chrystal_starr Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 <p>I just made the big move from Michigan to Los Angeles, have finished up my Bachelors in Fine Arts specializing in photography, and ready to pursue my career in a photography related field. Before I left, I made it a point to reach out to people in the area and introduced myself in order to have a small friend base by the time I moved out here. I did some research and messaged a few people on Facebook. I'm very open to people about my career goals and why I chose to make the move out here. One person and I clicked well and he mentioned that he noticed I was into photography and would "love to work with me sometime." I showed him my online website, which clearly outlines my style and shows my session fees.<br><br /> Fast forward to this weekend when that same online friend invited me to a party, which I happily attended and made new friends in the process. But, here's what has been gnawing at me all day:<br><br /> At the party, the date of my new friend approached me and asked, "I hear you're good at photography? Would you be interested in photographing the two of us sometime?" Afraid where this was headed, but unsure what to really say and how to vocalize my prices, I said "yes of course." I asked if they would like to discuss the photoshoot over coffee, (any convo to help bring up my session fees) but she didn't like the idea and just gave me her number, telling me to call her on Monday to discuss further.<br><br /> We've all been here before. Someone approaches you, asks for your services, and never once asks about costs and payment (which is usually the first question people have). So the worst is assumed: They are expecting this for free. Now I'm anxious and don't know what on earth I'm going say! I'm not only asking how to deal with this particular situation, but future ones as well. I've graduated college, I've spent the last year making decent money off my photography as a supplemental income and I know what I'm worth. I'm also confident talking about my business and my prices, but obviously when I'm confronted unexpectedly, I'm at a loss as to what to say to defend myself as an artist. I'm at a point where I will only shoot for free if I feel it will extremely help my portfolio, especially since I've graduated college and moved all the way to one of the biggest city for artists in the world. I'm open to a trade, (once I was willing to trade a photoshoot for French lessons), but again unsure how to put my foot down on this whole situation.<br><br /> Any advise and words of wisdom greatly appreciated! Thank you.</p><p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 <p>I think the easiest way would be to call and says something like "I have to mention - unfortunately I'm not in a position to work without pay" (if necessary wildly exaggerate how broke you are!) UNLESS working for free in this instance makes any kind of sense in terms of building your portfolio and/or gaining access to a certain circle of people (if this latter, arrange that you would work for free only if given unrestricted permission to use the pix to publicise your business). The absolute thing to avoid is working cheap - you make nothing, but your client thinks they're paying and so expects 100% professional service. Better to work for nothing than cheap.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 <p>When those conversations come up, and someone expresses an interest, just be ready with a mix of sincerity and humor, "Wow, it's so nice to run into someone interested in having me do work, without me having to have spent money on marketing to make it happen!" If they don't pick on the key word there ("work"), then you still have another opportunity when they call or write to actually set something up: "I'm so glad you're still interested in putting together a project. I can't wait to get started on the creative part. <em>Nothing</em> gets that working better for me than getting the contract stuff out of the way first. Should I email you something so you can look it over? That way when we get together next time, it'll be all about making great photos instead of rates and paperwork and releases and all that."</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_6502147 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 <p>You don't have to defend yourself....if they are getting paid....so should you. Just put it delicately and that's that.</p> <p>Les</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS1664879711 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 <p>Been there, but I wasn't a "real" pro trying to earn a full-time living from photography. The conversation is difficult no matter. I would always make sure the conversation that leads up to the "further discussion" was obvious that I was trying to start up a part-time business and had to make some money to make ends meet. Try these words, "I'm setting up (or in) business so I can pay my rent and buy food." If you are a full-time, then it is even more imperative to make that clear... especially when solicited by someone who is clearly implying that the job be a freebie. Being open to trade may make that more palatable.</p> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 <p>I don't see anything here where she said she doesn't expect to pay. Why are you assuming that? Call her like she said to. Ask what kind of photos she's looking for, tell her you would be glad to do that, then bring up the matter of your fees. If she says she thought it was free, say "I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding. This is what I do for a living." if she wants to pay, fine, if not fine.<br /><br />There's always the temptation to do some freebies to get your foot in the door in a new area. But there's the risk that once you get branded as free it's harder to get people to pay.