Nikon Introduces Df Retro DSLR

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I am still working on getting the Df. I haven't even seen one yet. Once I got myself one I would post my impression about it especially the dials. I don't intend to use the command wheel often so the trick of shifting the shutter speed by 1/3 etc.. I don't think I would use. I think I would use the shutter speed in full stop and the aperture ring set where I wanted. I don't know for sure now how the display will read but if they don't display to my liking then be it. I just use it as a non metered camera. </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>I just use it as a non metered camera.</blockquote>

 

<p>! I wasn't going that far in my criticism of the interface! (And, to be honest, I'm not that keen on trying to set exposure when not looking through the finder anyway, since you don't really know what the camera's pointing at to meter - unless you're on a tripod, which doesn't seem to be the Df's target use.)</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>That's where Real-Time histos in LV are handy*! Shame it didn't have them..:-(</p>

<p>Some people say the D800's LV implementation isn't great but they <em>do</em> work well enough.</p>

<p>* Something Canon have included for some time on all recent DX and FX DSLRs.... I wonder why Nikon have chosen not to?</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Incidentally, the same report says that the D5300 has (camera-based) aperture control in live view, like the D800. Bjorn was kind enough to report that his D600 has dynamic aperture control, but may have been influenced by my poor explanation of the functionality, since Thom Hogan directly contradicts this. I'm hoping to get the chance to check, but anyone able to break the tie, and specifically to check the Df, would tell me something potentially useful. Had I known this when I got my D700, it might have pushed me towards the D3 instead.<br />

<br />

The D800's line skipping is painful, but at least it's more reliable than the phase-detect sensor. I assume it's a read-out speed thing, and it would be perfectly possible to get full resolution output if you slowed it down enough (possibly to 4fps...) It's on the long list of things I'd like to fix about the D800 BIOS, should Nikon ever have a revelation and allow enthusiastic software developers to improve things for free. :-)</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Sums it up quite nicely: http://aboutphotography-tomgrill.blogspot.com/</p>

<blockquote>

<p>This camera is not for everyone in the same way a retro Fuji X camera is. At such a high price point you are going to have to be very serious about having a use for it. It doesn't quite fill the gap of a D700, and doesn't add any advancements over a D610 or D800 that would make it ideal for travel, scenics, weddings, or fashion. I am not exactly sure where it fits in with the needs of a professional photographer. Its nostalgic experience is something else entirely. You will be buying this camera as much for the experience of using it as for what it can deliver in terms of image quality, and you won't be disappointed with either.</p>

</blockquote>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>I, for one, happen to like using dials as opposed to digital screens -- much more intuitive,

much more by touch without moving the eye from the finder, and as a result much faster. ... I suppose that

if I had weaned on cameras beginning in the digital age, I might not feel this way.</blockquote>

 

<p>Thanks, Dieter. This is where I struggle to understand. I'm comfortable with dial-based cameras; my

Bessa R is fine for me, and I didn't bat an eyelid at the Rolleiflex (after I'd loaded it). But the Bessa R is fine

because the only lenses are short and light with aperture rings right under my hand. There's no exposure

compensation because there's no auto exposure; there's no per-shot ISO (unless I do weird stuff). I either

set the shutter speed to "shake free" before I start and tweak the exposure with aperture, or set the

aperture for the effect I want and tweak the shutter, preparing to stop and reconsider if I have to move

either dial too far. But then I can't see the selected aperture or shutter when shooting anyway - all I have is

the exposure LEDs; most Nikons are different. Add more controls and even slightly bigger lenses and this

arrangement seems less good to me - maybe an F4 wouldn't be such a good idea for me, but clearly my

"experience" with dialled cameras may not translate to the Df, and I need to learn.<br />

<br />

Yet I'm still confused by how the blogger who wrote this is using his camera. I can see the Df's dials are

faster than removing the eye from the finder to use an LCD - but I don't understand when that is necessary

for any of the functionality provided by the Df's dials on any two-dial Nikon, especially the D4 he shoots

with. If the ergonomic advantages of the Df apply primarily to those for whom a dialled interface is like

coming home, I do not fall into that category: I like to use cameras with a different interface because it is in

some way better for at least one use - there's no nostalgic reason for me to do so. I hope to find that

advantage about the Df (so far the reasons to want the interface seem minor to me, though I don't claim

everyone will think the same, but I get the impression there's more) if there's something to learn about

photography or interface design from doing so. If I have to find it myself, I'll try, but the more clear benefits

the advocates can give, the more likely I'll succeed. (And I appreciate anyone who's still trying to educate

after 850 posts.) There should be a logic to a design (beyond what was feasible pre-electronics) - I have

enough trouble trying to work out what the programmers of PowerPoint were <strike>on</strike> thinking;

we should be able to ask more of Nikon.</p>

[bms]

