheaper than I thought it might be - cheaper than the D800e was at launch, in the UK at least. And I'm not sure that this is an indication that they won't replace the 5D3, just that they aren't doing it <i>yet</i>. The time it took Canon to stop prototyping the 5D2 (according to rumours and sample spotting) and actually produce the camera is one reason I switched to Nikon - they don't seem particularly rushed to push out their best technology to customers unless they feel they're losing sales to a competitor. Of course, I don't claim that Nikon would do otherwise, given how long anything resembling a D700 replacement took to appear (though the D810 is an interesting counter-argument). There's a good business reason for this - retooling for a new production run is expensive - but it's frustrating as a user.<br />

<br />

Watching that interview again, I'm less optimistic that the 5Ds will match the 5D3 on a pixel-for-pixel basis, though I expect it to be competitive over the whole sensor. But then, noise response for most sensors is pretty even these days, and you don't lose much to resolution so long as you resize to the same image area. I'm not expecting much better than the 5D3 (based on the D800/D750/D4s progression and how the A7R compares with the A7S) but I'm not expecting a huge gap. Sensors just aren't getting that much better any more.<br />

<br />

Robin: I don't have a huge use for 36MP, although it's not that intimidating, and it doesn't hurt much. It's nice to be able to scroll around an image sometimes, and it makes crop mode more useful. But the jump from the D700 was very significant, and that was well behind the megapixel curve - the 5D3 is less so. The biggest complaint about the D800 was that many would have been happier with a more modest improvement, such as 24MP. Then the D600 came out with crippled autofocus. The D750 helps, but people still complain that there's no true D700 successor. No pleasing some. :-) Anyway, it's true that you feel you're wasting the sensor unless you pay more attention to technique and use good lenses at better apertures. The 5D2 was already much more demanding than the D700; expect a similar rise in expectations with the 5Ds. But Canon have been updating their lens line, so I'd not be too scared unless you have high hopes from, say, a 70-200 f/2.8 IS mk 1...<br />

<br />

While I had minor concerns about my choice of D700 rather than 5D2 (the 5D2's sensor is better than I expected; autofocus, less so) I've had no regrets with the D800, and don't expect to with the D810. But I've always felt that I'm probably not most people, and that the 5D3 was probably the better camera for general use than the D800, even though I didn't want one. It's a closer thing with the D750, although at least that's cheaper. I'll be a little surprised if the 5Ds turns out to be much better for most buyers than a plain 5D3, but if I was any good at predicting market demands I'd be making more money running a company instead of being an engineer.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>At the risk of asking a daft question, why are two of the three sample images from the 5DsR shot at f/11? Consensus from shooting with a D800 vs a D800e has tended to be, I believe, that you lose most of the difference achieved by the low-pass filter removal to the effects of diffraction by somewhere between f/5.6 and f/8. I certainly try to keep below f/7-ish where possible. (I'm not saying that you can't resolve 36MP at f/8, just that the difference between having and not having the low-pass filter goes away.) Surely the f/11 images would have looked identical with a plain 5Ds? (I'm not that blown away by whether the focus was in the right place either, but Nikon's samples have done worse.) The remaining shot (the hippo) is wide open, which does a nice job of showing how good the 500 f/4 USM is, but isn't doing it any favours.<br />

<br />

Also, I only just paid attention, but <i>June</i>? I was expecting a small delay, but that's not too impressive.<br />

<br />

And I'm being down on Canon. Sorry, I'll say nice things or shut up.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>The 5Ds ® have not yet been certified by the FCC to make sure they meet RF emission standards. I'm sure that's not a very quick process, so that may be holding things up a bit.</p>

<p>I'd agree the test shots at f11 don't make a lot of sense if they were trying to demonstrate the resolution of the 5Ds R.</p>

[KenPapai]

<p>This new EOS 50MP 5DS full frame is on my *must* list before 2015 ends, cheers! My 7D though has been flawless (the camera, not me) for five full years.</p>

[don_baccus]

<p>"Interesting that they do not seem intent on replacing the 5DIII."<br>

<br>

The door's open for a 5D4, rumored to be announced later this year. It's pretty obvious both from the specs and from Canon's announcement materials and interviews that they didn't intend that the 5DS be a replacement for the 5D3, but rather a high megapixel alternative for those who feel like they need it.<br>

<br>

I don't at the moment, I'm very happy with my 7D2, but if I choose to get back to selling landscapes in galleries again I would find it very interesting. Canon's typical 11+ stops DR has never felt particularly limiting to me having grown up shooting slide film for publication ...<br>

</p>

[John Crowe]

<p>Wow. Canon has stepped up in a huge and unexpected way for me. I am very excited to match my 17 TS-E to one of these bodies. Although it will be a couple of years before I can justify it. The 11-24 is also extremely intriguing, especially since I can put getting a Nikon 14-24 or Sigma 12-24 on the back burner. Again, it will be awhile before I can afford this lens too. At least Canon has finally made the commitment to providing the kind of tools to enable us to push the envelope of photography.</p>

[dan_south]

<p>Interesting designs. The test shots show amazing resolution. I'm a big fan of the 5D3's autofocus system; I'll assume that the 5DS series is similar.</p>

<p>Dynamic range, high ISO noise, and low ISO shadow noise are often a concern with Canon sensors. We'll have to wait for the test results. The DR of the D8x0 series is impressive and has saved some important shots taken in challenging lighting situations. In most cases, I would prefer to have clean 36MP files over gritty 50MP files. But under the right circumstances, a 5DSR would make my TS-E24 f/3.5L II very, very happy.</p>

[sim_m]

<p>Look at DR here</p>

<p>https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzydoug/16275228787/in/photostream/</p>