Nikon Introduces Df Retro DSLR

[Landrum Kelly]

<p>Photography--like life--has gotten so complicated. I think that some of the appeal of the D<em>f</em> is the desire to go back to an earlier style of shooting, perhaps even an earlier style of living. Now, whether or not this camera really is a step in that direction is quite another issue, but I think that its appeal rests upon a love of the perceived values of an earlier era. That love is not always a simple nostalgia, rather a desire for a style of shooting in which one relied minimally on electronic gadgetry. There is some irony in the fact that the D<em>f</em> includes redundant manual and electronic systems that are anything but simple. Even so, one may choose the manual focus option and bypass some of the electronic complexity.</p>

<p>My fairly recent infatuation with the D3s (coming as it did after almost a year of shooting the D800E almost exclusively) represents a reaffirmation of the joy of simplicity--from shooting all the way through to post-processing. This complicated D3s camera affords me the option of shooting in a simple style in a variety of venues. Even when I was shooting on the Blue Ridge Parkway with both cameras at night back in late summer, I found myself gravitating back toward the simplicity of the D3s, in spite of its rather low resolution. Many times I did not even want to use the tripod--and did not. (I did not always get the shot, but at ISO 12,800 very often I did.) More recently I have wandered through the streets of small towns, often carrying a tripod, but rarely using it--and never carrying a flash over the entire last year of shooting (except for the built-in flash on the D800E).</p>

<p>I do think that the yearning for simplicity does not have to be a generational thing, I started out with a used shutter priority Miranda Auto Exposure with a 50mm f/1.4 in 1977, but it will be interesting to see how many younger shooters might (or might not) be drawn to the D<em>f</em>. Whether it will simply be out of infatuation with all things retro, on the one hand, or part of a genuine quest to recover a [supposed] simplicity of another era is an interesting question. Perhaps younger shooters will find renewed inspiration in getting back to the holy trinity of photography: the three exposure variables. Mastering those in a variety of situations is complicated enough.</p>

<p>I suppose that we shall have to wait for more persons to shoot the camera before we get a fuller sense of the appeal and interest that this camera has generated.</p>

<p>As for myself, I will keep walking around with my D3s with the ISO turned up to at least ISO 3200 so that I can simply get fast shutter speeds. (I do not shoot in bright sunlight too often.) I will when possible leave a tripod in the trunk of the car, and all flashes will left at home.</p>

<p>In other words, I will simply walk around and shoot, day and night. I rather like the idea of doing that. I think that I would try that if I were a new D<em>f</em> owner as well. Perhaps I have romanticized low-light cameras, perhaps not. Some say that the D600 is equally good as a low-light camera, but <a href="/photo/17615574&size=lg"><em><strong>a stop or stop and one-half can make a lot of difference at the margins of acceptable light.</strong></em></a> It is the difference between shooting at 1/30 second and 1/60 to perhaps 1/80 second. That "small" margin can be an enormous advantage if one wants to shoot hand-held, especially at the margins of acceptable available light.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[bms]

Ralph,

 

No doubt this is not meant for pros.... But enthusiasts.... The packaging design alone actually is pretty "fancy", black vs

the usual gold.... Maybe taken from the Leica play book to make you feel better about your purchase expense :)

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Lannie: How about 2/3 of a stop? :-) But I concede that every little helps.<br />

<br />

Ralph: I can't spot a difference between the options available under f2 (multi-selector centre button) on a Df and D800 (which Nikon <i>do</i> think is "professional"), other than that it's labelled "ok" on the Df. The "f1" menu seems the same on the D4. Am I missing something? But the Df is certainly under the consumer camera list on the Nikon support web site.<br />

<br />

Simon: Thank you for sharing (and I can recommend the keyboards from <a href="http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/">these guys</a> if you're having finger problems). I agree that fingers need to do many things at once in the normal Nikon design, though I'm glad they don't require much to do it. I don't switch between manual and the other modes very often, so I manage not to get confused. I'd kind of prefer exposure compensation (and ISO, which I can't change one-handed) to be configurable to Fn or DoF so I didn't have to take my index finger off the shutter to change it. (And no, you're not supposed to meter on mid-grey, you're supposed to use the matrix meter or to use exposure compensation with a spot meter, I suspect. I'm guessing at Nikon's logic.) But I don't see the Df's positioning of these controls as better.<br />

<br />

It sounds as though the thing you think Nikon have over-done (putting the controls on the right hand) is what I think they haven't done enough (you can't change <i>everything</i> with the right hand). Hand-holding a 200 f/2 or even a 70-200, there's no way I could get my left hand back to the camera, even as far as the aperture ring; the AF mode switch (why can't I configure that to be on my right hand?) is worse, and the controls on the top left of a D800, or bottom middle on the D4 (eyebrow switches vs tongue switches, as I think of them) are completely impossible to access without putting the camera down. If you only ever put a smallish lens on the camera, I can completely see the merits of an aperture ring (though it gets a bit iffy with a variable-aperture zoom, and you get the aperture setting rather than the adjusted exposure value from extension unless you look through the finder). Essentially, with any lens that would work well on a rangefinder, I have no problem with rangefinder ergonomics. With anything bigger, that justifies a DSLR, I prefer to have one hand busy supporting the camera/lens combo (so I can't move it much), working the zoom or focus rings, and free to get at the AF and VR controls on the lens. It's too busy to adjust aperture as well. My right hand is much more mobile. But I've long asserted that Nikon designers must test their ergonomics with a normal lens, or on a tripod. I guess you claim the reverse!<br />

