Nikon D750

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Marc M, I'm very happy for you.</p>

<p>But, you're <strong><em>obviously</em></strong> not pushing the imaging envelope....:-)</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Hello, everyone. I go away for a couple of weeks, and everything goes to hell...<br />

<br />

People have been wanting a "D750" for ages. The D800 is actually a lot closer to a D700 successor than many scared off by "I don't want 36MP" would think; the D810 even more so, though I maintain that a "small raw" which was actually useful (enlarged the buffer size rather than reducing it, was significantly smaller than a compressed full resolution file, was editable in-camera, increased the frame rate, was lossless...) would have made a bigger difference. The D600/D610 was obviously a small step back from the D700 in some ways (and a step up in a significant number of others). The gap around the D700 specs is still there, though - like the D300 - the D700 is quite aged technology now. Whether the latest round of rumours are actually based on Nikon's plans or on the dreams of those still wanting a D700 update remains to be seen.<br />

<br />

It doesn't make much sense to me to launch a D750 into what, to me, is quite a small gap between the D610 and D810, especially with the Df kicking about. However, the Df didn't make much sense to me either. Nikon hurt the D3 sales significantly with the D700 (like Shun, I might have bought a D3, but bought a D700, so that's at least two data points), but they had the D3s "get out of jail" update. Given the relatively recent D4s, I'd be surprised if they can do the same trick again, but maybe the D4s sales are dropping. It's true that 8fps and 24MP is quite different from 11fps and 16MP, so maybe there's really enough of a market difference to justify both.<br />

<br />

Nikon have a problem shifting their DX cameras - the shelves are apparently over-stocked with old models. I could kind of see that if Nikon want to introduce new models, they'd do so in the FX space (and this is more a "D800 replacement" if the D810 is the "D800e replacement") - but they'd still have five FX models active (assuming the D3x is RIP), which is a lot.<br />

<br />

Why <i>would</i> Nikon do this? Well, the D700 was a frantic response to the 5D2; the D600 was a response to the 6D. The D800 differed from the 5D3 in roughly the ways the 5D2 differed from the D700 (slower, worse autofocus, higher resolution). Canon haven't responded (yet) to the D800, and Nikon don't really have a 5D3 competitor. An 8fps multicam-3500-based 24MP D750 <i>would</i> be a strong 5D3 competitor, and I guess might take on whatever Canon may be planning with a 6D replacement. Also, if they've got a shutter mechanism that can keep up (and the D810 just got a new shutter mechanism, so maybe it can...) then building a D810 with a D610 sensor(-ish) may not be so challenging. The data rates roughly line up, too. And it <i>would</i> plug the gap for those wanting a faster D810 without the D610 downgrade route, though I'm sure they'd lose some D810 sales in the process.<br />

<br />

But there's very little information even rumoured. Photokina starts in three weeks. It seems extremely unlikely that Nikon would launch such a camera just <i>after</i> Photokina, so I suggest patience, grasshopper. We'll know whether there's any fact to this very soon. The rumour sites often <i>are</i> very accurate - normally around the point that they start saying "tomorrow, Nikon will launch..."<br />

<br />

As for "did Nikon finally get it right..." Well, I own an F5, a D700 and a D800e. At their respective times, they were all very "right", thank you, for what I wanted from them. If you really want a D700 replacement (especially if you'd been using the D700 with a grip) and don't mind the delicacy of a flip-out screen or the likely price, maybe the rumoured D750 is "finally right" for you. Though I think there's been some "not half bad" going on in the meantime. But there really aren't many stinkers out there from any manufacturer, camera wise - I even give grudging respect to the Df and the V-series for some of what they can do. That said, I admit that Nikon have had a few manufacturing issues on a lot of recent cameras - mostly minor. Just as the D700 was mostly a tried-and-tested D700 body with a tried-and-tested D3 sensor, something like the alleged D750 does have a chance of falling in the "nothing new to go wrong" category of reliability. We can hope.</p>

[cc_chang1]

