Brad_ Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Fred, you missed my point addressing the reality of the situation - no doubt intentionally. The pnet forum dynamic is what it is - I don't expect that to change on its own. Ignoring reality (because old and young people who are hungry can eat at the same McDonalds) and thinking that will somehow attract new and/or younger members, supposedly a major goal, well, that's just wishful thinking and not going to happen. Speaking as an older member - and one with many younger photographer friends who find no interest in pnet discussion groups. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungajim Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>But is it really too much to ask exactly what is going on with PN? Are Glenn, Cara & Jin still alive and well? Why the total and absolute radio silence on whether or not a new website is still being worked on or has been totally abandoned? Are Bob and the other moderators kept in the dark as much as we are? If so, what motivates them to continue? Must be the power, fame and money! When I look at the list of people I follow and see all the talent that has abandoned ship, I want to.....<br> Now here's an idea for the new site. Have a webpage that lists all current paid members. Any paid member could go to the page and put a check mark beside the names of fellow members who annoy them. Then, every month the site could tabulate and publish a list of the 100 most annoying members in sequence by their degree of annoyance. A sure fire traffic builder. But wait, I might rank pretty high(low) on that list. Forget my suggestion. :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonjb Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>I may not be old enough yet to fit in at the breakfast table at McDonald's but I have been around long enough to know that when things are going well and progress toward a stated goal is being achieved, management will invariably keep the rank and file members informed. They will in most cases want to be tooting their horn and bragging and getting everyone hyped up about all the exciting new bells and whistles. When management becomes invisible and unresponsive, you can expect to show up one day and find the windows shuttered and the door locked.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <blockquote> <p>an old mans club, sporting a predictable and cast in concrete ponderous dynamic.</p> </blockquote> <p>Brad, once again, I think when you phrase things like this and you give a +11 to a statement that refers to the frequent "meaningless discussions" in the Philosophy forum, which you did in another thread the other day, you are not talking either about what "the reality" is or the forum dynamic simply being "what it is." You're giving an opinion and your own perspective and it's a put down to a group of people here if not the general population here. I understand you don't see it as a put down, that you think you're describing what is and being objective about it, and that's probably a big part of the problem here, at least as I see it. There is a blindness to the feelings of others that probably happens all over the Internet because we're sitting behind the isolating and anonymous keyboard and not directly facing the people we're belittling. I think your remarks here and elsewhere are hurtful, and that's every bit a reality as the reality of meaningless, ponderous, and set in stone dynamics you are perceiving. IMO, neither is a reality, but rather they are perceptions we each have . . . that differ wildly. And I'd suggest that it's this kind of disrespect for what others are doing here, not just coming from you but probably coming from many of us at times, that is bound to be pushing away at least some of the existing membership as well as potential new membership.</p> <p>As it's this type of back and forth that probably turns off the most people, this will be my last contribution to this thread.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Fred, since you brought up the Philosophy Forum and blindness... I really do think you need to look inward and take some responsibility for your behavior, the oblique backhanded putdowns, and the resulting unwelcoming dynamic. And with that think hard about why there is so little activity there - other than than the very small handful of regulars. From time to time that creeps into the Casual Forum as well. If you believe that does not have a hand in creating an unwelcoming environment to others, especially new/younger potential members, well, we’ll just have to disagree. Perhaps doing the same thing over and over again will have a different outcome for 2015? www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>Brad, I appreciate what you're saying and do think there's some truth to it. With that in mind, for my own sanity as well as for the good of the site, I will refrain from participating in forums for 2015. I seem to to have the most constructive and fruitful interactions in the Critique section of the site, where I can show and discuss my own photography and the photos of others, so that's where I will stay.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungajim Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>Oh Fred, You know you won't be able to resist. We need one sane voice in the forums. :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 <blockquote> <p>I really do think you need to look inward and take some responsibility for your behavior, the oblique backhanded putdowns, and the resulting unwelcoming dynamic.</p> </blockquote> <p>Brad, that could be the most outrageous example of projection that I have ever read.</p> <p>Fred is an art critic, not a PR professional.</p> <p>Fred, don't you dare desert the forums.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrum Kelly Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 <blockquote> <p>When management becomes invisible and unresponsive, you can expect to show up one day and find the windows shuttered and the door locked.</p> </blockquote> <p>Well, all good things must (or at least will) come to an end. I just hope that it isn't too soon. This site is a treasure.