<br />

The difference may be less one of how we use the camera (and I do feel your concerns) than of what we use the camera with. A DSLR has to do everything, and I'm sure that's why the aperture rings went away as a primary input - they make no sense with a big telephoto. Design a DSLR such that it'll be compromised with a big lens and you <i>can</i> put more on the left hand. For what it's worth, I dropped by the camera section of a department store last night (in the vain hope they'd have a Df, though since their idea of current cameras were a D7000, a D3100 and a D5200, you can guess how that went - I don't have a local proper camera store at the moment) and had a play with an X-Pro1 and an X100s. I still genuinely like the ergonomics, though their size (especially, for what it is, the X100s) still shocks me. And, with my weird vision issues in my right eye, using a diopter control in a rangefinder camera is kind of freaky.<br />

<br />

Benjamin: Thanks for sharing. Glad it's going well for you! (And any camera will have quirks. I consider it our duty on this forum to find them all and whinge until Nikon fixes them. At least, the ones that don't result from conflicting requirements, which is why I keep asking how others shoot their cameras.)<br />

<br />

Brian: Ah, I wasn't sure if you were happy with a film Nikon you picked up that recently. For all my ergonomic concerns, I'm going to concede that a Df will be a little more pleasant to use than a D1x!<br />

<br />

Dan: That's very interesting. If Nikon have fine-tuned the supporting electronics such that the dynamic range of the Df at low ISO approaches that of the D610 and D800 sensors (and I could believe that the D4 electronics are compromised by the needs of its read speed, so it's possible), I withdraw many of my objections to whether this sensor is an obvious fit for this camera. Though I still think a little more resolution helps, even if the single SD slot is a little limiting on that front. I'll be very interested to see what DxO or sensorgen have to say when they test the Df. I'm genuinely supportive of a cheaper camera bridging the gap between the D800 and D4 at high iso, even if I'm not sure about *this* camera and I think the scale of the difference can be over-stated. Not to be a D800 owner in denial, or anything. :-)</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Benjamin: I'd missed the new packaging. That's going to make a mess of the Nikon displays (although it may help with finding the thing - hunting for a particular lens in a wall of gold can be tricky). Having bought a few bits of recent consumer electronics, people have definitely learned from Apple that a bit of decent cardboard improves the apparent experience. If Nikon are catching up with this, that's good (although I quite like being able to fold Nikon's packaging flat for storage). Odd that when they start making the camera silver again, the packaging goes black to compensate!</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>That's very interesting Andrew, I can perfectly see what you're saying about long lenses and the difficulty with the left hand in those cases. I don't use anything longer than a 135mm, so that consideration doesn't arise for me.</p>

<p>It may well be that the likes of the D800 etc. are optimised for sports shooters and others with an emphasis on long focal lengths. I reckon the design philosophy is based around the 24-70mm, 70-200mm lens range and people who use those. I really don't like those zoom lenses - too heavy and too slow and too obtrusive, so for me the right hand control dial approach doesn't work at all.</p>

<p>You mention that "you're not supposed to meter on mid-grey, you're supposed to use the matrix meter or to use exposure compensation with a spot meter, I suspect. I'm guessing at Nikon's logic." I think you're right - but Matrix metering for me is inadequate - it relinquishes too much control and is too unpredictable. I like to make creative choices about the exposures based on zones of exposure, and I can never fully know how the Matrix is thinking and deconstruct that decision to impose my own will on it. So I'm left with the option of either spot or centre weighted. Spot is fine, but a bit too purist in fast-moving situations. So I use centre-weighted as a compromise. It is predictable (one of the reasons that you have to read the manual, to learn what weight is attributed to different parts of the scene) and I therefore know how pretty much how much compensation to apply in any situation. For that reason, I need an exposure compensation that is very fast and easy to use and allows me to make constant small corrections as objects move around the scene (someone in a dark jacket walks into the centre of the frame etc.). For the same reason, decoupling focussing from the exposure is critically important, and also having an effective temporary exposure lock that I can adjust away from in increments.</p>

<p>I'm switching all the time between Aperture priority and Manual - using Manual when a consistent exposure from picture to picture is important. Incidentally, you don't need to press a button for exposure compensation - you can reprogramme it to do exposure compensation just by rotating the rear control dial - and I've done this because I'm using exposure compensation constantly. So you don't need to take your finger away from the shutter release to do it, up and down every second or two. That would drive me bananas if I had to press a button to do it!</p>

<p>When I switch to Shutter priority, exposure compensation switches from the rear dial to the front dial, and the rear dial which had been exposure compensation becomes the shutter control. In Manual mode (and effectively in Aperture mode) the front dial which had controlled aperture now controls exposure compensation. This kind of reversal is crazy, and on the D700 at least there is no way of customising it to make it logical. Just a detail perhaps, but an example of how the complexity of the controls lead to illogicality and confusion.</p>

