Nikon Introduces Df Retro DSLR

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>Nice single clicks per stop.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You do know that you can do this with any Nikon DSLR, don't you? Nice single clicks per stop. AFAIK, it simultaneously applies for the aperture as well, but can be set differently for ISO. So it's not quite the same as on the Df.</p>

<p>And this might actually be post #800 for this thread...</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>The aperture dial gives 1/3 stop increments and so does the ISO dial, so there is nothing lost in exposure precision with 1-stop shutter speed increments.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Dan, do you ever use your lens wide open, such as those 85mm/f1.4 @ 1.4 or 300mm/f4 @ f4?</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that your aperture is not always adjustable, and sometimes you want to fix it at some aperture due to either lighting or depth of field reasons. And I prefer to use as low an ISO as possible. That is why since the F5 in 1996, we have the ability to adjust the shutter speed by 1/3 stops with the main command dial. We have been doing that for 17 years. Taking that ability away for the sake of retro seems silly to me.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>You do know that you can do this with any Nikon DSLR, don't you? Nice single clicks per stop.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No., you can't, not on a D700 anyway. If I have my Nikon 50mm 1.4G on the D700, I can't set the aperture to adjust in 1/3 increments and the shutter speed to adjust in single stop increments. There's just a global setting of EV increments for both. Inevitably this will have to be set to 1/3 stop adjustments (or at a stretch half stop).</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>sometimes you want to fix it at some aperture due to either lighting or depth of field reasons</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If you need to be absolutely sure that you've fixed your aperture at a certain setting, like f1.4, you're likely to be using Aperture priority, and the shutter will fluctuate (I presume) in 1/3 stop increments.</p>

 

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>The aperture dial gives 1/3 stop increments and so does the ISO dial</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Just to verify - with a G lens mounted and the shutter dial NOT on the 1/3Step position, the aperture can be adjusted in 1/3 increments? I scanned through the manual and don't see an option in the menu to change that - so is it always 1/3 increments for the aperture when using the sub-command dial? I had assumed that the Df would be on one-stop increments for shutter speed and aperture when the shutter speed dial is NOT on the 1/3Step position and on 1/3 steps for both if it is.</p>

<p>From the manual I understand that when the aperture ring is used, f-stop is only shown in full increments - makes me wonder if I can actually select half stops or somewhere in between stops and still get the correct exposure. In other words, is this full increment for display purposes only or is it the raster the camera operates on?</p>

[dan_south]

<p>There are different approaches to street photography. If you prefer to remain unseen, a large body is a hinderance. If you're not trying to be invisible, you can choose any camera and lens that you prefer.</p>

<p>Sharp detail and clean high-ISO performance are critical to me, so a full frame body is my choice (D800E or 5DIII). I've never been adept at sneaking up on people - I'm too large and conspicuous - so I'm happy to be the tall fellow with the large camera (and optionally a tripod) who just happens to be taking pictures here, thank you very much. No one seems to mind. I think that a 70-200 f/2.8 communicates an air of "Gee, he must know what he's doing, so I guess it's okay."</p>

<p>By the way, there is a fellow in New York who does street photography almost every day with a D3S (maybe now a D4) and a 28-300 lens. You might have heard of him. His name is Jay Maisel. So, I guess those big bodies and lenses aren't totally useless.</p>

[bjørn rørslett]

<p>A lot of you guys really need to try shooting the Df for a week or two. Some of the comments are from another planet.</p>

<p>You can set apertures in 1/3 steps and also the same with shutter speed. The Df has a myriad of alternative ways of setting it up and which to prefer is up to each user. My preferred method is shooting in M mode with a fixed aperture (not necessarily set to a click stop) and +- 2/3 override of the speed by the rear thumbwheel.</p>

[borgis_karl_johan1]

<p>Du har rätt, Björn, photo.net attraherar många nej-sägare och tråkmånsar nu för tiden tyvärr. Välkommen tillbaka.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>If you say so, Borgis. :-)<br />

<br />

Bjorn, I'd love to, but I've yet even to see a Df in the UK, and a camera store is unlikely to lend me a model that I think it's unlikely that I'll buy for a week. Forgive us our confusion if the manual is unclear - hopefully those lucky enough to have handled the camera can resolve confusion in time for others to end up on the pre-order list.<br />

