Rangefinder Choice / Suggestions

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Hi Everyone,<br>

Interested in acquiring a quality rangefinder 35mm camera. I currently own a Nikon DSLR and Hasselblad 501c with several lenses.<br>

Leicas are nice but for entry point, not looking to spend prices they're fetching. <br>

Have looked at the Canon IIIa and Nikon S3 - I'm sure both are great choices. The Canon's I've seen have the Serener 1.8 lens @ 50mm<br>

Interested in a camera body with lens, not buying a body and then looking for a lens. I've also looked at KEH, which I've had good a + experience with but they're selling the parts al-a-carte. <br>

Also figure, if I get a kit at the right price, more than likely, will need to send it for CLA.<br>

Interested in your perspectives:</p>

<ul>

<li>I've noticed the Canon III's have the bottom loader - I'm sure loading film this way is an acquired learning curve but wondering if I'm better off finding another model with a hinged loading door on back? But I really like the looks of the bodies on these classic cameras.</li>

<li>Any insight on sharpness of pictures with the Serener lens?</li>

<li>Who would you send camera to for CLA?</li>

</ul>

<p>Just an enthusiast, not a professional - looking for something lighter and more compact for taking on motorcycle or to travel destinations far from home that isn't heavy like the Hasselblad. Also, I'm aware of the other brands out there but prefer a Canon, Nikon or Leica if I find one at the right entry point price (under $400).<br>

Thank You!</p>

<p>Ken</p>

 

[john_shriver]

<p>Nikon rangefinders are for collectors, not users. The Zeiss lens mount it uses is awkward, as Zeiss had to dodge Leica's patents.<br>

The 50/1.8 Serenar is an excellent lens, better than the LTM Summicron in many ways. I don't find loading bottom-loader LTM cameras a big hassle, you just need scissors to trim the leader.<br>

That said, if you don't mind a bit more weight and bulk, give a lot of consideration to the Canon P, 7, and 7s. The first two can readily be had for reasonable prices, and have so much better a finder. If you're willing to pay the price, the 7s gives you the convenience of a decent uncoupled light-meter.<br>

A bottom-loader Canon is likely to need a CLA, DAG or Youxin Ye can do them. The P, 7, and 7s are less likely to need a CLA, they have a more modern shutter with more spring power.</p>

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Great advice - thank you, John!</p>

[SCL]

<p>Hi Ken - Although I'm a longtime Leica (LTM & M) user, I recently purchased a Canon P with a Serenar 1.8. Both were in good condition, but it was clear to me that both would benefit from a CLA. I sent them to Youxin Ye (I'd previously used Dag & Sherrie Krauter for my Leica gear) and he got everything in tip top shape at a good price and back to me in a very short time. I really like the P, which is a LTM body, because of the hinged back, and excellent viewfinder (much like the early Leica M ones). As far as the lens goes, even with some miniscule wobble due to wear, the results have been excellent...Leica "glow" wide open, nice and sharp stopped down a notch or two. Steve Gandy does an insightful job of reviewing some of the rangefinder bodies of the era under the heading of Classic Pre-1972 Leica Copies & Lenses at http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm, and Dante Stella has some interesting lens thoughts at http://www.dantestella.com/technical/canoleic.html.</p>

[frederick_muller]

<p>Get a Bessa R2, relatively inexpensive, mount Leica lenses, and you can grow out of it later if you want.</p>

[rogerwb]

<p>I'd go for the Canon P.</p>

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Thanks everyone! I'm seeing some of the Canon P's with the Canon lens (same as Serenar?) Some of the Canon III's I've seen, the lens has Serenar name). Some Canon P's have Yashika lens. <br>

Appreciate the P suggestion - will stick with the Canon or Serenar lens - some of the Canon P's & 7's show a huge 50mm lenses and others are pictured are smaller - what are the differences?</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>There were many different speeds of 50mm lenses for the Canon rangefinders. In the later black/chrome style, you'll find (at least) f/2.8, f/1.8, f/1.4, f/1.2, and f/0.95 (last for 7 and 7s only).<br>

Optically, from the Serenar chrome 50/1.8 to the Canon chrome 50/1.8 to the black/chrome Canon 50/1.8, they're all essentially the same optical formula. But the black/chrome one is prone to internal haze that can't be cleaned out. The 50/1.8 is the most common Canon LTM lens, and is great value.<br>

The 50/1.4 is a great lens as well, not prone to haze problems, but pricier than the 50/1.8.<br>