<blockquote>

<p> delicacy of a flip-out screen</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>D5xxx has had it for many many years, and SONY, Olympus, and now Canon also use these. I have not read a single complain on line that these screens are delicate. If any thing, you can flip them in ward to protect the "delicate" screen itself. I would rather suspect that Nikon does not put them in higher end cameras b/c its live view sucks so few will "bother" to discover how useful they are. Or Nikon just wants to sell us the $200 wast level finder from the film days. :)</p>

[tholte]

<p>Marc, I for one have never "easily" got a good quality photo with my existing DSLR but I bet I might with a new D750 if it pops into reality next month at Photinka. </p>

[pics]

<p><strong>"If any thing, you can flip them in ward to protect the "delicate" screen itself. I would rather suspect that Nikon does not put them in higher end cameras b/c its live view sucks so few will "bother" to discover how useful they are. Or Nikon just wants to sell us the $200 wast level finder from the film days. :)"</strong><br>

<strong> </strong><br>

<strong><br /></strong>I don't think Canon or Nikon put flip-up screens on the higher end bodies because it introduces a significant point of failure (structurally and weatherproofing wise) in cameras that have some to be known as bullet-proof tools that a photojournalist can take anywhere. I guess it depends on your shooting style as to whether you find them useful or not. I do understand why some people like them. I'm certainly no war photographer, but I would just assume Nikon leave flip screens off of the pro bodies. Then again, routine $200 repair bills to repair screens that snapped off the body might be enticing for them too!</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>D4S Bulletproof</p>

<p>D750 Consumerproof</p>

<p>Simples...:-)</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>To be fair, I'm just repeating the claims of why the D7000 and above don't have the D5x00 series' flip-out screen. Canon don't seem to have felt a problem in putting a flip screen on the 70D, though the full-frame models notably lack one. (I'm always a little confused about the market positions of the various models; I tend to think of 1200D (Rebel T5) < D3300 < 700D (Rebel T5i) < D5300 < 70D < D7100, but it's not really a solid opinion.)<br />

<br />

The D700 is officially a "professional camera" by at least one of Nikon's measures. The D610 isn't. If a D750 - if one exists - is marketed in the same position as the D700, I'd have thought a flip-out screen was unlikely. But Nikon are allowed to change their minds.<br />

<br />

Would I use a flip-out screen? Probably. I'd certainly like the side effect of the buttons being put where my right hand can reach them. But I have caught myself thinking that, were I to get an RX100 as a pocket camera, I might prefer the mk1 to the mk2 just because it's less likely that I'd get the screen caught on something and mangle the ribbon cable. Probably less an issue with a DSLR, unless my pockets get much bigger.<br />

<br />

A lot of discussion on very little information. I'm happy to speculate based on announcements, and I'm happy to discuss the kind of features that people would like the next camera to have, but I really hope anyone reading this thread realises that there's a massive disclaimer on it that we know nothing (Jon Snow).<br />

<br />

Given that we're getting close to the show, I'm looking forward to seeing what else Nikon may or may not produce - and, for that matter, Canon, who've been very quiet so far. (Not that it seems to hurt their sales.)</p>

[cc_chang1]

<p>There are two things I find myself defending in these on-line forums. One of them is the flip out screen, which I love after using it for the first time on a m4/3 camera, and which Nikon cameras mostly lack. Interestingly this one feature is popular with mirror less camera and its lacking often creates an outcry among mirrorless users. dSLR users, in contrast, do not care about this because they cannot find it to be useful and many think the screen must be flimsy — they are not. Another one is auto-ISO in "manual" mode completed with EC. Here the situation is the reverse as this is found in Nikon's higher end dSLRs, but often lacking in earlier mirrorless cameras. When mostly Nikon and Pentax users requested this, people reacted in amazement because this destroys the purity of the "manual" mode.</p>

<p>The flip out screen is not flimsy, unless someone has statistics in its repair frequencies to prove me wrong. I have not found any complain on line about the screen breaking off. How do you take pictures of toddlers at their eye levels to be more engaging? If you often take pictures of children by shooting down, you need a flip out screen. Not to mention how useful it is for macros, street, and to shoot at any angle you like. Try it guys, especially those old guys like me who cannot bend! You will love it.</p>

