Norma Desmond Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 <p><em>" … the "not political enough" critique …”: the words "enough" and “critique” are not mine!"</em></p> <p>David, I wasn't referring to what you said. It was in response to some other comments in addition to what <em>Bresson</em> said about photographing rocks, which had been brought up here as well.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 <p><em>""A true news reporter, I feel, would have gone after this story, notwithstanding that it was one no-one at the time wanted to hear – HCB for whatever reason was content to turn in pix like the above and move on.""</em><br> <em> </em><br> David, as far as I can read from your own link to what Bresson wanted with his shot of the Belgian Gestapo informer is somewhat more sophisticated than what you propose. Bresson is quoted to have said:<br> <em>""‘Above all, I craved to seize the whole essence, in the confines of one single photograph, of some situation that was in the process of unrolling itself before my eyes.’""<br /><br /></em></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 <p>"interesting geometric lines."</p> <p>And I would add a clever angle....but more about Art than the perception of the humanity; but then he was more into Art than a understanding of humanity. The humanity side was more about turning a coin...a job.</p> <p>Talk a good enough story, be articulate, and the world of Photography seems to becomes your oyster.</p> <p>Having said that I respect his work. All praise to him for his achievements and legacy...but he really wanted to be a Artist.</p> <p>And that really was him.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodys Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 <p>HCB was a huge influence on my early photography. My own tribute to this photo is <a href="/photo/12298411">here</a>.</p> <p>I grew up in a French town in Quebec, before the 'internet'. I didn't have a lot of influences, there was no museum or art gallery, the library had nothing except Antoine Desilet's book on darkroom technique, and the newstands had the usual gearhead mags and little else. The only magazine on the newstand with actual photographs (besides National Geographic) was the French mag <a href="http://www.photo.fr/magazine.html">Photo</a>. It was there that I discovered HCB, Doisneau, Helmut Newton, Weston, Mapplethorpe, and David Hamilton (I still have the Cokin soft filter I bought afteer seeing <em>his</em> images...). Did I mention I was a lonely teenager with a camera?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shutterbud Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 <p>I feel that I should have an opinion of HCB by now, but I don't really. So I google-imaged him and it was clear even from the thumbnails that he had something special. The particular image in question seems a bit formulaic for my tastes. I'm not a big fan of waiting about for something happen while making sure you have a pretty foreground. I can't exactly fault it, but....</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>Playing with the decisive moment idea in landscape (I had to reduce it a lot to show it here, it's also in my PN portfolio):</p><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>I like the geometric components in the composition, the angles of the stairway contrasting the curve of the road. I'm betting that HCB scouted the location and then waited for something to come along to fill the open space to the left. The cyclist was the perfect additional element.</p> <p>I think of this as the spider web approach to photography - set up all of the elements and wait until an appropriate subject passes through the frame. Then expose at just the right moment. When it works, the technique yields a satisfying combination of a thoughtfully crafted composition with a surprise element. Delightful!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah_fox Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>David, my gut impression, on viewing the "informant" photo, was not positive towards the "accuser." The look of frenzied glee in her eyes is creepy, and there is nothing about the photo that suggests, to me, that the "accused" woman is going to get a fair shake. It looks to me like she's in deep @$#%. Perhaps I am too detached from this moment in history, but the photo, to me, is a rather sad commentary on the darker side of human nature.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>Sarah, I appreciate your response. In reply, I would first say that my impression was that no-one in 1945 was bending over backwards to be nice to Nazis or Nazis collaborators - when I say that the Allies were trying to say "Even with Nazis, we're giving them a fair shake", I mean (as in the case of the Nuremberg trials) "a fair shake consisting of a fair trial and a fair hanging".<br> My overriding feeling on seeing this picture, however, and on reflecting that HCB's published work seems to contain virtually no images of World War II, is that while HCB responded to WWII in other direct ways (membership of the French resistance, leading to internment in a prison camp from which he escaped), he was somehow unable to respond in the form of images.