<p>The result is really complicated - but the basics don't need to be - one dedicated control that always controls aperture, one that controls shutter speed, and one for focussing. There must be ways of making those work in semi- or fully auto- modes too - as Fuji has succeeded in doing. </p>

<p>I'm hoping the FD may have achieved this, fingers crossed. I haven't tried it yet so can't comment, but it looks very promising.</p>

<p>But I suspect that you may have put your fingers on the nub of it Andrew - that the D800's etc are aimed at users of heavy zoom/telephoto lenses, while the likes of the DF may be aimed at the professional user who users lighter, most likely prime, lenses and isn't planning sports etc. use with long heavy telephotos. </p>

 

[raczoliver]

<blockquote>

<p>When I switch to Shutter priority, exposure compensation switches from the rear dial to the front dial, and the rear dial which had been exposure compensation becomes the shutter control.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> I think you need to look at it differently for it to make sense. Regardless of exposure mode one command dial (main command dial by default) controls shutter speed and the other (sub command dial by default) aperture. They always do this, unless you put the camera in P mode, and even then it's not much different. In manual mode it is pretty straightforward. In shutter priority, you control shutter speed with the main, and exposure compensation, hence aperture with the sub command dial. The only difference as opposed to manual mode is that the camera selects the "correct" aperture as your starting point. In aperture priority, you select aperture with the sub command dial, and exposure compensation, hence shutter speed with the main command dial. The only difference compared to manual mode is that the camera selects the "correct" shutter speed as your starting point. Except for exposure compensation, P is essentially the same as S, but the camera chooses the starting point for shutter speed as well. In P, the camera selects both shutter and aperture, and you can change the shutter speed without changing exposure using the main command dial, just like in S. The sub command dial is used directly for exposure compensation, which in this case may alter shutter speed or aperture.</p>

<p>So the main command dial is always for shutter speed, and the sub command dial is always for aperture as long as you don't go to P mode. Of course, you can swap them in one of the custom settings if you want to. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>In Manual mode (and effectively in Aperture mode) the front dial which had controlled aperture now controls exposure compensation.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I am not sure I understand this. In manual mode, if you want to use exposure compensation (which I don't see why you would unless you are using auto-ISO and want to control ISO through exposure compensation), you'd have to depress the exposure compensation button regardless of whether you have easy exposure compensation turned on or not, and turn the rear, or main (not front) command dial, no?</p>

<p> </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Simon: Equally interesting (I said it would be educational if we could work out what about these cameras pulled us in different directions!)<br />

<br />

I see long and zoom lenses as being the killer feature of a DSLR; I'm very happy with a rangefinder at wider angles, except for macro. Not that this makes a DSLR bad at wide angles, it's just that a rangefinder is good as well. Most of my commonly-used lenses are big - other than a 50mm, even my 35 f/1.4 Sigma and 85 f/1.4 Samyang are reasonably chubby, and the 14-24, 70-200 and superteles are increasingly humungous. I'm very happy using my 200 f/2. But I have to admit that there are times when a smaller lens that I'd use differently has some appeal - I'm just not sure I'd start with something the size of a DSLR! Maybe the Df changes that, and Nikon really are competing with the (not exactly small) Fujis. Incidentally, I do see an f/2.8 zoom as a compromise, but it lets me control perspective and depth of field shot by shot, whereas I'm stuck with a focal length if I use a prime. (Except my superzooms, which give me much more control over perspective but very little over depth of field - but my beloved 28-200 from my D700 doesn't really account itself well on my D800.)<br />

<br />

Do you know, I'd actually missed that Nikon had specifically said 75% weighting to the (I knew selectable) centre area? I'm so used to the matrix operation being a proprietary mystery. I pretty much never use centre-weighted, and always either let the matrix have a stab at it (and check how it's doing) or directly spot, at which point I can usually decide what tonal range I want the subject to be in. I can see how you would judge exposure for centre-weighted (and I have to with some of my other cameras), but it had never occurred to me to use it in general - largely because, while I can see not wanting to meter off the focus point, being forced to meter of the centre of the frame doesn't seem any better to me. I'd have found a spot + AE lock to be more useful, but I can't claim to be a pro at this - the matrix is good enough that I tend to let it get on with it most of the time.<br />

<br />

The easy exposure compensation (or easy ISO) does work in aperture priority, but since I typically want to change both aperture and shutter speed according to circumstances (I usually use manual + auto ISO mode) I usually don't have a dial free to do exposure compensation. It does occur to me that I don't know whether easy EC becomes available again if you're using the aperture ring to set aperture; most of my lenses are G, but I could experiment with those that aren't. I'm now curious - I agree that not pressing a button <i>if</i> the left hand can set aperture would be nicer. If you're telling me this works, I knew I'd learn something! Even if it doesn't help me with most of my lenses. :-)<br />

<br />

The problem is that you need <i>six</i> rings to make a camera work: aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compensation (pick at least any three of these), focus, zoom. Having these on dedicated controls while leaving them all under the fingers is pretty tricky, though I'm warming to my idea of putting an aperture ring around the camera's lens mount (like the Canon S-series) where you could move it either left-handed or with the middle fingers of the right hand. The Df really doesn't have them under hand; the Fujis are a bit better, helped by the shorter lenses (though some have apertures driven from the camera now).<br />

