How much are you willing to disclose when selling your classic?

brian_m.1 · September 25, 2012

We are all selling 40+ year old cameras. If the camera is outright defective, it must be clearly disclosed but where are the gray areas? What about minor glitches, random hiccups, or anything that can be chalked up to age. The bar isn't very high in this market. The standard disclaimer as we all know is something like the camera worked last time it was used, or I picked this up somewhere and I know nothing about cameras. I have bought many classics online and not one of them promised that they even work.

riffeym · September 25, 2012

Anybody buying a 40+ year old camera SHOULD know that you are always taking a chance. That being said, I disclose everything I know about the camera even occasional glitches. Now, if I haven't used the camera personally, I say so. But, I do rundown a mechanical checklist of camera functions and say "this works" or "that doesn't work".

andylynn · September 25, 2012

I disclose what I know about the camera. Make sure the photos accurately convey the cosmetic condition and if any

functions don't work, say so.

Michael R Freeman · September 25, 2012

This should be an easy question to answer. You disclose what you know. Everything. Period. In other words, you don't withhold information on condition or defects. If you know of a glitch, then you disclose that glitch to your prospective buyer. To do anything else is both unethical and dishonest. How would you want to be treated if you were the buyer of one of these 40+ year old cameras and not the seller?

-

"The bar isn't very high in this market."

</blockquote>

The goal of every successful seller should be to raise the bar, not sneak under it.

craigd · September 25, 2012

I don't see much of a gray area here. You tell potential buyers as much as you know, and you also should make clear how thoroughly you have inspected and tested the camera and how competent you are to evaluate its condition. "I know nothing about cameras" is no excuse for conscious omission of relevant information. "It worked the last time it was used" is understandable if the camera was used recently; if it's been on a shelf for 20 years, then I would think the seller could afford to at least click the shutter a few times before trying to sell it. Certainly, though, nobody should expect a used camera to come with any more of a warranty than the seller's return policy.

I don't know what you mean by "anything that can be chalked up to age." Earlier this month, I shot with a 60-year-old Japanese rangefinder that works perfectly and looks like it was made yesterday, so how is age an excuse for anything? If the camera has light leaks due to decaying foam, or the meter or shutter speeds are inaccurate, or a knob is hard to turn, or a part is loose or missing, you should say so. Purely cosmetic issues like worn leatherette, dents, scratches, or engravings made by previous owners should be documented with photographs (in focus, correctly exposed, and sensibly illuminated -- this alone will put you ahead of many eBay sellers), or at least mentioned if the forum you're advertising in doesn't allow images.

I've bought a number of classic cameras online that were understood to be in full working order. If I buy something from KEH in EX condition, I can assume it works, and that they will mention any significant defects. Even on eBay, I've seen (and bought) cameras that were described as having recently undergone CLAs, which would make no sense if the cameras didn't work. In general, I've found that most sellers I've dealt with were reasonably honest, and in most cases the seller's competence to evaluate the camera can be judged by what they say (and don't say) about it and the quality of the photos they take of it.

SCL · September 25, 2012

You should disclose everything. That has been my motto in selling for almost 10 years. That way a buyer can make an informed decision, knowing the facts, without recriminations. I try to provide lots of photographs of the good, bad and ugly as well. I've only had one complaint in all those years...from a guy who bought a used Leica lens from me...it froze up during a winter delivery, and instead of contacting me...he had it CLA'd and left me unfavorable feedback. I contacted him and offered a full refund + the cost of the CLA...but he wanted the lens so badly, and got such a good price, that he declined my offer. Anybody who discloses less than everything is either ignorant of what he should disclose or a less than honest businessperson.

brian_m.1 · September 25, 2012

I am sure the sort of disclosure I read here are followed by some. It is just that I never see them. Take the light seals. This is a prime candidate for failure and yet almost nobody talks about it. I recently bought a Canon FTb that looked and worked perfectly. It even had a working battery. Many rolls later I discovered that it is afflicted by what I later learned to be "shutter cap", only at certain shutter speeds and not even all the time. I can work around it. I suppose I have to also provide a link to a tutorial on the subject of shutter capping so people know what I am talking about.