<p>Andrew, thanks, and sorry to hear about your troubles in LV. It was 32 (FAHRENHEIT) and below when I was there. I went for work, I am not much of a fan of the city's 'amenities'. The architecture is grotesque (I actually used the fisheye quite a bit, thinking it fits the distorted reality of the place).</p>

<p>I not entirely clear what you mean with aperture, but I am guessing the answer is NO. I did not use my D800 for video when I had one, nor did I use live view much. As far as I can see the Df sets the aperture when you enter live view (say f2). if you CHANGE the aperture when in live view (say to f8), it will take the picture at the set aperture (f8) and AFTER the shot will leave the aperture where it has been dialed in (f8). The DOF preview button has NO function in live view. Shame really, if even the D5300 can do it. I wonder though if that is a software rather than a hardware issue.</p>

<p>The shutter adjustment does not reset itself UNLESS you change the shutter speed on the top dial, in which case it does back to +/- 0 (i.e. set to 1/125, you change it to 1/100, you then dial in 1/250 and its 1/250, not 200).</p>

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>Some people say the D800's LV implementation isn't great</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> Not because of the histograms, which are clear and easy to ready. The live view implementation of the D800 is fine - much better than previous generations of Nikons - except for the image quality. At high magnification it looks a bit noisy. Canon's live view images are much sharper and easier to use for critical manual focusing.</p>

<p>Autofocus works quite well in live view on a D800. You can improve AF performance further by opening the lens and/or forcing a bright LCD image by deliberately overexposing during focusing. Then lock down the focus (turn off AF on the lens) and dial in the correct exposure. I use this technique when shooting in the evening from a tripod.</p>

[donbright]

<p><em>One thing this camera can do better than any other I have tested is shoot in low light. Nikon did something to the sensor or software because this camera even edges out the D4 and D800 -- and that is saying something.</em><br>

<em><br /></em>This is the kind of revelation we've been looking for. This re-aligns some thinking here, at least for me it does. All I do is wait for low light. Low sweet light that no film, or sensor can re-create. So to get a clean image I need to use asa 100, or 400 film, and I'm talking handheld here, where the incidence of grain, or noise because of some occasions of shake is induced.. I'm just imagining how nice it must be to get 125th, or 250th speeds, in conditions where I'm used to a 30th, 15th, 60th. This must be so cool. </p>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>I'm using the Nikon Df in 4 weeks, beside the <strong>D4</strong> and delighted for the quality, the size, usefulness, old lenses I can uses them, Sometime Im getting better pictures then the D4, . . . BUT . . . <strong> BUT . . . I curse nikon, Yes, I curs Nikon </strong>for not providing an optional battery grip, or make a chance for a third party to provide one in the future . At list, the CF cars <strong>not</strong> supposed at the bottom with the battery compartment. Amateurs point and shooters ok. Outrages idea, and provocative, insulting. ONE card only.????? You last you mind.!<br>

Still respectfully to Nikon from a loyal nikon user in the las 50 years.<br>

Somebody please forward this comments to NIKON.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Andrew, you seem to make things quite hard for yourself - over-thinking to the point of torture by trying to find something that isn't there. The reviewer puts it quite simple and I don't think there is more to it. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>You are going to have to really like the retro controls and looks to spring for the higher priced Df. For some of us, this may be worth the extra price. For others, not. In other words, this camera is not for everyone ... It's as much a matter of taste and style as anything.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It should be obvious by now that one will have to adjust when moving from any other Nikon DSLR to using the Df with its different design and layout; and as with any layout, it has its pluses and minuses. You are either willing/comfortable to adjust or you like one design better than the other, it's as simple as that and there is no underlying deep understanding about photography or interface design to be gathered here. It is quite obvious from this thread that people use cameras differently - pick up a Df and a lot of things will instantly become clear to you. It'll help, of course, to be able to shoot with it for some time - but most won't have that luxury. Information from others are helpful to some extent - but at least to me the first impressions when handling the camera are at least as important. That happened to me with the D7000 that I was ready to purchase entering the store; my first impression was how uncomfortable it was to hold and I ended up not buying one. I went back several times to see if my first impression had been wrong - yet every time I ended up re-confirming it.</p>

<p>For what I shoot with FX, the interface differences are of very little importance. As I am not shooting action or sports with it, I don't have the need to make adjustments with the camera up at the eye; I can take it down and make whatever adjustment is needed. My purchase decision would be made based on other criteria - I certainly wouldn't purchase the Df for its retro interface and looks but rather in spite of them. I mentioned previously that I would set up the camera as close as possible to my other Nikons and the only adjustment to be made would be the use of the EC dial. I can't exclude that with use I may find different ways - there can always be surprises. For example, I could not imagine using the LCD on the back of my NEX 6 to compose shots (instead of using the built-in EVF) - yet in some scenarios, I do exactly that and stand there with that ridiculous outstretched-arms pose.</p>