 

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Well, it depends how you define "flimsy". The flip-out screen on the back of the Sony RX100-II is attached to a reasonably solid, but flat, bit of metal - but for a camera I'd be putting in a pocket, it's perfectly possible for it to get caught on something and bent, or for something to wedge behind it and damage the ribbon cable. That risk may be outweighed by the utility, but the size of the mechanism simply prevents it form being as robust as most of the rest of the camera.<br />

<br />

Most DSLRs with flip-out screens have the screen more inset into the rear of the camera, reducing the chance of anything getting behind it, and the wiring often goes through a solid pivot (but doesn't always). If the screen is extended, it absolutely is exposed to damage more so than most of the rest of the camera; stowed, probably not so much, and the ability to invert the screen for protection is arguably valuable. My plastic LCD cover does have some scratches, mostly I think from when I've had something like a security badge on and the camera has rubbed against it - an inverting screen may or may not help here. I certainly think flip-out screens are useful. They're robust in storage, at least with DSLR designs. How well I'd expect one to hold together if it was open and fell off a tripod is another matter, but then supposedly the D800 frame is a little prone to cracking under those circumstances anyway. (I'm curious whether the D810 is better.)</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>If the flip-out screen isn't a red-herring, it's a very good way to turn away 'real pros' who feel it's a weakness and need to buy an armoured D4S...</p>

<p>...whereas the prosumer is gentler on their kit and can't afford a D4S.</p>

<p>I've never had a moment's concern for the screens on my D5100 and D5300 and I'll admit to using them both at an airshow, one long lens and one short zoom and dropping them into and getting them out of the camera bag rapidly. They never got caught-up or snagged on anything.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Plus you can use the flip-out screen to support the camera for some extra reach for overhead shots! (Wait, aren't we supposed to do that?)</p>

[cc_chang1]

<blockquote>

<p>" it's perfectly possible for it to get caught on something and bent, or for something to wedge behind it and damage the ribbon cable."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The screen is stiff to pull out and has good resistance when being turned around in use. Furthermore, "normal" people will fold it in before putting it in a bag. It is one simple snap, the same way you would fold your wallet before putting it back into your pocket. For what you said to happen it would be like saying what if people get into the car with an open umbrella. As I said, where is the proof that the screen is prone to breaking in actual use? The mighty D800 is known to have an issue with the lens mount that it breaks when dropped with a lens on it. Just being big and heavy and all metal does not guaranteed anything. You just like to argue, don't you? :)<br>

<br>

The more probable reasons why Nikon has not put more flip out screen in their cameras:<br>

1. To save a few bucks.<br>

2. Many will not use it often b/c Nikon's live view is not so robust to use.<br>

3. Too much trouble to rearrange buttons that are now on the left side of the screen. This is Nikon's favorite side by the way as they seem to like to put new button there. D7100 and on has a new "i" button at the bottom making it even harder to find the ISO button. <br>

<br>

Not only I hope it is true that D750 has a flip out screen, I wish it is state of the art. It should be touch sensitive to make it easy to change settings, zoom in and out, select and change AF points, etc, features that are long available on Canon and Panasonic with a touch screen cameras. Given the current limitation of live view in Nikon's cameras, the lack of a flip out screen is not a deal breaker. However if they put a state of the art screen that makes live view more enjoyable to use, that will be a feature worth bragging about.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>CC - I can vouch only for a brief shop experience where I tested whether an RX100-II would fit in my pocket - and yes, it was closed - and removed it to find a piece of card firmly wedged between the screen and camera body. I don't think I'd damage the hinge (of the RX100-II - I've seen flimsier hinges) that way, but there's an unprotected ribbon cable back there that could easily have been pressed hard against the edge of some cardboard - or worse if I'd had, say, a hotel room card in there. It wouldn't stop me buying an RX100 (if the lens on the -III is as good as rumoured, the price is the thing stopping me), but it would make me more careful with the camera. Is it enough to make the camera fall apart easily? Obviously not. Is it a source of potential weakness not found on cameras without flip-out screens? Yes. It's very hard to argue against the engineering of that statement, but I'm not trying to argue the extent of that weakness.<br />

