Ruined film: what does a newbie need to learn?

[anand_n._vishwamitran]

<p>I ruined a roll of B&W film after successfully developing 2 rolls earlier. What am I doing wrong? Specifics:</p>

<p><strong>Roll #1: </strong>Tri-X @ ISO 250, 9:15 <br /> Found scum on some frames, moved to distilled water for my 2nd roll</p>

<p><strong>Roll #2:</strong> Pan F+ @ ISO 50, 11:30<br /> Fantastic negs, great contrast, decent shadow detail, exquisitely sharp. I was really looking forward to the 3rd roll.</p>

<p><strong>Roll #3:</strong> Acros @ ISO 80, 15:00<br /> <strong>Result</strong>: Undeveloped, blank negatives. Disappointed.</p>

<p>So what did I do wrong? I have a theory and I'd like to confirm this.</p>

<p>For Roll #1, I created Rodinal working solution 1+50 in a bottle. I threw this out for Roll #2 because I noticed scum on the final negatives, and re-made developer using distilled water.<br /> <br /> I re-used what was left of the Rodinal 1+50 working solution for developing the 3rd roll.<br /> <br /> Could this re-use be why? If so, do I need to be similarly wary of stopbath, fixer and photo-flo i.e. can working solution for the last 3 be re-used?<br /> Thank you.</p><div></div>

[anand_n._vishwamitran]

<p>To be clear about my developer re-use, I did not re-use chemicals that had already developed film i.e. I discarded the solution in Rolls 1 and 2 that had been used to actively develop film. What I did re-use was the remainder of the working solution that I had created.</p><div></div>

[larrydressler]

<p> Using Rodinal at any dilution you use it one shot unless you are going to use it within 1 hour.</p>

[bob_sunley]

<p>Today's lesson is only mix what Rodinal you need for today, then pour the leftovers down the drain. It doesn't keep.</p>

<p>Mixed stop bath keeps for weeks/months, so do most fixers. DO NOT mix up Photoflo ahead of time, it goes skunky real fast.</p>

 

[cj8281]

<p>So to clarify, you mixed one batch of developer at 1+50, you made enough solution to develop 3 rolls of film. You developed 3 rolls of film using this batch that you mixed all at once.<br>

Did you develop all the films one right after the other or was there some time in between developing?</p>

[cj8281]

<p>As far as the other chemical, they are all reusable up to a point. <br>

Kodak indicating stop bath will change color when it becomes exhausted. <br>

Fixer can be reused until it is exhausted also. You can do a simple test to determine how well it is doing. Take a small cup and put some fixer in it, cut a small piece of film, I use about an inch length of 35mm, place a drop of fixer on the emulsion side of the film, after 30 seconds place the film piece in the cup of fixer. Time how long it takes for the drop to disappear as the film clears. Do this test when you first mix your fixer, this is your base time. Do this test periodically. When the time it takes to clear is double your initial time then it is time to replace your fixer. I also keep track of how many films that I have fixed with a batch of fixer.<br>

I mix a fresh batch of Photoflo every 6 to 8 weeks or when I notice that it is starting to get crud in it.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Clay glad to see you here.... I love this as you are worthy.</p>

[leighb]

<p>The working life of diluted Rodinal is only a few hours.</p>

<p>When you finish a developing run you should discard all diluted Rodinal, even an unused portion.</p>

<p>Lesson: Mix only what you need.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

[larrydressler]

<p>There is an exception to using used diluted Rodinal for a second roll. For microfilm and TP. :)</p>

[cj8281]

<p>I should add, for the fixer test to use the same film as different films will clear at different speeds. Using 1 film to do all the tests with will make the results more consistent.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Yes T grains fix slower and I need to say sometimes if it seems on the last leg and you have nothing left just agitate the heck out of it and do it longer... the nice thing is if you have bad fixer you can refix if you do it in a couple of days and keep the s film in the dark or semi dark or as some will say even in the light.</p>

[russ_kerlin]

<p>With the third roll you developed, are any frame numbers along the edge of the film visible?</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<blockquote>

<p>"Found scum on some frames..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's unusual. Are you sure the film wasn't overlapping, preventing free circulation of the developer and fixer?</p>