<br />

Simon: You're right, of course, the increment on most Nikons (b2 on the D800) applies to shutter and aperture, not each independently. The Df manual shows that this configuration option has gone missing. Custom setting f7 says that the aperture setting via the lens ring is only reported in the finder in whole stop increments. I'm not sure that it explicitly says anywhere that the aperture setting is in 1/3 stop increments; thank you, Bjorn, for confirming that it is. I would be interested to know whether we're missing a way of changing that, although I'm pretty used to working in 1/3 stops. I take your point that limiting aperture to whole stops doesn't necessarily limit exposure control (although bear in mind that the "kit lens" is f/1.8...) - but I'm also in Shun's camp about wanting better control than that. I'd really like Nikon to offer a variable click strength (some form of haptic feedback) so that, when moving the control dials, you got "Click click click Click click click Click..." etc. On the Df, I would still have liked some way to feel the absolute position of the dials - there doesn't seem to be a way to feel their position without looking at them, which seems like an opportunity missed. Some form of uneven knurling so you could locate the position would have been nice.<br />

<br />

Now I've had a rummage for this kind of detail, I'm a little less impressed by the Df manual. I guess we shouldn't be surprised - the other versions have been refined over time, and still get some glitches (trap focus on the D800, for example), whereas we can expect the Df manual to be a bit of a hatchet job. I guess it all adds to the mystery.</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>Dieter: I've been shooting an Ai-S Nikkor on the Df in manual mode. You can rotate the aperture ring to any position (not just the detents) and look a the meter to utilize fractional f-stops, even though the display is stepping through full stops.</p>

<p>Shun: Sure, If I want to use a lens wide open, set to Aperture priority and the shutter will step at 1/3 stop increments. However, I long ago set my D800 to 1/2 stops for everything, it's just quicker and cleaner to me. Who really needs 1/3 stops? For example, I was shooting the ice storm over the last couple days, and often forget to set the exposure compensation for +1 EV. Did I lose anything? No. Looking at the histogram in ViewNX 2, I was under exposed by a full 2 stops on some of the pictures, and still had no lost shadow detail. There's plenty of dynamic range, even in contrasty sunlight on snow shooting. I think all of the is just specsmanship. If Nikon made a new body that did 1/4 stops, would that obsolete the 1/3 stop bodies? Silliness.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Bjorn, at least I am fully aware that, using the main command dial, you can set shutter speeds at 1/3-stop increments on the Df. When we had our conference call with Nikon before the announcement, they made that very clear.</p>

<p>Back in the mid 1990's, I waited a year for them to work out the bugs before getting my F5 in 1997. Initially I was going to use the F4 as the backup cameras. Like you, it didn't take very long before I got used to setting shutter speeds in 1/3-stop increments with the main command dial such that I didn't want to use the F4 any more.</p>

<p>The point both Dieter and I have made is that unless you are willing to go back to the old way of restricting your shutter speed selection to full-stop increments, you have to fix the traditional shutter-speed knob on the Df to the "1/3 stop" setting and then use main command dial. As a result, that knob merely takes up space for no good reason on the Df that is designed to be small. Apparently, the retro-style Fuji X100 has the same design dilemma.</p>

<p>On all DSLRs above the D90/D7000 level, Nikon has consistently used a two-button press to format the memory card. One of the buttons is the "delete" (trash can) button; the other is always on the top right of the camera, to the left of the shutter release. Depending on the camera model, that second button could be either the metering mode or exposure mode button, as shown in the image below.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, on the Df, there is no such button to the left of the shutter release. That space is occupied by that shutter speed knob. Instead, Nikon could have used, for example, the AF-lock button with the delete button to format the memory card. I am a bit surprised that Nikon does not provide this capability at all on the Df and relegate that to the menu.</p>

<p>The fusion between old and new is not exactly an easy job. As I wrote in my opening post, some 800+ posts ago, on the Df, Nikon seems to favor styling over features. Unfortunately, they have made a lot more compromises than I would like to see and charge a price that is very close to the D800's.</p><div></div>