<br />

If the Df is designed to be compromised with bigger lenses but better with smaller ones, that's laudable, though Nikon haven't done an amazing job of explaining what the ergonomic advantages are (and I don't buy "slows you down", a.k.a. "gets in the way" as an "advantage"). Maybe the Df does meet those goals, though you can colour me a little dubious. When I get a chance to play with a Df, I'll ensure that I give it a go with a shortish non-G lens (ironically, <i>not</i> the kit 50mm) and see how it behaves.</p>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>I'm an old timer, starting photography with a Nikon F. And then. Most of the models, all of them with the available motor drive or motor winder, for better handling, and I was very happy with all of them. <br>

Now, . . . I get the <strong>Df. . . .</strong> Beside all those wonderful writhing, comments, analyzing every angle and detail, etc., etc., for me, it is much more simple. It is a camera like any top Nikon models with a different body style and controls, quality, IQ, and up to you if you like it or not. Handling for two days and shooting, I realized, holding the camera a little flimsy, specially with bigger lenses, has not enough grip on the camera, and my little finger hanging below the camera feel funny. It is a big mistake from Nikon who design a camera where an optional, additional extension, battery grip is not available and almost impossible to create one, because the bottom design, specially the not logically placement of the memory card, next to the battery under the same battery door. I like the shape, the size, specially when I compared to my D3s and D4, but I like to have and option if I want a more extended body to fit to my not to big hand. And I like to have an optional battery grip, without any control knobs, like all the previous film cameras motor drives has only an on-off switches. I hardly ever using the existing controls on my DSLR cameras in portrait mode. My opinion is, Nikon made a big mistake with this design configuration. I hope, somebody going to figure out a design for an optional battery grip, <strong>no duplicate controls needed!</strong></p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Oliver (sorry, you got in before me!): Agreed that the dials for M, S and A all do the same thing for the mode they're designed in, and you can configure exposure compensation or ISO to the "spare dial". P is an oddity to itself, but short of a "program shift" dial, it's hard to see what to do about that. It's true that if you think of EC as being a "primary feature", that it keeps moving is weird; Nikon had to move <i>something</i>, and I guess decided that keeping aperture and shutter speed in a fixed place was priority.<br />

<br />

It's rare (but occasionally the case) that I want EC in manual mode for things other than ISO - I've discussed that <a href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00c4Ym">here</a>. However, I do shoot most of the time in manual mode with auto-ISO, and therefore do need EC. I'd need it more if I didn't trust the matrix meter; I can live with it being a little (press a dial, not take my whole hand off the grip like the Df) slow if I'm spotting off a subject, but I can see more of a problem if I was centre-weighting as Simon seems to. As you say, we're out of dials for this to work in manual - <i>unless</i> you use the lens's aperture ring, and if this allows the camera to let you repurpose the dial that would have been used for aperture. I've never tried this, but if it works, I might use it from time to time, which justifies the amount of time I've spent wittering on this thread about a camera I don't intend to buy!</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Bela: Oh dear. Sorry you're not happy. People make third-party grips for the D5xxx series (I believe tethered to the camera via the remote shutter release socket), so I'm sure something will turn up for the Df - though the need for an "SD extension" sounds a bit tricky. I've not checked - does the battery door cover come off? That would help...<br />

<br />

Edit: RRS make some base plate + grip combinations for cameras like the RX1. Should they make something for the Df, I hope it solves your handling problems!</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>Oliver:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>In Manual mode (and effectively in Aperture mode) the front dial which had controlled aperture now controls exposure compensation.<br>

I am not sure I understand this.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry, I think that was back to front it should have read: "In Manual mode (and effectively in Aperture mode) the front dial which had controlled exposure compensation now controls aperture." Hopefully that makes more sense (though I don't have my camera in front of me at the moment, so working from memory - which is part of the problem, to check how the controls work in different modes I have to get hold of the camera and work it out. If it were intuitive, I would just <em>know</em> how it worked in all modes without having to check!)</p>

<p>Again, I can't remember exactly what happens in P mode (I rarely use it) but I think you're right that it's similar to S. Which means that it's the opposite of A and M mode - aperture is no longer controlled by the front dial but by the back? Again, I'm working from memory here, but this kind of reversing of functions between dials is the very opposite of user friendly.</p>

<p>My solution has been to optimise the camera so that it works in two modes effectively: A and M modes, and to try avoiding the other modes except in the most exceptional circumstances. That way my fingers have more or less learned what to do. But it's a far from ideal situation.</p>