</p> <p>--Lannie</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 How dare you all stereotype all old photographers. I am 82. I swim with a competition swim club that has members of all ages. I will swim 2000 yards tonight in a coached rather demanding workout. All ages in our club get along well. My only concession to my age is that I don't wear competition briefs as I don't want scare little children or offend anyone else. I photograph large swim meets. Brad how far can you swim? LOL. I miss a lot of the discussion that used to go on here. It's fun to participate when I can. I have made dozens of friends swimming all of them younger than m except for the few old guys I swim against from other clubs. I am an old military pilot and I love to sit around and BS with old pilots. First liar doesn't have a chance. I love to talk about photography also. Places to do that are few and far between. DPR has a function but it is really gear oriented. They get offended when one tries to talk about actual pictures and the art of photography. This is a privately owned site and I agree with Bob that they can control content. Doing that here seems pointless. My only request here is a plea to stop ageism. Hopefully you will all get there one day if you survive. A lot of my friends haven't. Be kind to your elders. We get lots of people much younger than me in US Masters Swimming. Having studied and participated in organizational development I think there is something amiss in the managment of PN. Entropy is the word. The ROI here must be declining. Maybe we are a tax write-off. Maybe you all could learn something from the oldsters you all know. I am a Viet vet and I have witnessed history repeat itself a couple of time since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaellinder Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 <p>Let's face it; not everyone who posts critiques does so in an eloquent, meaningful way. I too know of at least 2 subscribers whose single-sentence critiques are virtually the same from one occasion to the next. It seems to me that the problem is much akin to determining how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. If it bothered me that much, I'd just press the magic button to block them. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 " It's got to be balanced by a visible presence that shows another side, that models just that kind of community spirit being asked and sometimes demanded of members." I agree with Ellis on this part. Regarding the site and how I use it. I have been around to see it over the long haul. I remain involved and will continue, I but notice with dismay and wonderment that the' holes in the swiss cheese are getting as big as the cheese itself.' I say with no pleasure that it lacks the Red Bull effect it once had....by default of management not a shred of doubt. Not the necessary course of evolution I submit... What else could it be. Correct me if I miss something playing out in the wings....The thing is that there are choices out there in the menu of choices.PN has value and I spend time here daily. Like Dick I am a tribal elder. From what I can observe, the energy, the Red Bull enthsiasm if you will, has been ceded to Facebook pages. I go to FB on OMD camera afficiionados and see tips, discussion and daily showing of images, more than here by far. Way more I observe. Some so so, some brilliant.... And though the sophistication is not always there, the action is and the oomph is. I regret that PN has given up its place at the table or on the stage- to keep the metaphor - by being AWOL by management. Not the moderators, not the old timers...not the pros who have gives us so much here. In the past, And the generosity of spirit by members and moderators. I have no plans to drop this as a daily visit place. But know this if it means anything. I have added the FB Olympus OMD group and Lumix group to my visit list (since I stop at FB daily to see what the grandkids are up to. Really folks, the juice is there on Facebook photo pages like Oly OMD , maybe other venues.... The times they are changin'. Just the way it is. The choo choo moves on in the digital network world and moves fast or you get swept past. We are getting to feel like more and more like the caboose. ( Maybe the dead man switch at the throttle up front? No, that would not be fair of me or accurate). Still, Too bad what we don't see and miss. Doesn't have to be I think. My two kopeks, -all I got these days my photofriends, Aloha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 " Having studied and participated in organizational development I think there is something amiss in the managment of PN. Entropy is the word. The ROI here must be declining. " Right on Dick. I did a bunch of management reviews in my day too. Trouble is finding out who is in charge and who gets paid. One can't run a web site without revenue. Anyone see a balance sheet lately. These discussions on this or that feature are just nibbling at the edges. When the structure is wobbly, it is just wobbly. Are we getting new paid members or losing old ones. Not is the bucket half full or half empty but are there holes in the bucket? Or are we bailing with coconut shells. Patience is nice, but buys nothing at the grocery..... A community at least in this country is entitled to speak affirmatively and without shillyshalling to all echelons of the power structure. And of course be willing to contribute if asked and aside with all piffle about this being a private enterprise. it always was when it was Greenspun blog..... PS: I am a test member it says on my profile ( report spam and some other stuff never materialized) Ready to test out new ideas that the honchos come up with. If I should live that long, ----knock wood and keep up the swimming laps. Off my chest true, but I somehow I don't feel optimistic as I used to. ( Yodeling in the gully, pause, and hearing my own echo not unlike Ellis, Dick and others who care...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charleswood Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 <p>We members have interests, talents, and appreciations that haven't been fully reproduced in younger generations.