<br />

The design on most DSLR screens - and of course we have no idea what Nikon may or may not choose to use on a camera that they may or may not be going to make and may or may not call the D750 - includes a sideways twist, unlike the Sony's screen, and manages to protect the edge of the screen somewhat so that it's harder for something to get wedged behind it. You're also less likely to slide a DSLR into a pocket already containing vertically-oriented bits of card and plastic, and I've not seen a DSLR hinge with exposed wiring. So the particular concern I had with the RX100-II isn't likely to be relevant to the D750. What <i>is</i> more likely to be a problem is that there's a relatively small joint with a limited range of movement that may be exposed if the camera takes a tumble, especially with the screen folded out. The joints are necessarily a little hard to weatherproof, too.<br />

<br />

Will it snap if you look at it? No, but the F5 didn't <i>need</i> a titanium prism casing for most use - Nikon high-end cameras are generally engineered to survive careless abuse. (Actually, I thought it was the D800's frame that could crack, but I'm only reporting Thom Hogan, and may have mis-remembered.) And, argumentativeness aside, I agree about weight - I reckon I could drop my plastic 28-80 on the floor and have a reasonable chance of it working; I'd be much less confident with my 200 f/2. While away in Canada, a colleague of mine was trying to put my bag (containing two laptops, a D800E, a 14-24 and a 70-200 f/2.8) on the floor for me so it would be out of the way while we ate, and dropped it from a couple of feet up. I was gibbering for a long time. (Everything seems okay - even though a Think Tank Shape-Shifter isn't all that padded!) If he'd dropped my GF2 in its mini-bag, I'd not have batted an eyelid. Maybe the argument is that a D5300 isn't heavy enough, with the likely lenses attached to it, to break its hinge, but a D7100 might be.<br />

<br />

I wouldn't mind seeing a flip-out screen (though it would probably be more useful on the D810 than a "sports camera"), but Canon and Nikon really don't seem to think pros would like to risk one. Same reason that there's no flash on the 5D3, 1Dx or D4. I don't think they'd worry about the cost on the high-end cameras if there weren't a down side. Not that this has stopped Pentax with their medium format cameras, but I'm not sure I'd ever thought of those as "robust" anyway (even having been hit on the head by my original 645).<br />

<br />

For live view, I haven't really been aware of a problem with the D5x00s - and not really with anything but the D800, whose problems are mostly centred around the sensor read out. (Cameras without separate aperture control do have some issues if you change aperture, but the D8x0 doesn't.) The D810 seems to have solved the line skipping, so I don't see why there should be an issue; I don't think any of the 24MP cameras have had the problem, unless I'm wrong. You seem to be concerned, though - I'd like to know what's still worrying you.<br />

<br />

Redesigning the interface? Well, yes, people would no doubt complain - especially D700 owners. (I'm annoyed enough at the +/- button switch, which you can't reverse in software.) But I've been begging for the controls under my right thumb for years, so I'd like it! The D5x00 has that style of interface.<br />

<br />

Touch screens are a mixed blessing. It would be interesting to see Nikon try this, but they're unlikely to get it perfect on the first attempt. I quite like my GF2's touch screen, but it's nothing like phone quality, On the other hand, a modern capacitive multi-touch screen stops working if you have gloves on or when it gets wet, which are situations in which a high-end camera has to work; they also don't work so well with your eye to the finder, and tend to get a bit smeary. I'd probably sooner see Nikon try this on the "D5400" first.<br />

<br />

As ever, no one-size-fits-all. An FX DSLR with a flip-out screen would be an interesting differentiator, but if Nikon are really after the D700 crowd who weren't tempted by either the D600/D610 or the D800/D810, and who haven't already picked up a D3s or D4, I'd be worried that the picky few would be put off by a screen like this. It's a pretty specific market - and I have to point out that the D810 is a perfectly capable 6fps 25MP camera (trading a reduced sensor area in 1.2x crop for bigger AF coverage), so you'd really need that partial stop of sensitivity and 33% frame rate jump to justify getting rid of the extra 12MP. Which may argue against its existence, or may argue that the camera would have to be differentiated in another way - by flip-out screen or otherwise.<br />