<p>BTW, that's a terrific photo of the slightly blurred hands on the piano. Sometimes the best "portraits" don't show faces, but reveal more through suggestions and glances.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"The working life of diluted Rodinal is only a few hours."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Rodinal mixed to working solution is not quite as fragile as its reputation seems to indicate. I tested this theory a few years ago. I mixed a batch of Rodinal 1+50 for a two-reel tank, developed two rolls, then saved the same batch of Rodinal until the next day and developed another roll, which turned out fine. But it's not a good practice.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Lex I too tested it and ran a few rolls over a day... At roll 2 I noticed a drop in shadow detail.. Roll 3 I noticed an increased highlight... Roll 5 I noticed nothing... not even rebates.. :) But then this was all in the same day.. I have heard resting a dilute mixture makes it stronger... I doubt that...</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>My test rolls in recycled Rodinal weren't anything important so I didn't scrutinize them closely. They were good enough to enlarge or scan as-is. But, again, I won't advocate that practice.</p>

<p>By the way, after recycling that Rodinal on three rolls over a two day period, I then added the Rodinal mixture to a witches brew print developer of various recycled print and film developers, which I kept in an open tray (covered with plastic wrap between uses) for about a month, which I used only for non-critical prints. Mostly I was curious to see how long recycled developers could be used and still produce useful - not to say good - results. After a month I finally got bored with the ultimate miser's test and dumped the horrible brew, but it was still active. The prints began to be a bit murky.</p>

<p>Regarding developers gaining strength with age, I do recall some discussions about D-76 having that odd characteristic. Do you remember some posts here several years by a fellow from Spain (or was it Italy? Portugal?) who ran some methodical tests to evaluate the activity of D-76 over a six month period? If I'm recalling correctly, his tests confirmed that D-76 stock solution did indeed gain strength up to a certain point, then gradually began to lose potency toward the end of the six month cycle. I'm not sure which other developers might share that quirk.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>I seem to remember this and it was one of the reasons people used to say to give D-76 24 hours in the jug after mixing before you use it I believe.</p>

[j_ri_l]

<p>As already pointed out, reusing Rodional is the problem here. If you dilute it 1:50, it means you only use up to 10 ml of developer. One roll of film will use pretty much all of it and there will be nothing left for the second roll.</p>

<p>Rodinal is a one shot developer. You don't reuse it.</p>

[anand_n._vishwamitran]

 

<p>Thank you to all who responded! I seem to have had beginner's luck in the first 2 rolls. Leigh's comment summed up consensus pretty well, and Bob Sunley seems to be advocating discarding PhotoFlo too (contrary to some of the others).</p>

<p>Based on this, I plan to treat Rodinal as 1 shot, reuse stop and fixer for a few rolls (thanks Clay for the 'snip' test) and to be safe, mix PhotoFlo only as needed. In general, I'll just be aggressive discarding chemicals: they are far cheaper than my memories. </p>

<p>To answer some of the questions that sprang up:<br>

Clay, roll #2 was developed a day after roll #1 (but roll #2 used a fresh batch anyway). Roll #3 was 3 weeks after roll #2 i.e. with diluted Rodinal that had been sitting for 3 weeks.</p>

<p>Russ, no frame numbers are visible in the 3rd roll. What should I conclude from this?</p>

<p>> Lex: Are you sure the film wasn't overlapping, preventing free circulation of the developer and fixer?</p>

 

<p>There was some of this as well because I hadn't wound the film properly on the steel reel. In addition, there were spots with almost colorless scum behind which the negative was mostly well-developed. </p>

<p>> Lex: BTW, that's a terrific photo of the slightly blurred hands on the piano. Sometimes the best "portraits" don't show faces, but reveal more through suggestions and glances.</p>

<p>Thank you Lex! Coming from someone who I've learned from a lot by just lurking and reading, I'll take this as a huge compliment :) Here's one more where the whole face isn't shown. Focus was on the left eye.</p><div></div>

[anand_n._vishwamitran]

<p>2 follow-up questions:</p>

<ol>

<li>The original batch of fixer/stop bath/photo flo remain in plastic bottles at room temperature with tight but not airtight caps. Does anyone see a problem with this?</li>

<li>Developer/Fixer/stop bath/photo flo stock solutions that I purchased remain in vendor packaging - plastic bottles at room temperature. I suppose that is ok?</li>