[dan_brown4]

<p>Borgis said:</p>

<p>You're right, Bear, photo.net attracts many no-men and bores nowadays unfortunately. Welcome back.</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>Shun: Shooting E6 in an F4 or F5 made 1/3 stops a very useful feature, especially when bracketing exposures. With modern CMOS sensors, it's more like Tri-X, get it in the ball-park and you can work with it. YMMV.</p>

<p>Also, it's pretty easy to format memory cards, it's the top option in the set-up menu. It's getting rather nit-picky isn't it? Also, how often do we format cards, I think I only ever do it with a new card.</p>

[bjørn rørslett]

<p>Shun: you didn't read what I wrote. I'm actively using - and enjoying - the shutter speed dial. It surely has a vital functionality for the Df user and is in no way "superfluous" or "obsolete". But my setup allows me to carry out an instantaneous +- 2/3 EV adjustment around that centre value already set.</p>

<p>Again, I'd wish more people had used the camera and speculated less about it.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>Shun: Sure, If I want to use a lens wide open, set to Aperture priority and the shutter will step at 1/3 stop increments. However, I long ago set my D800 to 1/2 stops for everything, it's just quicker and cleaner to me. Who really needs 1/3 stops? </p>

</blockquote>

<p>Dan, actually, if you use aperture priority, the shutter speed is not restricted to any fixed stops, full or 1/3. That feature has been available since the 1970's. The FE I bought in 1978 has it and so did the Minolta I bought a few years before it.<br>

<br>

However, clearly Bjorn needs to set shutter speeds manually in 1/3 stops and so do I. I would imagine that a lot of serious photographers have that need as well. Just this past Sunday, I was photographing a snowy egret in late afternoon sun. Metering such white bird is always challenging. As usual under such conditions, I used spot meter and full manual control, adjusting the shutter speed in 1/3 stops and checked the histogram as well as blinking highlights. You can see the image I posted to the Nature Forum back on Monday: http://www.photo.net/nature-photography-forum/00cDne<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>With modern CMOS sensors, it's more like Tri-X, get it in the ball-park and you can work with it. YMMV.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Wow, that is certainly not my approach.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Bjorn, sorry I misread what you wrote. I have played around with the Df a bit and will definitely get my hands on one for at least a few weeks.</p>

<p>However, I have used the shutter-speed knob for well over 25 years from the early 1970's when I got my first SLR to 1997 when I switched the F5. It is unlikely such control will ever have appeal to me again. And I want 1/3 EV controls, not 1/2, 2/3 or full stops. A 1/3-stop diffrence is easily visible.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Dan: And yet everyone wants a D4 sensor that provides 2/3 of a stop low light advantage over the D800/D610? I'll take all the dynamic range I can get, thanks.<br />

<br />

I'm not terribly convinced - again, without having used the camera yet, because I can't - of the merits of setting the shutter speed dial and separately dialing in a modification from it; that doesn't sound better than just setting it in 1/3 stop increments. But, as ever, I defer to those who have actually used it.<br />

<br />

Shutter speed aside, Dieter asked whether, with a G lens (or presumably an AF lens not set to aperture-on-ring), aperture is set (via the secondary dial) in 1/3 stops - and if so, whether there's any way to change that. I've not found the section in the manual which says what the step is, and the obvious way to change the step (f7 in the D800 - ironic that what's missing from a Df appears to be an F7!) seems to be missing from the Df menus. Can anyone confirm?</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>A lot of you guys really need to try shooting the Df for a week or two.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Got a spare one you could send my way? Renting one is about $330 for two weeks, a bit rich to find out what details are missing from the manual. And I am not the person to order one online, use it for 30 days and then return it without ever having the intention of actually keeping it; if I order something then I intend to purchase it - and I only return it if it doesn't meet my expectations.</p>

<p>Thanks to Dan and Bjorn for confirming the 1/3 steps for the aperture control via the sub-command dial. And Andrew, I could not find that mentioned in the manual anywhere. In any case, I would prefer to have shutter speed and aperture be changed with the same increments - so that's another reason for me to set the shutter speed dial to 1/3 Step and then ignore it. To each his own I guess. Maybe I should just ignore the Df altogether - seems to me that when used in conjunction with other Nikon DSLRs, there is a bit too much re-adjustment needed. </p>