<br />

It's not going to stop the complaints that each higher-end Nikon model isn't a true superset of the functionality of the one below (D3300 aside), though - paying more doesn't get you a universal improvement. Stick a flip-out screen on a D750 and at least some D810 owners are going to be annoyed.</p>

 

[Richard Williams]

<blockquote>

<p>As ever, no one-size-fits-all. An FX DSLR with a flip-out screen would be an interesting differentiator, but if Nikon are really after the D700 crowd who weren't tempted by either the D600/D610 or the D800/D810, and who haven't already picked up a D3s or D4, I'd be worried that the picky few would be put off by a screen like this.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You'd have to be very picky to be put off by a rotating screen, though there are several other ways that you might imagine the bean counters could still mess with the D700 hold-outs. An undersized buffer would do it, or a smaller body with poorer handling, or (my favourite) leaving out the screwdriver AF motor...</p>

<p>Latest rumours are 51 point AF (hardly surprising) and 8fps without a grip (hmm...). Since everyone is saying Photokina, we will at least know if there's any substance to this in a couple of weeks.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<blockquote>

<p>or (my favourite) leaving out the screwdriver AF motor...</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>For an <em><strong>action</strong> </em>camera, you'll be needing to use AF-S lenses or the equivalent names from independent makers...so having a body motor is useless. And do away with that stupid aperture follower tab slot...it's a big gash right past the weatherproof lens mount right into the gizzards of the thing........and just waiting for water and dust ingress.</p>

<p>If you're into AF-D lenses, this camera isn't meant for you....and you'd be far better off with another FX body, with more resolution blah, blah.....</p>

[Richard Williams]

<blockquote>

<p>If you're into AF-D lenses, this camera isn't meant for you....and you'd be far better off with another FX body, with more resolution blah, blah.....</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Of course according to the other thread ( http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00cmkF ) we aren't supposed to use them on the higher res cameras either, as they won't be taking full advantage of the sensor. I guess we should return all our AF-D lenses to Nikon for re-cycling, or dispose of them sensibly in the nearest landfill.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>The rumor has it that the D750 is 'only' 24MP....:-)</p>

<p>Putting your fav. old D lens on a 36MP sensor doesn't make it a worse picture.....just not as good as it could be with a more modern lens.</p>

<p>However, it's not a case of <em>ALL</em> modern ones, there's new lemons just as well as old gems.</p>

[Richard Williams]

<blockquote>

<p>However, it's not a case of <em>ALL</em> modern ones, there's new lemons just as well as old gems.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sarcasm aside, I completely agree. I hope the older lenses aren't orphaned by the new range of cameras, though I suppose 'AFS only' will eventually creep up the range. If there is a 'D750' next month, whether or not it has an AF motor might be seen as a statement of intent by Nikon (they've been pretty busy lately knocking out, e.g., f/1.8 primes to replace older pre-AFS designs). I suspect lenses like the 105 DC might never get the AFS treatment, and it would be a shame if you had to buy at least a D810-level camera to make them work (for now). You can argue that a 'sports' camera is best served by AFS lenses, but many of use don't buy a body for only one type of photography, and some of the AF/AF-D lenses actually focus very quickly (they just <em>sound</em> slower).</p>

 

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>You'd have to be very picky to be put off by a rotating screen, though there are several other ways that you might imagine the bean counters could still mess with the D700 hold-outs.</blockquote>

 

<p>Well, you have to be pretty picky to be put off by having a camera that can do 12MP and 5fps and not want a camera that offers 36MP at 4fps and 25MP at 5fps with a small crop. Not so much if you want to use a grip at 8fps, but there's the used D3s and D4 market to consider if that's of interest. But I speak as a D700 owner who's happy with my D800e (though I may still defect to a D810) so I may be guilty of not understanding those with a different opinion.</p>

 

<blockquote>For an action camera, you'll be needing to use AF-S lenses or the equivalent names from independent makers...so having a body motor is useless.</blockquote>

 