<br> Above all, I contrast HCB's few war images with the work of a true hard news man like George Rodger:<br> http://life.time.com/history/at-the-gates-of-hell-the-liberation-of-bergen-belsen-april-1945/#1<br> Rodger spoke of being so numbed by the horror of Bergen-Belsen that he could only work by switching to auto-pilot but even so was able to make images like the one above, which says in classic visual terms that something truly dreadful has happened - not only have people died, not only have their bodies lain unburied to be gnawed by animals, but this insane and abominable situation has been going on for so long that for the little boy it is normal. HCB was utterly incapable of making an image like this - and yet he and Rodger apparently had great respect for each other, since they were both co-founders of Magnum!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p><em>"HCB was utterly incapable of making an image like this"</em></p> <p>David, I'm curious about this. Have you read something along these lines about Bresson or is it just your own choice of words. What I'm wondering (and I honestly don't know, since I haven't read about Bresson and his thoughts about WWII photos) is whether he was or whether he, himself, thought he was <em>incapable</em> of making such images or whether he, for whatever reasons he may have had, chose not to.</p> <p>I know for myself that there are some images I'm capable of making and yet have chosen not to make them for a variety of reasons. At the same time, he may well have felt incapable, also for a variety of reasons.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>A love of humanity and humour are the two qualities of Cartier-Bresson and his images that touch me. The example image chosen by David, at the town (city today?) of Hyères on the Mediteranean shore is one mainly of humour, as the wheels of a bicycle and the blur of motion makes the spiral staircase into something much more alive and dynamic than an occasionally used but nonetheless static architectural element that it is. Ibid for the curved street.</p> <p>I don't think Cartier-Bresson was one to create images in the manner of using actors or props or setting up in a concerted manner his subject matter. His extraordinary talent, coupled with the two qualities I associate with his work, was to research and discover what others often overlook and to imbue his subjects with humour and humanity. I particularly love his image of a French lady of the rural bourgeosie savouring a glass of Chablis or whatever white wine, alone in a restaurant, or the image of two dark clothed woman walking on a sidewalk and in perfect synergy with two classic stone sculpted classic figures set on a directly overhead outcrop of the building architecture. The decisive moment was when everything came together in his head, off the beaten track of other photographers.</p> <p>His humanity and humour may be equalled by others of his beloved "Hexagone"(Edouard Boubat for humanity, perhaps Jaccques-Henri Lartigue for humour?) but combining the two was for me at least his powerful trademark. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaellinder Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>I know I've already confessed somewhere, sometime on PN to not having studied the history of photography. Although I am acquainted with Cartier-Bresson's name, I'm in no position to compare him with any other photographer, famous or otherwise. I'm also not able to say whether his work somehow has informed mine. If other photographers have influenced my work, I must say they're all on PN. (You know who you are.)</p> <p>As to the image under discussion: I see it as a simple, direct commentary on the human condition. The blur of the man riding the bicycle shows that humankind is imperfect, and the shapes in the stone and metal illustrate that geometry (at least the Euclidean sort) is as close to perfection as a human endeavor can get. There you have it. To me, the image is eminently successful in motivating viewers to determine what story it tells.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>Reading the last two analyses, mine included, suggests to me that we are often prone to ascribing much to a picture that probably has a simpler communication than what we make it out to be. I suspect that such (overly imaginative?) analyses have often more to do with our own attitude or experience or invention and possibly less with that of the artist. However, ass viewers, that is our perogative. That Cartier-Bresson was a superb observer of mankind and his environment is unquestionable. I'm not sure it says anything about the power of his photographs and his satisfaction or not with the medium, but he later rejected photography for sketching and painting, finding the latter media more satisfying and conducive to artistic expression.</p> <p>He might therefore be shocked that someone would presently want to pay $18,000 for a copy of Hyère 1932, when his sense of artistic value values were more attached to the medium of painting.