<p>Andrew: Interesting discussion, thanks!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I see long and zoom lenses as being the killer feature of a DSLR</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I guess it's a whole other long and involved conversation, probably not for this thread, but my personal perspective is a great dislike of long and zoom lenses (though of course especially long lenses have a place and can be essential for certain uses. Just not for me.) I don't find a fixed focal length a limitation at all - and I'm pretty fast at switching lenses, not much slower than zooming. I'm juggling lenses switching them several times a minute - often have a second lens in my hands while I'm taking pictures ready to switch out and take another picture at another focal length, and I love it as a fast, light intuitive way of working. That's just my perspective, I don't expect everyone else to be the same.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>It does occur to me that I don't know whether easy EC becomes available again if you're using the aperture ring to set aperture</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Aperture rings work fine with exposure compensation. All my lenses bar one have aperture rings, and I use them in combination with 'easy' exposure compensation fluidly. No problems there.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>being forced to meter of the centre of the frame doesn't seem any better to me</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Typically I'll meter of a convenient object, like the floor, which has a large area of consistent tone, and fix the exposure there (with suitable compensation eg. if it's a dark floor (either AEL button, or lightly depressed shutter) then I can take pictures as long as I want with consistent predictable exposure. You can then do minor adjustments to the flow using the easy exposure compensation button as the light brightens or darkens. I find it's an easy way of getting consistent accurate exposures so that you barely have to think about exposure and can concentrate on composition etc. With something like Matrix, if for example a light bulb appears in the scene, it'll be thrown right off and you spend most of your effort fighting the meter - I have found.<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The problem is that you need <em>six</em> rings to make a camera work: aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compensation (pick at least any three of these), focus, zoom. </p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

I don't want zoom of course, so that's one less for me. exposure compensation can be merged seamlessly and logically with aperture and/or shutter, as it is on the Fuji, so that's another less. I agree that seamless ISO control would be nice (the D800 etc. style control certainly doesn't achieve that at the moment. Perhaps one to be cracked for the future). So that brings it down to seamless control of Aperture, Shutter and Focus as the three fundamentals. Needing three easy to reach, consistent, controls that are dedicated to those purposes and pretty much bother else.<br>

<br>

By the way, I missed out the other big problem with D800 etc. controls - that there is no 'end stop'. It is really fundamental that I should be able to twist the aperture (or shutter speed) to, say, it's widest open setting without having to read numbers or do multiple twists of a dial - it should be a single, swift, positive movement. And I should be able to feel one stop clicks away from there. I don't want to have to count one-third clicks and add them all up, or wonder whether I'm turning the control dial in the right direction or not.<br>

</p>

[bms]

<blockquote>

<p>Benjamin: I'd missed the new packaging.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew... I got the all black verson, maybe the silver one comes in silver cardboard? Now THAT would make for a contrast with gold!</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I realized, holding the camera a little flimsy, specially with bigger lenses, has not enough grip on the camera, and my little finger hanging below the camera feel funny.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Others, too, have noted that bigger lenses are not well balanced, and yes, the grip makes it more difficult. This camera wants to be shot with primes and smaller zooms... I guess that this was intended. I got rid off my larger zooms with my D800, as I am very happy with a"walk around zoom" for my Oly. If I still had a repertoire of zooms, I would probably not have considered the D<em>f</em>. Then again, if you can shell out for a 200-400mm or the like, a D610 may be a minor expense :)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>It is a big mistake from Nikon who design a camera where an optional, additional extension, battery grip is not available and almost impossible to create one, because the bottom design, specially the not logically placement of the memory card, next to the battery under the same battery door</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree that this is one of the more annoying features, it's so "point and shooty". I do not mind so much the sole card slot, but here I guess<em> function followed form,</em> instead of vice versa</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>Andrew, I also meant to say: for me the DF (potentially, I haven't used on yet, so can't comment on whether it is all I hope for) fills a gap that a rangefinder like the Fuji can't. While I love the Fuji as far as it goes, for doing something like shooting a wedding, especially with wider to standard lenses, I really need through the lens view. I need to see whether the precise angle of the portrait is flattering ow just works. I also need visual confirmation of how the focus looks. Rangefinders are great, but I wouldn't have the control that I need, and the parallax difference in perspective is unacceptable. I also need focus tracking on moving objects (dancing etc.) and need visual confirmation on what it's locked onto. And so on and so forth. A rangefinder doesn't really cut it for that use. DSLR's like the D700 D800 are about as close as it's got and I've just had to learn to work around the ergonomics to get the result.</p>

<p>But <em>potentially</em> something like the DF sounds extremely attractive as a camera for fast moving situations like a wedding. I just hope the detailed implementation works out for me - I'm looking forward to trying it.</p>

<p>p.s. lightness and quietness are also huuuge advantages for me. </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Simon: Good luck trying it! I'd hope the in-finder information of the Fujis may also help you, but I admit that my rangefinder vs SLR comparison really dates back to manual-focus considerations: when the F was launched, its advantages over, say, an M3 were mostly to do with longer lenses, macro lenses and (later) zooms. A modern DSLR has, I concede, moved on a bit.<br />

<br />

So you can definitively configure easy exposure compensation to work in manual mode so long as the camera is using the aperture ring for aperture selection? That's interesting, and I'll certainly have to play with it. (I suspect that <i>doesn't</i> work on the Df, since its exposure compensation is via the fixed dial only AFAICT.)<br />

<br />

Of course, whenever we request a feature from Nikon, we're in danger of assuming that the way we use a camera is the only way to use a camera. I don't think Nikon can compromise a design with zoom lenses just because some people don't use them... but I appreciate that the result may be compromised as a result.<br />