<p>I am actually quite happy that I don't have to make a choice between a D610, Df, or D800 at this point - it would be quite a difficult one.</p>

 

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

[Andrew Garrard]

Dieter: The Df is something I don't feel I understand, and that troubles me. Generally, when people use a

camera differently from the way I do, I can still understand why their approach also works. I AM happy to

adjust, but I want to know why! For example, I completely get why people usually shoot with focus only on

AF-On. I don't, usually, because I normally want continuous AF (in case the subject moves) anyway, and I

want my thumb to be free for manual mode, but it makes me more flexible to know the other style is an

option. On that note, experimenting with my Bessa last night, I realised that it was possible to turn the

shutter speed dial with the tip of my index finger (though it's a bit stiff) and release the shutter with the

side of the same finger. If THAT works on the Df, I can see the appeal - though it's a bit imprecise and the

Df doesn't have much flexibility in the other dials (no quick ISO or EC). Anyway, the more explanation I read

of how people shoot with a Df, the less likely I am to miss the "right" way to use it - and I want to give it a

fair chance. The response suggests that SOMETHING is there to learn - too many people experienced with

the current "normal" Nikon interface seem to like the Df.

 

I can see the appeal of a "set, then shoot" camera, especially for street shooting where having the camera

to the eye for long is seen as bad. The Df's sensor has merits here - you lose less than a D610/D800 by

failing to hit minimum ISO exactly. Maybe the AF doesn't matter either - go hyperfocal and rely on the

camera's auto-ISO. I get that dials help if you're usually not looking through the finder (especially the point

that the camera's meter doesn't have to be awake for you to make changes). Maybe this, at last, is the

"when does this help?" that I'm looking for. I just struggle to square that with the camera being "faster": my

camera is usually to my eye for a range of shots, using the AF and camera's meter, so the concept of not

being in a position to see what the camera's meter is doing and make exposure adjustments based on it is

alien to me.

 

Don: I'm a bit confused, here. The graphs on DxO shows that the D4 and Df sensors are very close - and

we're near the physical limits. I wonder if the Df has different noise reduction settings in JPEG?

 

Dan: I understand that the "noise" is the D800 not reading every sensor line, and interpolating. I can see it

may have been necessary, but sometimes I'd like the full resolution for live view even if the frame rate

drops.

 

Benjamin: I'll try to explain again: On the D700, I believe the aperture lever only moves as the mirror is

raised, or equivalently in the case of DoF preview. Any changes you make to the position of the aperture

lever aperture (the lens hard stop movement is different) during live view or DoF preview have no apparent

effect. This applies to changing aperture via the dial, zooming a variables aperture lens, or getting closer

with a macro lens. If the D700 had video, you wouldn't be able to change aperture from the camera there,

either.

 

On a D800, aperture changes do affect DoF preview, live view and video as they're made: the aperture lever

can move independently, including the video "power aperture".

 

Thom Hogan reports that the D600 behaves like the D700, but Bjorn has reported otherwise - unless I'm

misunderstanding Thom, or Bjorn misunderstood me. I'm curious both about the Df and to confirm D610

behaviour. While not usually critical for still shooting, it IS useful, and it's the kind of thing forum questions

get asked about (I want to help in the future!)

 

Thanks for clarifying the shutter speed shift reset behaviour. I guess that's a better way round. And I'll give

Vegas another go in better conditions - though with little interest in gambling, drinking, smoking or strip

shows, I'm not quite the target market! (The Df, I'm still deciding.)

[BelaMolnar]

<p>All, all ready said. I'm still crying for a very simple, no duplicate camera controls battery grip. Like this copied revised from a Sony. Like a FM, FE,FA motor drives.</p><div></div>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>Anyway, the more explanation I read of how people shoot with a Df, the less likely I am to miss the "right" way to use it - and I want to give it a fair chance. The response suggests that SOMETHING is there to learn - too many people experienced with the current "normal" Nikon interface seem to like the Df.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew, you seem to almost be desperate to find something to like on the Df and to justify a purchase. The fact that "many" seem to like the interface doesn't mean that you have to or will - even if you keep obsessing about that there might be something to learn. </p>

<p>We have unearthed that there is an "easy shutter speed shift" that allows you to fine tune exposure - you only have to set one dial, then use another to make fine adjustments. If you are off, you need to move one dial back to zero and another to a different setting, then repeat. Doesn't sound appealing to me since I can make the same 1/3 adjustment steps using only one dial. I am not much of a manual mode shooter though - you seem to spend most of your time in that mode. To me it is the slowest, most cumbersome way to get the results I want - and I only use it when I need to make sure I keep values absolutely constant (panorama stitching comes to mind). </p>