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 <blockquote> <p>'I don't see anything here where she said she doesn't expect to pay.'</p> </blockquote> <p>I noticed that but it will not be surprising if it turns out the way. Especially considering the language of being "good at photography" as opposed to a more professional oriented reference such as being a photographer or asking about a studio or something. Nevertheless, the intent here is speculative. I would react normally as though it were a business request and borrow from the buzzword that Matt raised. Namely, to refer to the work literally as "work". Such as asking what sort of work the person has in mind. Don't overdo it but reference the activity that way. Should the expectation turn out be for no pay, the "misunderstanding" will be largely pre-explained on your side. Unfortunately, since your story is that you are merely "ready to pursue my career", some people might not see you in as much as a professional light as they might if you have established some sort of business that you can refer to. When asked about being "good at photography", you will be able to say have a studio or you run a photography business and other obvious 'I'm in business' type references. It won't screen off everyone looking for freebies, but it can set boundaries in the mind of many.<br /><br /></p> <blockquote> <p>'I'm at a point where I will only shoot for free if I feel it will extremely help my portfolio'</p> </blockquote> <p>When it comes to others approaching you with expectations of working for free this makes a lot of sense but, I wouldn't discount a free promotional instance YOU INITIATE and offer to others that do or are likely to hire a photographer(s) and/or refer to you to others that do. You can get your foot in the door and establish yourself as a valued business person that can help them. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etphoto Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 <p>When you make your call, just ask them a simple question. "How much you looking to spend so I can tell you what I have available in that price range?"</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrystal_starr Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 <p>Craig, I like your line: "I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding. This is what I do for a living." if she wants to pay, fine, if not fine. <br> I think that is a good place to start.<br> <br> I also like John's line of: When asked about being "good at photography", you will be able to say have a studio or you run a photography business and other obvious 'I'm in business' type references. It won't screen off everyone looking for freebies, but it can set boundaries in the mind of many.<br />If something like this comes up again, I can simply state, "Yes, as a matter of fact I'm an excellent photographer who owns her own freelance business. What did you have in mind?"<br /><br />Yeah, she never stated she wasn't going to pay, but I've been in these types of situations before to the point where I know when people are expecting a freebie. <br /><br />I'm about to make the call. I'll post an update once I speak with her. Thanks for the response, they have helped!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 <blockquote> <p> "Yes, as a matter of fact I'm an excellent photographer who owns her own freelance business. What did you have in mind?"</p> </blockquote> <p>If people aren't asking about shooting anything they might just be making small talk. I would wait for the 'what did you have in mind' question until shooting something for them becomes a topic of discussion.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Having run my own photo business I know a single customer is not that important unless one needs money to eat. One has to spend time and a lot of marketing effort to get going. It took me awhile to become established. I knocked on doors, joined and haunted the Chamber of Commerce, joined clubs, did a lot of cheap weddings, worked for a newspaper and worked on volunteer civic projects to become known, After some time the referrals started to come to me. No doubt you are highly technically qualified but business comes from marketing skills and a marketing strategy. Today I do a lot of volunteer work for things that I am interested in. It has brought referrals even though I am no longer in active photo business. If I were you I would be honest and say directly that you are getting started in the business and need to charge for work and then ask if they know of someone who might also need your services. I always had an hourly rate so I could quote on the spot. It worked for me.. Lots of people look for free work. If it is a worthwhile project I have sometimes given in. I think done in the right places it could get referrals. I imagine LA is a highly competitive area. You might start as a second shooter for an established photographer. I had a small but well equipped darkroom and studio. I sold almost every customer that walked through door for weddings. I dispayed blow ups of my work and did free portraits when we signed contracts before the events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steen_knarberg Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 <p>I beleive it's very important to charge your customer for the work being done, just like you would do in any other profession. If you don't charge the customer they will think you are not professional and not seriuos abot what you do. Photography is an art and noone is ever the "complete" photographer. By this I mean that you're entitled to a fee just like every other photographer if you and your client fit each others expectations and goals. Antoher thing - if you do not charge your customer you might be the reason why others have a hard time getting paid, because some do photography for free.