<br />

The "end stop" argument is interesting, especially since the location of the "end" is sometimes debatable (certainly with aperture). I wouldn't object to Nikon picking up some ability to give haptic feedback through the dials when an end-of-range has been reached (and I wouldn't mind a bit of "are you sure?" resistance when moving the lens to an aperture that you've selected as "emergencies only", for example). It does, obviously, stop when you reach one end of the range already, even if you can keep spinning. You can, of course, configure the normal Nikon interface to work in whole-, third- or half-stop steps, something that doesn't work quite as nicely with fixed dials like the Df's. And you can reverse the direction if you don't like it. :-)<br />

<br />

Still, clearly the current interface bothers you. I worry that a Df won't help (and, while I like the Fujis, I'm not sure they're all that perfect either, though there's a lot more under-hand than a Df). I'll be interested to hear how you get on if you try one, though.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>So you can definitively configure easy exposure compensation to work in manual mode so long as the camera is using the aperture ring for aperture selection?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew, I meant in Aperture priority mode (not sure that one would want to use compensation in Manual mode, seems to me a recipe of mistakes) - with AIS lenses - easy exposure compensation works well, it's very slick.</p>

<p>With Af lenses that have an aperture ring, the aperture ring is entirely disabled unfortunately with the D700, you can't use it in A or M or any other mode. Which is a shame, because it's really much better than using the command dials. Manual lenses with aperture rings work beautifully with it though.</p>

<p>The ideal would be AF lenses with aperture rings that work - like on the Fuji x100. Nikon haven't got there yet!</p>

[raczoliver]

<p>Andrew, I have actually read that thread where you listed your three reasons to use EC in manual mode. The second one is a valid point, but very rare, at least with my shooting style. I don't think I have ever bumped into a situation like this. I respectfully disagree with your third reason:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You are using manual mode with fixed ISO and know that you are metering off a subject that is not mid-toned. For example, you are spot metering off a face, or you know that the meter is behaving erroneously (for example by examining the histogram of the first shot in a sequence). Rather than have the camera nag that your exposure is "wrong", you can simply apply exposure compensation.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I think you are being inconsistent here. The camera is not "nagging". It is giving you the exact same indication as it does when you have EC dialled in in any of the automatic modes. In manual mode you simply apply exposure compensation by selecting an aperture/shutter speed combination other than what gives you a centred meter reading. The reading simply shows you the amount of exposure compensation you are using, not nagging that your exposure is "wrong". Again, it's just another way to look at it.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

You can, of course, use the aperture ring of the lens on a D700 or any high end Nikon DSLR. There is a custom function that needs to be

set that will let you select the aperture from the lens.

 

The exposure controls on the vertical grip of cameras that have vertical grips, is an essential feature that makes it possible to use the

vertical grip. What is nice is that on well designed cameras, the controls of the right hand are symmetrically positioned relative to the

position of the hand. This makes the use of the camera much more smooth.

 

I don't like Nikon's accessory vertical grips, they ergonomics are poor compared to integral vertical grip cameras, in my opinion. In 16-17

months I still don't like the D800's grip. On the D4/D3 series, the grip is wonderful. I only use the one on the D800 for necessity. I suppose

the Df is intended to be used mostly with smaller lenses where the small, lightweight camera body makes sense. The salient feature of

the DSLR of course is in its name; the mirror and real-time optical viewfinder that the mirror makes possible. It is useful irrespective of

whether the lens is large or small. The Df seems to have been created for walking around and enjoying photography without too much weight, including weight due to a big lens.

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Quite interesting to read how people are using their cameras - it shows that a camera manufacturer can't possibly do right by everyone.</p>

<p>As for me - I needed the optional motor drives on all my film cameras (FM/FM2/FA/F3) even when the one reason (film advance lever pulled out to activate meter is a bit of a problem for a left eye shooter) no longer applied; the main one always had been that the camera was uncomfortable to hold without the additional grip (and the F3 grip proved too small - which is why I suspect the Df grip will do too). I loved the F4 (especially with the optional small MB-20 battery pack) - though that grip was actually a bit on the large side. The F5 was my only "pro-style" camera with integrated grip - while I liked the feel, I didn't like the weight. </p>

<p>As for DSLRs - my first, a D70 didn't have an additional battery grip but handled OK without - the camera was actually a bit larger than the newer D80/D90/D7000/D7100 bodies. On the D200, initially I couldn't do without the battery grip (necessary to balance the 300/4, 80-200/2.8, and 80-400 lenses and also because battery consumption was high) - once those bodies were used only with smaller lenses, the battery grips came off and weren't missed. I use one D300 with grip (again, for the larger lenses) and one without (smaller lenses); on the D700 I don't use the grip because the rig gets too heavy.</p>

<p>Another word about "ergonomics" - Nikon started a new trend with the D7000 - smaller camera with a more squarish grip - totally uncomfortable for me. The D7100 is marginally better, as is the D600/D610. Even the D800 isn't as comfortable to hold as the D300/D700 (the latter being a bit on the heavy side). I usually carry my cameras in my right hand, and the right hand usually also holds the weight of the camera while shooting (only with larger and heavier lenses do I switch to supporting most of the weight with the left hand (and quite happy it is no longer needed to adjust an aperture ring).</p>

<p>The one small camera (really small) that surprised me on how well it fits my hands is the NEX 6 - that molded grip is pure bliss and makes the camera were comfortable to hold and carry. Since I strictly use it with manual focus lenses, except for focus and aperture, all other functions are done with the right hand.</p>