<p>I found a "right" way to use my cameras - but my "right" way might be totally wrong to you. Many of the ways other have described their use of Nikon DSLRs in general or the Df in particular have little appeal to me - but I appreciate that that's the way they want to use them.</p>

<p>Though I like to learn about the details on every camera I am interested in, my decision process to purchase doesn't include searching for a "best" way to do something. It starts with finding out if the camera offers something I need and whether what the camera offers is worth the price for me. If I can't find something that absolutely precludes me being happy with the camera (see D7000 issue mentioned above), then I purchase. Otherwise, I don't. For the Df, and at this moment in time, the answer is: I don't because the entire package isn't convincing enough for me to spend the money on. I can make a long list of why I would want the Df - but that list is meaningless because I already determined that I don't need it. I appreciate that it is objectively better than my D700; it's just not "better" enough. Or in other words, the D700 is still "good enough". </p>

<p>Why did I even bother to come back to this thread...</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

Sorry if I'm causing you to despair, Dieter (and thank you for coming back!)

 

No, I'm not desperate to purchase. But for almost every device on the market, there's SOME reason to

recommend it to a buyer (even if it's mostly price, availability or brand recognition), though that buyer is

not usually me. I could, today, justify purchasing almost any Nikon DSLR to someone with the right set of

specific needs - the market price tends to balance out until this is true.

 

I just want to be qualified to make the same recommendation (to friends, to people on this forum, or to

myself) about the Df: under what circumstances would the Df be the camera to buy? Nikon's marketing

has not succeeded in doing that job for me. Obviously there are - thanks to this thread - some reasons I

understand (especially regarding the "cheaper D4 sensor", though I think that magic can be

overestimated). Some uses maybe I'm beginning to only after so many posts (the Leica street shooter

approach of having all the aperture and maybe focus setting done before raising the camera to the eye).

Some I get, but think they can only apply at the cost of other issues (dedicated dials all over the camera

are less overloaded but harder to reach). Others - after claims of the camera being generally quicker to use

with the eye to the finder, or not requiring trips into the menu as much as, say, a D4 - I think I'm still failing

to grasp.

 

The Df is different. I'm not surprised it's taking me a while, and I still want to ensure that I "get it" when I

see it, if not before. The more people here who've justified wanting one, the more I learn - both about the Df

and ways to use a camera.

 

There aren't many ways to use a camera that are "wrong" to me - just ways that I'll use under different

circumstances (the same reason I have several cameras). I use manual with auto-ISO a lot because I can

balance DoF/lens performance against camera shake/subject motion and still handle rapid light changes,

but that doesn't mean I never use other modes (I sometimes care more about ISO changing or absolute

metering than shutter speed or aperture, but it's less common for me; I can't shoot this way on a camera

without effective variable ISO). There are perfectly "valid" ways to use a camera for which the Df controls

will "make sense". Deciding that I probably won't usually be in circumstances to make the choice to shoot

this way doesn't make it "wrong" for me, though it would probably discourage me from purchase. But I do

want to make sure I understand - the right circumstances may be more common than I think.

[simon_crofts]

<p>I think this thread has become so detached from actual photography and the way that cameras work and are used in practise that it has become positively misleading and confusing to any poor soul who is trying to read this thread in the hope of actually understanding the attractions of this camera (and this looks like it's going to be a cracking camera). Rather than trying and failing to understand a camera in theory, it would be better just to wait until it is available, then go out and use the camera, and report back on what worked and what didn't.<br>

</p>

[borgis_karl_johan1]

<p>Simon: admirable response, I could not agree more.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

Gentlemen: Understood. I had hoped that any logic to this camera would be better explained by those

already experienced with it, and was worried that testing with insufficient advice would lead me (or others)

to an invalid conclusion - but I will certainly try to form my own opinions and report back. I hope whatever I

say can (alongside other reports here!) help those who are not in a position to try this camera before

making a purchasing decision.

[donbright]

<p>Simon+1</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>Andrew! I do understand your need to find out why the Df is suited for some people. I think so far it's the camera for me. It will be my first DSLR. I haven't been able to take a look at one in real life yet and thus I couldn't buy one yet. I can't buy a camera sight unseen there are a lot of details that only show in person. <br>

But looks like I will get one early in January and I will report as to why it works for me and something like the D800 or D600 doesn't. </p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>But looks like I will get one early in January and I will report as to why it works for me and something like the D800 or D600 doesn't.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sounds good.</p>

<p>I too am trying to get a loaner or perhaps rent one, if necessary, during Christmas to gain some more hands-on experience with the Df.</p>

<p>Even as of a couple of weeks ago, I noticed that this thread has gotten way way too long and the topic has drifted. I am going to close this discussion, but I am sure we'll start new threads on the Df to focus on specific aspects of this camera.</p>