<p>I find it quite interesting to read how people are setting up and using cameras differently - there is always the chance I may pick up something useful to try (the last time it happened when someone convinced me to try the AF-ON button (back-button focus) - now that's all I use).</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>Andrew, I think you are confusing high-ISO performance with dynamic range. Both are good, or course.</p>

[bjørn rørslett]

<p>Dieter: If you want to be on the safe side, just ignore the Df.</p>

<p>I'm slowly coming to recall why I stopped using Photo.net. Maybe time to delete my account for good.</p>

[donbright]

<p>The Df offers <em><strong>options</strong></em> for shutter speed, and aperture selection. Why is that a problem here? It's as if this additional feature is a deficit in the minds of some. </p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>The Df offers <em><strong>options</strong></em> for shutter speed, and aperture selection. Why is that a problem here? It's as if this additional feature is a deficit in the minds of some.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think I take Bjorn's advice and ignore not only the Df but also this thread from now on; it has indeed become a bit unpleasant to participate further in it.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>I think it's just the frustration of the un-availability (to some!!) of such a 'different' camera!</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>Bjorn, please don't quit photo.net.</p>

<p>Maybe this thread has run its course, and should be archived.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Bjorn: Please stay. However frustrating we (okay, <i>I</i>) may be, we're genuinely trying to learn, and your experience is invaluable. I hope you can get something back out of your efforts, beyond the the warm fuzzy feeling of having helped us.<br />

<br />

Dieter: I do think the Df is likely to be a pretty big handling change from any other Nikon. That's unfortunate for those who want one as a back-up. However, all the current Nikons have significant handling changes - more so than would be strictly necessary by their feature differences. The D4, like the D3 series, has controls under the LCD, whereas they're top-left on the D700/D800. The D700/D800 and D3/D4 switch moved the +/- buttons and AF controls (and switched default dial orientation, but you can fix that). The D610 has consumer handling and therefore doesn't quite feel like the D700/D800 (though it's closer to a D7000). the D7100 has prosumer two-dial handling; the D5300 is menu driven, the D3200 has buttons on the left rather than on the right with the D5x00 series. I can vouch, at least, that switching between a D700 and D800 is annoying; the F5/D800 switch would probably annoy me more if I had more use for the rear LCD on the F5. So the Df will involve a bit of a shift, and it'll probably be more than existing Nikon hopping. It may actually not be that bad (with some reservations of how long it takes me to adapt to Bjorn's suggested grip change): I have two keyboards at work on different computers, one being ergonomic and the other being conventional. I use the ergonomic one in Dvorak layout, the other in qwerty. Because they're so different, I never get mixed up. However, I'm useless with anyone else's ergonomic keyboard in qwerty mode.<br />

<br />

And please stay as well - you're giving me good things to check. (I may think I don't want this camera, but I'd like to find out, and I'd at least like to know about it so that I can help others who have questions.)<br />

<br />

Dan: I'm talking about the dynamic range advantage at higher ISOs. The D800 and D610 have an advantage at low ISO (with more shadow/highlight recovery); the D4/Df has an advantage at higher ISO. Which is the same thing as less noise, once the dynamic range gets low enough that you start being able to see all of it.<br />

<br />

Don: I agree about the shutter speed, although I'm a little confused (which does not mean disapproving, just that I have to learn) about the handling for those who are using the dedicated dial. The aperture functionality seems to be less configurable than other DSLRs <i>if</i> there's no way to switch step size, though - since I usually use 1/3 stops anyway - it wouldn't actually bother me. Of course, you can't get everything in one interface, and if the Df's interface was genuinely expected to be better for all users than the conventional interface, Nikon would never have made the F4/F5 handling change. But it's useful to understand exactly what's gained and what's lost.<br />

<br />

Belatedly: Shun: I <i>wish</i> the Df's price was close to the D800! (Again, expect more dubiousness from those in the UK until the stocks level out and the prices drop. Though it hasn't made a D3x any cheaper.)</p>