SCL · September 25, 2012

Brian - sometimes ignorance of the sellers is bliss, these days often accompanied by "I don't know much about cameras, but....". I always assume on older cameras, uless otherwise stated, that seals may need replacing...sometimes the goo shows up in the sellers' photos...and I'm sure they haven't a clue. Shutter cap is a different animal. Rule #2 on older cameras...they may need a CLA. Often I ask the sellers if and when a camera I'm interested in has had a CLA, if they don't know, I suggest they reduce the price (if it is a best offer) to incorporate that, same for lenses. Buying blindly often results in unexpected problems.

Lou_Meluso · September 25, 2012

Don't mistake ignorance for deception. Often people selling Dad's old camera know nothing about that camera or cameras in general. Certainly seals and their condition or shutter capping would not be something in their circle of understanding.

When I sell a cameras on eBay you get a full run down of the cosmetic, mechanical and optical condition along with superb photographs. You can tell from the way a seller describes a camera and presents the photographs if they are experienced with the items. Buy from them.

Buying from the general public means rolling the dice. Sometimes you get a gem, sometimes you get jammed. Bid accordingly.

craigd · September 26, 2012

Brian, you sound like you're looking for excuses to not reveal imperfections. Remarks like "I suppose I have to also provide a link to a tutorial..." only reinforce this impression. Nobody has suggested you have to educate buyers about common terminology.

jim_momary · September 26, 2012

I just bought and received a Canon FTb, in "perfect working order".

Went to put a battery in it, no contacts at the bottom of the battery cup, no wires, some remnants of green mercury battery crud. One wonders how the seller knew the meter worked?

So, today I would answer ... HONESTY is the best policy. Caveat emptor when dealing half a continent away is challenging at best without "omissions".

Jim M.

steve_mareno1 · September 26, 2012

I have my own standards, which are hopefully better than what the bar standards are. I feel it's always better to tell the truth about everything. But I've found that, in the end, we all set our own standards. I could care less whether or not my stuff sells. I just list it w/ a full and honest description, and always offer a full refund, including all shipping fees both ways, or a generous partial refund, if I missed something by accident. Mistakes happen, but it's better to accept full responsibility on mine, an apparently novel idea in this culture these days, and move on. Why would anyone think otherwise? I have found others sometimes have this same standard, so it's not just me.

Jim, I own a Canon FT QL (great camera!) that has the same lack of any sort of contact in the battery chamber. Since this is the only FT I've ever seen, I don't know if ours is defective or just how they all are, but I put a little 1.35V Wein cell hearing aid battery in mine and it works a treat, so maybe yours will too.

yog_sothoth · September 26, 2012

Honesty is the best way to avoid returns and negative feedback.

dennis_w3 · September 26, 2012

Here's a description of a camera I just listed. I research the camera and check everything I can and list any defects (this one just doesn't have any that I can find). I don't hold back on praise for nice ones, either.

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<li>Nikon F, serial 645XXXX. According to published records, it was built in late 1961 or early 1962, third year of production</li>

<li>Body is exceedingly clean, without dents, dings, bends, paint loss, or scratches. Very minimal bright marks on bottom surface</li>

<li>Leatherette is in great shape, without lifting or tears</li>

<li>Shutter works on all speeds, sounds correct to my ear; not professionally checked</li>

<li>Self timer works correctly</li>

<li>Film advance works correctly</li>

<li>Prism is absolutely beautiful, crystal clear, locks and releases correctly. This is the highly desirable prism that sets the F apart visually from all other vintage SLRs</li>

<li>Camera back releases correctly, without binding or sticking</li>

<li>Lens is the Nikkor-S f2, without haze, fog, fungus, or scratches. Silky smooth focus and snappy iris. The serial number indicates manufacture around the time the camera was built, so it's likely the original lens. Very clean, even to the paint on the focus ring, which is nearly spotless.</li>