<p>Metering: I use A mode for most of my shooting, and S whenever I photograph birds or airshows. 100% matrix - if you'd take spot and center weighted away form me I wouldn't miss them at all. Exposure compensation is used all the time though - with experience I can predict when matrix will "err". I only use M mode when I need to make certain exposure stays constant. Growing up with having to adjust shutter speed and aperture on the all-manual FM/FM2 has "weened me off" that mode for good - just glad I don't have to deal with both. AutoISO is on all the time - I only turn it off on occasions were I need to make sure it stays were I want it to be.</p>

<p>The D70 was my first camera for two things: the two-command dial setup and AF. I was apprehensive (the same way many in this thread seem to be) - but after I got used to it, there is no turning back. Same goes now for decoupling shutter release from AF operation; I will not even consider cameras without AF-ON button.</p>

<p>Manual focus - seems to me I am in Ilkka's camp - I used B and E screens in all my pre-AF-era film cameras - that split-prism thing in the center never worked for me and was dark most of the time anyway. The microprism ring around was too narrow to be of much use.</p>

<p>Green dot focusing indicator: doesn't work well on the D300 - it flickers and isn't precise. Works quite well on the D700 though - pretty much spot on. But I am only using MF lenses with maximum aperture of f/2.5 or slower.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Oliver: Indeed, but you may feel the need to be told how far your exposure compensation is from what <i>you</i> think is right, not the camera's. But I agree that this is my weakest point! (In my defence, how about using this with an infrared filter, for which you know the camera's filter is going to be confused?) I find the D800's matrix is off quite often even in normal use, and tweaking it for the situation seems to help. As for spotting off extreme exposures, I should probably try it more for ETTR scenarios. But mostly I use it for auto-ISO. :-)<br />

<br />

Ilkka: I think you're right about the lightweight design goal. As you say, you can (and sometimes have to) use the aperture ring on a D700 etc. (though I still wish it was possible to indicate an AI-S lens was fitted so the auto-aperture worked), but the manual isn't clear on whether this means you can start using the spare dial for easy EC/easy ISO (they're listed as inapplicable in manual mode, but that may only be because the dial isn't available on a G lens).</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>The Df has 2 controls that are difficult to use namely the EC and ISO. I would rarely use the ISO dial, for now I am shooting film so it's a matter of course. With the Df I think I only change the ISO depending on condition for example going indoor from being outdoor or vice versa so I would not use it very much. I prefer it locks as it would be bad if it changes without me knowing as I often shoot in manual and guessing the exposure. As far as EC although I have need for it when shooting in A mode but I have found that it's too cumbersome on all cameras I have used. The F5 I have to press a button and turn the dial and then press the button again and turn the dial after I got done with the shot. Leaving the EC off zero would bother me. With the F3 which is similar and I think is more difficult to set the EC than the Df so I don't use it either. What I do with the F3 (which I found very difficult to do with the F5) is this. Example I want to increase exposure by 1 stop from the meter. I would stop the lens down 1 stop. Press and hold the exposure lock, open the aperture back to where it was and release the shutter. Doing so I would use the same aperture but the shutter speed would slow down by 1 stop. I can do similar thing with the F5 but I found it's way too difficult to hold the AE lock button and turn the front command dial at the same time. It's easier to turn to M and set the aperture and shutter speed where I want. I know many would compensate by changing the ISO and not aperture or shutter speed but I doubt that I would ever do that. </p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>BeBu, I have shot with the Df for a few days now. I am not experiencing any issue with adjusting the ISO and EC dials. I can easily do either with my left hand while I hold the camera with my right hand. For the ISO (which I change often) I press the release button with my left thumb and rotate the ISO dial with one of my fingers. For the EC dial (which a rarely use) I press the release button with my index finger and rotate the dial between my thumb and middle finger. Very easy to do. In fact, it is easier than the D800, where both hands are involved for the ISO change, and the right hand must use both the index finger and thumb while simultaneously holding the camera for the EC change, which is a remarkably poor arrangement.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

Dan: I agree they the two-handed ISO on the D800 (and other Nikon DSLRs) is annoying. There are some

workarounds, to some extent. With "release button to use dial" you can hop the right hand between the ISO

button and dials (while, in my case, I balance a big lens precariously on my left hand). There's the

aforementioned "easy ISO", so long as you're not in manual mode. Incidentally, I just checked my D800

with an AI-P-equivalent Samyang and, with aperture set by the ring (not very ergonomic on that Samyang,

BTW), neither easy-ISO nor easy-EC work in manual mode, despite the dial being available; I guess Nikon

missed a trick. That's another one for "if I ever get to hack the BIOS". Anyway... There's also improved

auto-ISO as of the D800, with a dependence on focal length for the shutter speed (I requested this of Nikon

before moving to mostly manual shooting, and it's very useful for aperture priority maintaining a

handshake-free shutter speed with a zoom). My workaround is just to use auto-ISO in manual mode with

EC, since at least I can get all of those controls right-handed, but I may work differently if I could map the

ISO and EC buttons to Fn. Getting my left hand on shoulder buttons isn't really possible with a big lens

unless I rest the lens on something.