</ol>

<p>My underlying concern is how to preserve stock solution (vendor product) and working solution. I would hate to have my 4th roll ruined! Thank you for helping me learn and observe best practice.</p>

[bms]

<blockquote>

<p>My underlying concern is how to preserve stock solution (vendor product) and working solution. I would hate to have my 4th roll ruined! Thank you for helping me learn and observe best practice.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have long times between developing film and usually mix developer new. Everything stays in manufacturers bottles (Rodinal, TMAX, Kodafix) and so far have not had a problem. I have kept Xtol and Hypo stock way beyond what longer than I probably should have and not had issues, but I am probably asking for trouble</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Anand, sorry to hear about the problems. If you are just starting in B&W film developing I think you need to simplify things while you are learning. Of the three rolls of film you have developed, each has been a different brand and ISO speed. And while a lot of people like Rodinal I consider it an advanced developer with certain quirks, one of them being the extremely short shelf life. My strong recommendation is to pick one film, something standard like Kodak Tri-X or Ilford HP5, and stick with it until you have a definite reason to use something else. And pick a standard developer like Kodak D-76 or Ilford ID-11 (they are identical) and stick with it until you have a reason to change. Both Tri-X/HP-5 and D-76/ID-11 are extremely forgiving. The stock solution developer once mixed from powder lasts for at least 2-3 months. It can be used undiluted, or diluted 1:1 if you like. (No need to dilute at all, and if you do dilutre, it's much easier than calculating a 1:50 dilution.) Good luck.</p>

[leighb]

<p>Rodinal has been my standard developer for over 50 years, and I've always had excellent, consistent results from it.</p>

<p>But I follow the rules: 10 ml of concentrate per roll of film (or per four 4x5 sheets), mixed just before use, and never re-used.</p>

<p>Although diluted Rodinal should be used immediately, the stock solution will keep for decades, even in partially used bottles.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>no frame numbers are visible in the 3rd roll. What should I conclude from this?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's an indication that the film was not developed at all. The numbers are put on the film at the factory, and we know that they were exposed properly. If you don't see them after processing, either you skipped the developer entirely or it didn't do its job.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

[thirteenthumbs]

<p><strong>Photoflo:</strong> I got some eye droppers from the local Walgreen's. Sample:<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Walter-Products-Glass-Eye-Dropper/dp/B002GDFC6G/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326831765&sr=1-1-catcorr">http://www.amazon.com/Walter-Products-Glass-Eye-Dropper/dp/B002GDFC6G/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326831765&sr=1-1-catcorr</a><br />At the end of processing I remove the tank lid, fill the tank with water to cover the reel(s), fill the dropper with stock photoflo, empty the dropper or add drops from it to the center of the tank, agitate gently then remove the reel(s) after about 30 seconds.</p>

<p><strong>Chemical bottles:</strong> Oxygen is what degrades the chemicals. Many photo chemicals are topped off with nitrogen at the packaging plant. <br />Prior to closing the chemical bottle I take a deep breath away from the bottle, hold it for 20 to 30 seconds, exhale directly into the bottle and immediately put the cap on tight.</p>

[russ_kerlin]

<blockquote>

<blockquote>

<p>no frame numbers are visible in the 3rd roll. What should I conclude from this?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's an indication that the film was not developed at all. The numbers are put on the film at the factory, and we know that they were exposed properly. If you don't see them after processing, either you skipped the developer entirely or it didn't do its <a id="itxthook0" rel="nofollow" href="../black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00Zsc8?start=20">job</a>.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Leigh is correct. Either the developer was 100% exhausted (which seems unlikely - I would expect even reused Rodinal to have <em>some</em> developing power capable of producing faint images) or you somehow put the roll in fixer first, which folks have been known to do.</p>

<p>I also agree with Craig's comments. Simplify things. Stick with one film/developer combination at first. Perfect your technique and then move on to different variations. That won't guarantee that you won't occasionally make a mistake (like I do from time to time), but it will minimize the chance of doing so and better equip you to diagnose the mistake when it does occur.</p>

[paul_hoyt]

<p>How to handle the problem of oxidation of developers. I use glass marbles; they are cheap, they wash clean easily, and they displace the air in my liquid negative developer. I use a smaller bottle when the developer is half gone from the stock bottle, marbles can do only so much as the liquid volume diminishes.</p>

<p>Paul</p>