<li>Inside of camera is clean, curtains look great</li>

<li>Flash shoe works correctly, makes good electrical contact</li>

</ul>

All in all, this is an exceptional and sparingly used example of the early F, with the non-threaded, non-metered, classic prism. I've used this camera for hundreds of photos that were exposed nicely using the "sunny 16" rule, which, correctly applied, yields results equivalent to, and sometimes better than metered exposures. I've enjoyed it but I also have a Topcon system with all the lenses, so this Nikon has to go.

Since this camera is slightly more than 50 years old, there is no warranty expressed or implied, although I will refund purchase price if it is not as I described it. I ship to the US some overseas countries, not China or the Mideast. Shipping is an even $10 Priority with delivery confirmation, which is a bit less than what I've been charged for shipping similar weight cameras in the last year or so. Paypal only.

Please read the description and look closely at the photos; they show the actual item.

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ljwest · September 26, 2012

This should be an easy question to answer. You disclose what you know. Everything. Period. In other words, you don't withhold information on condition or defects. If you know of a glitch, then you disclose that glitch to your prospective buyer. To do anything else is both unethical and dishonest. How would you want to be treated if you were the buyer of one of these 40+ year old cameras and not the seller?

</blockquote>

Precisely. There are no "grey areas".

As a seller, one should provide an accurate description, as complete as possible, and detailed photos - particularly of any damage or excess wear - of the actual object for sale, where appropriate. If you forget something (it happens), add it to the description, or provide it to the buyer before money changes hands.

If you don't know something, make that abundantly clear also, so that it can't come back to bite you later.

david_carroll4 · September 26, 2012

I might talk something up a bit, but I'd never lie about something or fail to disclose a problem. Buying and selling old cameras is a fun hobby for me, and if I have screwed someone over by lying to them, then it ceases to be fun.

Michael R Freeman · September 26, 2012

"I might talk something up a bit, but I'd never lie about something or fail to disclose a problem."

</blockquote>

Emphasizing the positive aspects of an item is just smart (and basic) marketing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. Not doing so would be kind of foolish, but what separates good e-sellers from the chaff is their willingness to be forthright about <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060196/">the good, the bad, and the ugly</a> (if applicable).

marc_bergman1 · September 26, 2012

I have also found that honesty is the best policy. I disclose everything, the good and the bad. I take many pictures. I have found that this policy works well. I seem to get many more bidders than other similar auctions and a better price.

A listing saying that "the camera worked the last time I tried it", means the camera probably doesn't work now. "Speeds sound good" means that the slow speeds are probably off. It may be worth the chance to bid if the price is very low and you want a project camera.

Dennis W,

That is the kind of ad I like. Buying from an honest, knowledgeable seller is a path for a smooth transaction.

qalam · September 26, 2012

Apart from the moral and ethical imperatives to be honest and forthcoming, there are consumer protection laws in many jurisdictions that

require full disclosure of all defects of which the seller has or ought to have knowledge, even in "as is" sales by private, non-commercial

sellers. In some jurisdictions, that obligation does not apply to defects that an ordinary person could be expected to see without having

special knowledge or professional experience.

brian_m.1 · September 26, 2012

I notice everybody agrees that any defect must be disclosed, but that is not the end of the story. Cameras are used to take pictures. Are you willing to guarantee results too? Just because the rewind mechanism works and shutter clicks and the lens has no fungus (BTW, why would fungi choose to live inside glass is beyond me) does not mean that it takes good pictures too. If you really want to be honest, you have to include actual pictures taken with the camera and authenticate them in some way to prove that they were produced by that camera. How far down this disclosure path are you expected to go?

dennis_w3 · September 26, 2012

What is your point here? The consensus is that issues should be disclosed while pointing out the good or great features. Whether a camera takes good photos is mostly up to the person behind it. Obviously, if the meter is off 5 stops or the lens is out of focus calibration, those would be items that should be disclosed. If you've used the camera and have taken nicely exposed and sharp photos, you should disclose that as well. Kinda looks like you're baiting people here or splitting hairs for the sake of argument.