<br> About bringing this up nicely. The normal prcedure from my point if view is to negotiate a contract before a shoot buy firstsending an offer detailing out what the shoot costs. In theis way your'e not begging but singnaling that you're are businees partner interested in a helping your custimer to even better sales, or what ever the purpose is, through your great work.<br> All the best and good luck - Steen Knarberg, <a href="http://steenknarberg.com">Fotograf</a> in denmark.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Artful photography is wonderful but photographing for money is a business. You please the customer not yourself. When I had my business marketing came first. Processing and delivering product early or on time was important. Above all the product had to satisfy the client. Clent referrals grew my business. And yes I am a competent commercial photograph that can deliver a product. Art is nice but in an of itself, unless you are a lot better than I am, it does not draw many customers. Doing business over lunch is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrystal_starr Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 <p>Well it certainly is a difficult time because I was becoming established back at home... I had to turn down a lot of people because I knew I was moving and couldn't offer my services. Right now though, I'm looking for a full time job as a photo editor or photography assistant on a team because I know I will have to get re-established out here first, before I start actually running a business. I've had three interviews already and it's looking promising. </p> <p>I called the lady yesterday and yes, she was expecting free work. When I apologized for the misunderstanding she said no need and that she completely understood, which was nice. However, it still made me feel guilty afterwards because I don't know if working for free would help open up doors for me or not. In my experience though, once I'm known to do "free" work, people tend to expect that. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Linked-in would be a good start to begin networking and making friends that can help you to get clients or photo type jobs. It's a good way to get your name out and at the very least find some kindred souls. I photograph for a large local sports club for free as I am a member and if I were in business today I could get some work from them. I actually did come out of my retirement to photograph the head of a national olympic committee and family. I don't know what your sub-specialty is, but I found the only way I could achieve cash flow was from weddings. When I got started I deliberately substantially undercut the competition. It worked as did a reputation for two week delivery. Getting weddings ready for delivery that fast was hard work particularly when I did film. Working through a large number digital pictures is also hard work. I also did small weddings off weekends as this was in a town that attracted weddings. I got to know the owner and got exclusivity at a large local inn. I teamed up with a local JOP and got her referrals. I wish you the best and know you will succeed in the long run. I found that establishing rapport with customer like brides and families prior to the wedding made for willing subjects and also made for referrals. I did free work. I do almost all free work now. It does not do ones reputation any harm to shoot wounded warriors for free at their outings for example. It's also gratifying. You can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_renwick Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 <p>How about, "Let's talk and I'll give you a price quote."</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmarchant Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 <blockquote> <p><em>How about, "Let's talk and I'll give you a price quote."</em></p> </blockquote> <p>+1 Short, sweet and too the point.<em><br /></em></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgerber Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 <p>Seems like the ideal situation to hand them a business card or is that not done anymore these days of new-fangled phone apps?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 <p>You could have a "Model Release" in hand, and find the couple. Offer one 5x7 print as a token payment for the release signed and dated. Show them "proofs" on your computer ... small .jpg images.<br> If the couple determines your work is great, have a price list to hand them.</p> <p>Should the couple make a decision to decline your offer, simply reverse your direction and depart the room.</p> <p>Just starting off, you could do the above and gain experience in these types of situations.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmowery Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>The key words that were asked of you were "Would you be interested in photographing the two of us?" They did not say "I would be interested in you photographing the two of us". Right there a flag should have went up and all you would have to say is "Thank you, but I already have pictures of couples in my portfolio" "Now all I need is customers"</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_hugo1 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I'm not trying to put you down, but you did tell people on Facebook and at the party that you wanted to make new friends, except that it seems your real motive is to make money. I think when your actual intention is different than your stated intention, it is quite likely you will find yourself in an awkward situation and there is a high chance that somebody will get offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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