</p> <p>One of the finest photographs he was associated with, but only a subject-creator of, was a simple portrait of himself and his young grandchild close to his side by a wall outside his house, an image in which the apparent love of the little girl for the man is only equaled by that reciprocated by grandpa Henri. What better reward at the end of one's career?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 <p>I found this about C-B's war years.</p> <p>"At the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939, Cartier-Bresson joined the French Army’s film and photo unit. His work involved filming and photographing artillery fire, road bombardments and troop movements. However, in June 1940, he was taken prisoner by the German army and was held for more than three years, most of which were spent doing hard manual labour."</p> <p>That might explain his lack of further interest in war action photography. Further information at: <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/how-to/icons-of-photography/534672/dessau-1945-informer-henri-cartier-bresson-iconic-photograph#mvEgC3DyX6iDz1yP.99">http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/how-to/icons-of-photography/534672/dessau-1945-informer-henri-cartier-bresson-iconic-photograph#mvEgC3DyX6iDz1yP.99</a><br /> <br /> Possibly the facial expression of the woman denouncing the Belgian collaborator is no more revealing than that of a split second fragment of her denounciation that undoubtedly sourced an expression of disdain. A video clip might have shown her with a slightly different overall demeanour, but the spit second fragment does convey a powerful message. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 <p>We've had a good run on this thread, but perhaps fatigue is setting in - I see Arthur quoted a link that I also quoted a page ago. Still, if it draws the link to more people's attention, never mind :-).<br> @ Fred: You ask "David, I'm curious about this. Have you read something along these lines about Bresson or is it just your own choice of words." The answer is - it's my own choice of words, based on a study of my 6 or 7 HCB books and some web pages. Until Magnum invite me to spend a week at their HQ viewing HCB's contact-sheet archive, educated guesswork is the best I can do :-).<br> There is quite a variety of personality types among war photographers, from the roaring buccaneer (Capa, Sean Flynn, Tim Page) through to the hardworking artisan (such as Larry Burrows), the quiet introvert (Don McCullin, for example) or the professorial type (James Nachtwey), but they have one thing in common - tremendously strong commitment to what is a very dangerous occupation.<br> HCB does not strike me as this type at all - which I in no way mean as a criticism. I admirer HCB enormously for the large body of work he created from a highly individual viewpoint - and I think everyone agrees that this is what he had, whether they actually personally like it or not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 <p>"Perhaps fatigue is setting in"</p> <p>?</p> <p>Is it not best to allow free expression of ideas on HCB and the photo in question, given also that it is not yet mid week?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin carron Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 <p>A bit late to this discussion. I like the sense both of the swirling movement and the static solidity in the shot. It seems to me to be, as Roberto said, a poem : In this case about the action of life taking place amid the unchanging framework of the town.<br /> From a technical point of view I believe HCB at this time used a Leica I - so with a viewfinder but no rangefinder. For him the rangefinder got in the way of his photography. A case of less is more.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 <p>Flickr has some interested photo communities dedicated to the Decisive Moment and HCB.<br> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?w=all&q=decisive+moment">http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?w=all&q=decisive+moment</a></p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 <p><em>From a technical point of view I believe HCB at this time used a Leica I - so with a viewfinder but no rangefinder. For him the rangefinder got in the way of his photography. A case of less is more.</em><br> Don't forget that the Leica II was launched in 1932, maybe after HCB took this shot. Of course HCB was not a gearhead - I am sure he didn't camp outside his Leica dealership overnight to be the first one to get a model II :-).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p>From the article about the informer photo:</p> <p><em>"At the moment the picture was taken, the informer stands with her head bowed in shame while the woman accusing her bares her teeth and raises her arm, filled with rage and the desire for revenge. Their contrasting expressions symbolise the feelings of people on the winning and losing sides in a long and devastating war: the triumphant anger of people finally liberated from the tyranny of Nazi control and the humiliation of the German defeat."</em><a href="http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/how-to/icons-of-photography/534672/dessau-1945-informer-henri-cartier-bresson-iconic-photograph#o2XPSkc2XLtUOse0.99"><br /></a></p> <p>This is quite a leading interpretation by Mr. Clark, who wrote the article. I'm ignorant of Clark and he may be privy to information that I'm not aware of, but I'll offer a question about his take on the photo.