Michael R Freeman · September 26, 2012

It's simple. Let your conscience be your guide. Disclose and describe what you know.

How far you want to go to ascertain what you know about the working condition of a used item is up to you. The more you do the more confidence that will inspire in your potential customer. Obviously there is a limit, but that's up to the seller (you) to set. There is clearly a point beyond which the cost of "inspection" will not provide a corresponding return to make it worthwhile to you. That's why a "return policy" is important to most buyers of used equipment. No reasonable buyer expects a seller to be 100% perfect 100% of the time, or at least they shouldn't, but buyers want to know that if you miss something important that you have their back and will make it right.

Intentional or not (I suspect not) your OP implied that there was a grey area whereby it was okay to not disclose certain known defects or problems. There are sellers that obviously seem to think this is okay, but that is not the opinion of those who posted above.

Again, it's not complicated. :)

q.g._de_bakker · September 26, 2012

It certainly is not complicated. Agree 100%. Don't lie. Don't withhold any information that would/could influence a buyer's decision. But to make sure it's 100% clear too (and most likely superfluous that i do) i would point out that if you do not investigate the condition of an item, or not fully, you will have to disclose that too. Tell a buyer not just what you know, but also what you do not know about the item.

h._p. · September 27, 2012

I've only been caught once, and then by a bricks and mortar trader, who should have known better. I got my money back in full, plus the return postage, though, so the only loser was he who had been "economical with the actuality".

I try to do as I would like to be done by, so I provide clear pictures and an honest description. It's worked, so far, for the 250+ items I've sold over the years. I always accept returns without question, provided the buyer pays postage both ways. Only one buyer ever took me up on this; he bought a an Apple iBook from me, not realising he couldn't run Windows on it.

If other people are dishonest, that's their problem. I take the view that we shouldn't let the blackgards drag us down to their level.

ljwest · September 27, 2012

Are you willing to guarantee results too?

</blockquote>

Heck, no. All you can do is state what you know. Short of having a complete test lab to verify that each shutter speed is within MFR tolerance, and that the lens is perfectly aligned, you cannot guarantee results. And even then, you have no idea of the competence of the purchaser.

Just because the rewind mechanism works and shutter clicks and the lens has no fungus (BTW, why would fungi choose to live inside glass is beyond me) does not mean that it takes good pictures too.

</blockquote>

Granted, but photography is much more than whether or how the equipment functions!

If you really want to be honest, you have to include actual pictures taken with the camera and authenticate them in some way to prove that they were produced by that camera.

</blockquote>

Which only proves that you can make good images using that camera. It has no bearing on whether the purchaser can do the same.

How far down this disclosure path are you expected to go?

</blockquote>

Again, you divulge what you know. No more, no less. If you have taken photos with it and they all come out fine, state that. If you are aware of a problem, like a scratch on the film from the transport, a hot pixel, a slow shutter curtain, etc. then that must be divulged.

On the other hand, if you bought it in a box of stuff at a garage sale for $5 (for the box...), there's really no reason you should have to do extensive, and possibly expensive (Battery? Film? Processing?, etc.?), testing just to make a couple bucks on the camera, and keep it out of the landfill. But, you need to state that plainly. "PeNiCan EOS 3500D - Clean but untested" or some such title might be appropriate in such a case.

There are always going to be buyers who think "used camera" means the same thing as "Factory new, never used, works perfectly, and will turn you into Ansel Adams or Annie Leibovitz when you press the shutter". There is nothing you can do about those folks.

Just be honest in your description, divulge any known flaws, and don't get carried away with hyperbole in trying to make it sell. An honest buyer is far more attracted to an honest seller than any of the "tricks" shady sellers will try on auction sites, etc.

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