</p> <p><a href="http://www.edutopia.org/arts-music-curriculum-child-development">http://www.edutopia.org/arts-music-curriculum-child-development</a></p> <blockquote> <p>Arts education has been slipping for more than three decades, the result of tight budgets, an ever-growing list of state mandates that have crammed the classroom curriculum, and a public sense that the arts are lovely but not essential.</p> </blockquote> <p>It isn't that what the site offers isn't valuable. It isn't that this member or that member has deficiencies. Quoting Matt Laur:</p> <blockquote> <p>The people who own it and run it have every right and every reason to decide when and whether someone is using the site in a way that diminishes its purpose.</p> </blockquote> <p>Rephrasing: the people who own this country and run it oh so arrogantly do indeed think that they have every right and every reason to diminish Culture in any way that suits their pecuniary reasons and purposes.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 <blockquote> <p>We members have interests, talents, and appreciations that haven't been fully reproduced in younger generations.</p> </blockquote> <p>And when the "younger generations" come here and see statements like this, it gives them yet another reason to not stay. Telling people they aren't as good as you doesn't really work unless you are trying to build a wall around a shrinking number of people. When one talks about "arrogance," it's important to understand what the word really means.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I was in my last years at the job, announced I am taking retirement. Lovely friend and colleague offered this kind plea, " Gerry you can't, just can't- leave us now, you are our Corporate Memory!." Given that some thought since and there is a grain of truth. Are we not pluralistic in a community sense? Each bringing some cards or gems or historical context. Sure I do remember the irrepressible and scoff a lot Scot, The Twilight Zone do de da personage who create a record of hit and run grades and went by esoteric nom de plume .Z. It took all kinds then and will take all kinds now,no?. I like to think that the welcome mat has never been denied to any one. We are not a dating site. At lest that is how I feel. Not the age but the mileage. Like cars we ripen if cared for.... And the willingness to share from corporate memory in its broadest sense. Embrace of change does not hurt either. I learn from the young as I like to think they learn from us. Is it an old timer's club. Maybe but demographics don't bother me that much. Archimedes was an old man when he was caught scratching lines on the floor. Aristotle also a bearded sage. I still think the younger generations are likely to go where the action is. And that is management's challenge if they seek a broader community. Get busy and create something to attract the Facebook generation, Or not. Arrogance one says? Never could afford it for long myself. Always something new on the road to shake up brain cells. And kick up those right brain cells. Fresh ideas, fresh outlook. Sprouts from all age groups. So I think anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 <p>Gerry, there's definitely a need to look for a broader community. Disrespect and put-downs are not the way to get there. </p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I agree Jeff. We should embrace all who show any interest. Answer beginner questions. Draw new novice shooters with ideas, Help them and give encouragement. And choose our words too with some restraint when we get a bit out of line...which is easy to do online . Avoid appaent overt or subtle prejudice. I am with you on that thought 100%. Your remarks above too.. Some slurs are unintentional or poorly informed. And call for response. And yes we sure could use some more women here I hasten to add....a whole other challenge, Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charleswood Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 <p>Jeff, why not respond to my main point? I'm saying that there aren't numbers for PN among the young. I suggest a reason why. Do you disagree or agree with that point? If it's that you disagree, link to an article or study as I have done to support your point of view. But you didn't respond to my main point. You lectured me about coming off as arrogant to young people. I recognize that you only speak for yourself. Do you?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 <blockquote> <p>Jeff, why not respond to my main point? I'm saying that there aren't numbers for PN among the young. I suggest a reason why. Do you disagree or agree with that point? If it's that you disagree, link to an article or study as I have done to support your point of view.</p> </blockquote> <p>I will respond. I teach kids (mainly 16 to 18 years) Photography. I also have other instructional roles with kids 9 to 18, also with some adults, but those are outside ‘Arts’ Subjects. I have taught / managed a lot of Adults though technological change.</p> <p>The article (Smith 2009) that you cited, is not new; it is not news; and the findings are not exclusively applicable to the USA, either. The diminishing teaching of and the appreciation and understanding for ALL the Arts Subjects is a major concern for many Educators. </p> <p>I agree that there is a lot of talent at Photo.net and I agree that kids (by definition and as a collective noun) cannot realize all that which elders have realized – that’s just common sense.</p> <p>So to answer your main point – I agree.</p> <p>***</p> <p>You also wrote something else which requires comment too: . . . </p> <blockquote> <p><em>[Jeff]</em> lectured me about coming off as arrogant to young people.</p> </blockquote> <p>I didn’t read it that way at all. Jeff quoted the sentence <em>in toto</em> and then commented that a younger person reading that sentence, they would likely be driven away.</p> <p>I agree with that opinion.</p> <p>I note that Jeff's comment was specifically about <strong><em>the words that were used</em></strong> and <em><strong>the structure of the sentence as presented.