The 50/1.2 is pricey, and the 50/0.95 has become crazy pricey.<br>

The P has reflected frame lines for 35mm, 50mm, and 100mm lenses. The 7 and 7s have bright-line frame lines for 35mm, 50mm, 85mm, 100mm, and 135mm lenses. The 7 lacks an accessory shoe, so it's not really useful for lenses wider than 35mm.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Try a Leica III F with a lens, I'm not sure of the prices, but generally should be able to find one for not too much. Will probably need a CLA. But if you really want light, good lens and affordable that can also serve as a platform for any rangefinder lens you want to get, the CV Bessa's are very good, usable cameras. A Bessa R with a 35 lens is a nice little kit.</p>

[Lou_Meluso]

<p>I'm a fan of the Canon P as well see <a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00ZjJv">HERE</a>. The earlier Canon bottom loaders are fun but the finder is kind of squinty see <a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00ZfEM">HERE</a>. The Canon 7 has a GREAT finder see <a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00XHsX">HERE</a>.</p>

<p>All said, the Bessa R is the most updated body for LTM lenses.</p>

[randall_pukalo]

Contax Tvs - Leica quality at a fraction of the price. This is a compact rangefinder with built in 28-56mm zoom lens that

gives amazing resolution and color. You won't be taking your Hasselblad on trips once you try one. Canon rangefinder,

not even in the same league. These were $1300 cameras 10 years ago, that sell for a fraction of that now that digital has

taken over.

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Just so I understand John Shriver - the 1.8 Canon & Serenar are essentially the same lens but black/chrome shown on later models is more prone to haze. This is not an issue with the 1.5 model.<br>

Am on the lookout for the P and 7 model, came across this - seller says there is a little haze in the chrome serener 1.8 - saw the on Ebay - is this a good price for this outfit? <br>

171277419819</p>

<p> </p>

[paul_wheatland]

<p>If you buy the P model and the metal titanium ribbon shutter is wrinkled, do not worry, most are, because of brake failure but camera should and will work albeit slightly noisy when winding the film and cocking the shutter but not when firing the camera.</p>

[paul_neuthaler]

<p>Barry has a good idea: a Leica IIIF, black dial, with even a 50 Elmar, will give you lots of great shots and the yummy tactility that only Herren Barnack and Berek can supply.</p>

[SCL]

<p>If you get a P and find there is slight noise or resistance when winding and cocking the shutter which Paul described above (as was the case with mine), it means that the lubricants have dried. Mr Ye relubed mine and it is as smooth and quiet as my Leicas now. I'm one happy camper.</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>I whole-heartedly agree with the feature laden <strong>Canon P</strong> recommendations.<br>

If the desire is to go even more compact, then my next favorite choice would be the bargain<strong> Leica IIIc</strong> units.</p>

<p>So many wonderful LTM lenses to choose from.<br>

Later, they can be easily used on the new mirrorless digital's...</p>

 

[steve_bellayr]

<p>Seriously, under $400. Currently, any of the bodies in excellent condition, that is ready to use without a CLA will run close to $400. For motorcycle riding I would recommend Yashica GSN upwards of $100 or a Canon Canonet upwards of $200. Lens on the Yashica is better but the Canonet is smaller. Both come with meters and if you drop them you do not loose much. Just a thought on the activity. Another camera to consider for motorcycle activity is the Nikonos V. It is a diving camera, though not a rangefinder. It has a meter and is extremely rugged and should be able to take a moderate fall from a motorcycle and you will not need to carry an extra bag if it rains.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Canons are the greatest bargains in the 'quality' LTM cameras. (e.g., <a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00bzt3">link</a>)<br /> Some Nikon RFs (<a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00bm6p">link</a>) are more-or-less affordable, and many of us actually prefer the Contax-style bayonet to the 39mm screw mount.<br /> The Contax IIa is also less than you'd think and a superb RF camera (<a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00bp7m">link</a>).<br /> The latter will work with many of the excellent Soviet lenses made in the same mount for the Soviet produced version of the Contax II called the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_%28brand%29">Kiev</a>. The latter are excellent cameras when you find a good one, and I've been lucky on that front in my purchases of them.</p>

<p>The classic "poor-man's" Leica is one of the fancier Canonet cameras (<a href="/classic-cameras-forum/00Zeih">link</a>). No lens interchangeability tho.</p>

<p>Many many many more ranging from a few dollars to megabucks. Most of the late model (contemporary with early SLRs) RF cameras are incredibly good - the peak of the art.</p>

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Appreciate all replies - Steve Bellayr - like your suggestions - may dive in and try the Canonet - I used to own a Canon Ftb back in the day - what a great build the Canons are!<br>

Canonet looks interesting and good value for sure - will keep the group posted!</p>

[dhbebb]

<p><em>Contax IIa ... <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_%28brand%29" target="_blank">Kiev</a></em><br>

Winner by a mile in the value-for-money stakes is a Kiev 4 (with meter) or 4a (without). The meter may or may not work and is not very sensitive or user-friendly but model 4 is easier to find. You can easily find a fully working example with lens for $60 (assuming the whole of the Ukraine does not explode into civil war). Contax are not cheap except by comparison with Leica - the big thing is that it is MUCH easier to find a Zeiss 50mm f2 or f1.5 Sonnar in good shape than a Leica lens of comparable vintage.</p>

[ray .]