 

I don't like having to move my index finger off the shutter release to get at EC, but I don't move my grip - I

still have the camera gripped by the base of the thumb and two fingers, and my thumb and middle finger

hold the camera stable by pressing in on the dials. I need those fingers in position anyway for manual

shooting - and again, the right hand isn't weight-bearing. The button isn't ideal, but compared to moving

the whole hand and needing two fingers and a thumb to change the setting, I'm yet to be convinced that

the Df is "better" for EC - you have to change grip even if you're normally using an aperture ring. For ISO,

it's more even, and the biggest niggle I have about conventional Nikon ergonomics. I suspect the interlock

buttons bother me less than most, since I'm reasonably used to the F5 dials.

 

BeBu: I'm surprised you find that easier than using the EC button, but interesting workaround. I expect

more of this from people with non-AI lenses, since AE lock combined with DoF preview will likely be less of

a faff than setting the aperture in two places.

[bebu_lamar]

<p>My primary concern with EC is that I have to return it to the 0 position after the shot and I may need to make the next shot immediately without compensation. </p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Handled a Df at the local store. First impressions:<br>

<br />- the grip works better than expected. It's OK to handle the camera with a light and short lens (like 50/1.8G). With a 14-24/2.8, not so much (one needs to get used to holding the rig in the left hand by the lens at all times - like one has to do with even longer lenses like the 70-200/2.8). I can see the appeal of this camera when used with small lenses but I wouldn't want working with it with larger zooms. The feel of the camera in your hand is different from that of a D600/D610, for example, different but not necessarily better.<br>

- one-hand operation of the EC dial is possible, for the ISO dial not so much (wouldn't bother me much since I would have the camera on AutoISO most of the time anyway). <br>

- shutter speed dial is a useless accessory taking up valuable real estate place; I would have this on 1/3 step all the time and use the main command dial. Dial locks on 1/3step, X, and T.<br>

- sub-command dial (in front) works fine; with the index finger on the shutter release, the middle finger is placed just right to turn that dial. Reaching for the shutter release changes the grip on the camera - not a good thing IMO.<br>

- the neckstrap is going to be in the way when reaching for the shutter release.<br>

- AF-ON button placed right were it's supposed to be<br>

- left-eye shooter with glasses - no way I can see the entire viewfinder<br>

- didn't have much chance to try manual focusing but didn't get the impression that the focusing screen is any different from that of other Nikons.<br>

- the camera is light but feels nice - not the cheap feel of an OM-D E-M5 for example.<br>

- I do like the sound of the camera - it's quiet (the Sony A7 I tried in comparison was louder IMO (and that camera doesn't even have a mirror!)).<br>

Biggest gripe for me -the EC dial on the left side. It should be were the PSAM dial is - or were Sony puts it on the A7/RX-10 (though they didn't put a lock on them so it can be turned easily accidentally). While I can see myself reaching over with the right hand while looking through the viewfinder and changing the EC value, in reality I will likely take the camera down to make that adjustment. Not a biggie if one is shooting something static - but an issue if one needs to follow any kind of action and wants/needs to make adjustments on the fly. <br>

In summary: the camera surprised me somewhat; there's a lot I like about it and some things I don't. One of them is the price; to me this isn't a $2750 body but a D7000 body with a different UI. At the very least it should be priced as a competitor to the D610 (with which it shares the body structure, AF module, shutter etc) and not as a competitor to the D800 - which this camera isn't.</p>

[bjørn rørslett]

<p>Using the Df a few days and the logic of operation becomes second nature. It requires a different handling than the typical DSLR. For example the statement 'the strap comes in way of the release button' is only true when you lift and operate the camera as the typical DSLR. I used my Df for the better part of a week without the strap attached so I observe where my fingers should go and simultaneously, where the strap would be. Then I realised you should not grip the camera from the rear, but cradle the grip from below in your right hand. The all of a sudden all camera controls and your fingers are ideally positioned relative to each other and handling the camera is a breeze allowing you to work it very fast indeed. I've spoken to a number of Df owners in the last week and all tell the same story of the Df being different and must be treated accordingly. As soon as one realises that and make efforts to "understand" the camera, its handling becomes easy and natural.<br /> <br /> Focusing manual lenses is far superior to using the same lenses on my other DSLRs. A lens such as a 35/1.4 AIS or 50/1.2 AIS is near impossible to focus accurately on most digital cameras, but not so on the Df. They snap in and out of focus. Liveview is remarkably accurate even when used with wide-angle lenses such as the 15/3.5. No other Nikon camer offers the same combination of excellent viewfinder and Liveview.<br /> <br />After a few weeks use of the camera I can say honestly that this is the most intuitive and logical digital camera ever used by me. This is a camera for photographers not a computerised machine. The 'retro' style in fact will be appreciated after you become familiar with the camera. The designers have made a number of decisions, some obviously perceived controversial, with an aim to give the photographer an optimised tool to make the Df not a replacement for any existing Nikon camera, but an augmentation of the Nikon camera range. The camera is not perfect - what camera is that - and will create divided opinions. Basically you either love it or complain why it hasn't video, pop-up flash, thumbwheels all over etc. Each to his or her own.</p>