</strong></em><br> <em><strong> </strong></em><br> The sentence was: “I Focused”; it was “Self Opinionated”; and to a kid wandering through the www, it would come across as arrogant and likely make them shut down and disengage from the conversation. The SUBJECT of the sentence was "the members [here]" and the subordinate clause referred that SUBJECT to younger peoples' inadequate development. </p> <p>For one example, the same message could have been articulated, thus:<br> <em>“There’s a truck load of interesting stuff that any aspiring Photographer could dive into and have fun with here." </em></p> <p>No “I Focus”; not “Self Opinionated” the SUBJECT of this replaceme<em>nt</em> sentence is "the interesting stuff" and the OBJECT is 'any aspiring Photographer - and the ACTIONS (verbs) are "delve" and "have fun with".</p> <p>To a kid, that alternative way of expressing the same passion and point of view, will likely not come to the conclusion that the writer is arrogant or talking down to their youngers – as please note, "age" was not even mentioned to trigger that age synapse trigger of 'us and them'. </p> <blockquote> <p>I recognize that you only speak for yourself. Do you?</p> </blockquote> <p>For the record, Jeff doesn’t speak for me.</p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lookingbill Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 <blockquote> <p>I teach kids (mainly 16 to 18 years) Photography.</p> </blockquote> <p>Have you ever suggested they check out Photonet and if so what did they think of it?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 <blockquote> <p>"Have you ever suggested they check out Photonet and if so what did they think of it?"</p> </blockquote> <p>Yes.</p> <p>I have always made <em><strong>no</strong></em> secret to my Students of the fact that I am a member here. I have taught on and off for several years. Previously, up until about four years ago, the only request of them was if they became members here members here was to not use my Family Name (Surname) or link me to the Studio who employed me at that time - using my Surname could make that link.</p> <p>I know of three who definitely have joined, because they told me they did. But probably all have had a look, that would be a total of about 25 or 30: I don't interrogate "Who has joined?" or "Who has had a look?" so others might have joined, I don't know. But I am fairly confident that all of them would have had a look. I only take two maximum three, students per year for private tuition for their High School Matriculation Exams for entrance into University.</p> <p>I initially point them to the "Learning" Links here. I also recommend that they read the "Cambridge In Colour Tutorials" those are the only two websites (and specifically those two sections in them) that I have mentioned to Students. I am also a member of 'Cambridge in Colour'.</p> <p>I know that amongst the three who did join there are very few questions posted: some have photos in their galleries and have requested critiques.</p> <p>I also don't interrogate Students, such as: "What do you you think of Photo.net?", but when occasionally the conversation has been broached, I am all ears for an opinion. Their response has been basically neutral - neither a positive nor a negative experience, and if anything the comment or nuance of their comment, is that Photo.net is "old fashioned" (a phase used by one) - which I understand to mean (by comparison) that other forms of www social discourse, interaction and learning are more "with-it".</p> <p>I have no reason to believe that any who have spoken to me were addressed rudely or felt demeaned by members here: but, on the other hand the Students of mine comprise only a small sample group and it is my strong opinion that most if not all are quite tough cookies who are used to arduous and forthright debate and each would quickly '<em>dismiss "old fart" style of commentary</em>' by simply ignoring same and without any emotional upheaval to themselves. </p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charleswood Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 <p>I've suggested Photo.net to a handful of younger people and they hadn't heard of it, asked why I didn't use what they did, and I surmised that their needs were being met somewhere else.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Your surmise is certainly correct Charles. I have been following discussions on Facebook groups like this one which pop up like mushrooms in a cow patch after a rain: https://www.facebook.com/groups/482933475079982/ http://www.facebook.com/groups/482933475079982/ Have to say there is a lot ofenergy in the young -and Not So Restless. I don't know about all seniors but I still have a keen interest in the photo world. I hope to go to the ISU stereo conference this Fall. Busan Korea. Gives me tingles to think about it.... Re FB. When I look at the photos, I get really impressed with some of them on FB sites. I only compare with the kind of stasis on PN's Olympus pages. Check also the other mirrorless FB pages like GX7 Lumix fandom one...and they are more than gear oriented per se I hasten to add. Lot of interesting stuff going on. So I add them to my list in addition to this PN site. Why not. A compliment to the faithful torch bearers now as I think that without our colleague Sanford Edelstein, it would be really be Sleepy Hollow in several forums... But I do have to ponder. There is a ton of stuff to kick around and mutually share about the new mirrorless Wi FI connected small Oly and Panny cameras and their creative photo possibilities. ( LIke live development of long exposures in real time...) Did I miss something ? Of course Facebook has the powerful resources and capital to keep things flowing. And the will to spread its hegemony over our lives and the world. And FB is a way station for the world these days, like it or not.. FB can be a noodge at times, a lot of times, and I wonder about sharing and security of info as we all must, but they are gotta say alive, sprited, and show a kind of bonhomie. Oh yes, last thought and I go. I still stand ready to be a "test user"- per my designation as such- when and if anyone decide to call on me to serve. Hanging in there with ayucky sore throat but it is a sunny snow free day in alohaland, gs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 NT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now