I'd avoid a camera with haze in the lens.

 

The Canonet is worlds away from a Leica as far as the viewfinder, build quality, smoothness of the shutter

release and film advance lever, etc, but it does have a good lens, and one can produce good pictures with

it. Just know it's an old economy model as far as the way it handles, not a luxury sedan.

[ken_tuvman]

<p>Thanks all - this thread just gets more and more interesting! So many cameras to choose from. Almost pulled the trigger last night on a Canonet but pressed the "pause" button - no rush, right? I've got the Nikon DSLR kit with lenses and the Hasselblad 501c with 3 lenses. <br>

I own 3 BMW motorcycles, 2 that I restored - there's a sister model to the Airhead called URAL - sounds like a similar story from Leica / Kiev - Russia took over a BMW production facility, guessing in East Germany and started producing the URAL - it's a nice machine but not as refined as the BMW's.<br>

With that said, the Kiev 4a looks interesting - just wondering from a quality standpoint how the workings/build of the camera and glass quality/sharpness of lens compares to the Nikon & Leica lenses? I've noticed a couple brands of lenses on the Kiev's - one is Jupiter and other Helios - is one "better/sharper" than the other?<br>

On the selling side, when the day comes that I decide to part with a camera, I know a name brand will draw more attention than not.<br>

Still soaking it all in so keep your comments coming, please!!!</p>

[carbon_dragon]

My thoughts are that a lot depends on your income level and your preferences. To shoot with my favorite is older Leica

Ms such as the M2 or M3 (I like the M2 for its 35-50-90 framelines). It's really a wonderful camera to use and it's very

rugged. You can use a whole variety of lenses from the modern Ms to the old screwmounts,.

 

 

Ok, so suppose you can't stretch to those (M2s are pretty cheap though, look them up). I have a Leica IIIf BD (black dial)

which is the cheap way to get a Leica screwmount. Loading film and the squinty viewfinder won't make you happy though

they are great little cameras capable of great results.

 

 

I have 2 Contax IIAs in good condition. They are nice well built cameras but problematic to keep working and tricky in the

mounting of the lenses and the arching of the finger over the viewfinder window to focus the 50 lens while focusing the

rest of the lenses by turning the lens barrel. I don't recommend them for working use today.

 

 

I have a Leica CL which uses Leica M lenses. Great but you can't get the mercury batteries so you have to use short lived

wein cells and they are probably not the camera to depend on these days. Tiny and a good picture taker though.

 

 

If you always use a normal lens, I have my first camera, a Konica I which was a great little rangefinder which will give you

a good entrance into rangefinders at almost no cost. Great lens too.

 

 

I've had Russian/Ukranian leica clones and Kievs (contax clones) and I don't recommend them. If in good condition (tricky

because most have been abused and neglected and were roughly built as a start) they can give you good pictures but

you may not enjoy the experience.

 

 

Canons are good cameras (I had the 7) and the lenses are good too. They can be better users than the Leica

screwmounts but they don't feel as good if that makes any sense.

 

 

Save yourself a lot of effort and get an M2 and an older Leica 50 summicron.

[ken_tuvman]

<p>David - thanks for your reply. </p>

[christopher_junker1]

<p>If you wear glasses and/or are a left eye shooter, some of the above cameras will not be easy or pleasant to use. I am left eyed and wear glasses, still own and used a number of the mentioned rangefinders and after many years have settled on a single stroke M3 and Summicron 50. The M3 is easy to focus even with glasses in low light, tough and the rigid Summicron takes great pictures. I've also used the M3 with a black/chrome 50 Canon f1.4 and LTM adapter with great results. The later Canon black/chrome aluminum lenses are well built and lighter than brass Serenars and Leica lenses. The Nikonos makes sense if wet, dusty weather or banging around will be encountered. To complete your kit, I recommend a very small light meter, a UV filter to protect the lens front element and a hard camera case with neck strap. Hope you have a nice ride on the Beemer.</p>