</p> <p>My main concern is the supposed shame the informer is showing. First of all, is it shame? Or are we projecting shame onto her because that's what more human people than she would expect to be felt? If it is shame, is it shame at what she's done or shame at being caught and humiliated in public like this?</p> <p>Does the accuser have a "desire for revenge"? I don't know. Perhaps she does and perhaps she's stated as much. But what I see could as easily be a spontaneous and unbridled show of hatred or even glory at identifying this woman. Revenge is going a step further and I don't see that the picture shows that, though some of Mr. Clark's followup descriptions of the events and subsequent photos may suggest the revenge aspect.</p> <p>Again, from the article:</p> <p><em>" . . . Cartier-Bresson wrote that his aim was to ‘preserve life in the act of living’, and added: ‘Above all, I craved to seize the whole essence, in the confines of one single photograph, of some situation that was in the process of unrolling itself before my eyes.’ That’s exactly what he achieves in this image."</em></p> <p>I'm skeptical of the word and concept of "essence" though I think Bresson describes it in a way I can relate to. If "essence" is meant to suggest the absolute truth of the moment or the definitive view of a situation or the defining understanding of the scene then I find it problematic. So, Clark is not describing what Bresson has captured, not describing the essence of the situation but rather a somewhat presumptive point of view, IMO. What Bresson seems to mean (or at least what I'd like to think he means) by capturing the "essence" leaves it more open and more filled with possibility, which I think is quite significant, especially from a photographer of his stature and experience . . . <em>"some situation that was in the process of unrolling itself before my eyes."</em> "In the process . . . " suggests change and fluidity, something often made too fixed and complete in discussions of the "decisive moment." Bresson's moments (and those of photographers in general) may be more suggestive of a process, of the flow out of which they come, including the future beyond the moment, than they are the fixing of an understanding or a particular instant in time.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p>David, I just re-read your own post above about this informer photo.</p> <p><em>"HCB for whatever reason was content to turn in pix like the above and move on."</em></p> <p>I wonder if a photographer's "detachment", which I find in much of Bresson's work, also will extend even to political photos. He may truly not have had an agenda, allowing his camera to reveal what a situation had to offer but allowing viewers the space to read into them and not giving viewers too much of the personal. I happen to find his body of work wanting for that but at the same time, as you also suggest, respect that way of wanting to work. He may precisely not have been looking for the news story and, instead, allowing significant moments of life to unfold and be photographed without making judgments, but committed to a showing and revelation nonetheless. He was kind of breathing life and there is a certain abstractness in the breaths he takes that may not square well with "news" photography.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p><em>"French civilians castigate mother of three children with unproven acts of treason. The French mob appears to have stooped to vigilantism and street justice."</em></p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p>Alan, can you tell us why you posted this unattributed and out-of-context quote, who said it, and for what reason you posted it? Thanks.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p>It's an experiment. I totally made up the caption. But it could have been as true as the original caption. Or as false. I believe that captions influence our interpretations of photographs. It's not that the pictue is lying but that our understanding of what it means is shifted by verbiage. I wanted to see if viewers can look at this photo differently. What would they think if they never saw it before, didn't know HCB photographed it and it had no caption? Or what would they think if it did have the caption I created?</p> <p> </p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanKlein Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 <p>My mistake. I meant this as a response to Arthur's link above in his post regarding this HCB photo<br> <a href="http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/how-to/icons-of-photography/534672/dessau-1945-informer-henri-cartier-bresson-iconic-photograph#mvEgC3DyX6iDz1yP.99">http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/how-to/icons-of-photography/534672/dessau-1945-informer-henri-cartier-bresson-iconic-photograph#mvEgC3DyX6iDz1yP.99</a></p> <p>It was in responce to the discussion about HCB getting involved in the politics of his own photographs.</p> Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now