<p>I'll race my AF-D 28-80 f/3.3-5.6G against your 50mm f/1.4 AF-S if you like... but I admit it's the exception rather than the rule. I do think that Nikon might eventually make a motor-less FX body, but I'd expect it more to be a low-cost, low-weight option ("D500"?) than a sports camera. Bonus marks for using a pentamirror.</p>

 

<blockquote>And do away with that stupid aperture follower tab slot...it's a big gash right past the weatherproof lens mount right into the gizzards of the thing........and just waiting for water and dust ingress.</blockquote>

 

<p>Agreed to an extent. Nikon could probably consider doing without it, especially if they allowed you to indicate an AI-S lens was not just AI (or restored the detector post) so the camera could control the aperture. It wouldn't be rocket science to enable stop-down metering if people wanted to use the aperture ring anyway. I kind of like having proper AI compatibility, but since I don't own any lenses with a nonlinear aperture lever it really wouldn't hurt me, and having stop-down metering would give you proper pre-AI compatibility that's not much more clunky than the Df's two-stage system.</p>

 

<blockquote>However, it's not a case of ALL modern ones, there's new lemons just as well as old gems.</blockquote>

 

<p>Quite. I'll take on an AF-S 24-120 f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED with an AF Micro 200mm f/4D ED-IF any day.</blockquote>

[Richard Williams]

<blockquote>

<p>Well, you have to be pretty picky to be put off by having a camera that can do 12MP and 5fps and not want a camera that offers 36MP at 4fps and 25MP at 5fps with a small crop. Not so much if you want to use a grip at 8fps, but there's the used D3s and D4 market to consider if that's of interest. But I speak as a D700 owner who's happy with my D800e (though I may still defect to a D810) so I may be guilty of not understanding those with a different opinion.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Depends entirely on what you shoot, really. If you used a grip with the D700 to shoot sports at 8fps, the D800 is going to disappoint. If you never bothered with the grip the D800 is not quite there, but the D810 has finally equalled the D700, and added its spectacular own pixel count and other advantages. Of course, the faster single digit bodies would be much better for fast action, though heavier and more cumbersome for all-day general use. What the D700 and D300 really nailed was the concept of the gerneral purpose camera that tackled everything reasonably well. Technology has moved on since then, but Nikon has also moved away from this sort of camera. The D750 may, or may not, change that (if it actually exists!).</p>

[Mike D]

<p>For scenics, its definitely the D810. For sports, my D700 with grip does OK in the evening. Always disappointed at the lack of micro detail of the D700 for scenics. Dragged out my old D2H a couple of months ago. All it needs is a modern sensor, and I would be happy for the rest of my life. At 4MP, it's a dinosaur, but just listen to the rapid fire of the shutter. It's music to my ears. And the form fit is wonderful. </p>

[deanmeeks]

 

<p>Mike Halliwell wrote:<br>

Marc M, I'm very happy for you.<br>

But, you're <strong><em>obviously</em></strong> not pushing the imaging envelope....:-)<br>

Mike,<br />As soon as you can, please post a pic that's a result of "pushing the imaging envelope." A bet a million pros out there would love to see what they've been missing.</p>

 

[Uhooru]

<p>Rumor or not, I concur with Thomas K @ 1:46. Yes there was some questions about the 12MP of the D700, but then people started using it and along with the D200 and D300/s has been one Nikon's most successful digital cameras. </p>

[panayotis_papadopoulos]

<p>Richard Williams: "<em>What the D700 and D300 really nailed was the concept of the gerneral purpose camera that tackled everything reasonably well. Technology has moved on since then, but Nikon has also moved away from this sort of camera. The D750 may, or may not, change that (if it actually exists!).</em>"<br /> So true, and since Canon has a camera like this, the 5D Mark III, I don't see the reason why Nikon shouldn't have one...</p>

[CvhKaar]

<p>Lol, most pp at this ws often have comments on rumours, but now the most extensive thread is about a rumour ocer a camera that was not announced or even hinted at by Nikon themselves,...</p>

<p>This thread even spend a lot more attention to this then any other site i could find.... :-)</p>