"Experienced" Professionals

[andrew_west5]

<p>Alright, just a wee rant here. Fair warning.</p>

<p>I've been applying at all the various McStudios in the area, from Picture People and JC Penney to the chain of studios that are either owned by Walmart or just joined at the hip (if you have a Super Walmart by you, and you do, you'll know what I'm talking about). </p>

<p>Two things that all of these establishments have in common:</p>

<p>- They want people with retail experience. The applications stress this, the assessments are sales-oriented, and the interviewers want you to "sell" them your cellphone. Or a pencil. That's all well and good, but photography experience and technical skills are also written off as unnecessary. They can teach that, they say.</p>

<p>- Their marketing materials all highlight the skill and experience of their photographers. The website that inspired this thread used the phrase "experienced professionals" as a mantra.</p>

<p>I'm not bitter. Sure, the phrase "fun filters" makes my blood simmer a little, but I can handle it. What actually makes it start to boil (but not really) is that these companies discount the value of technical ability and experience while simultaneously using it to sell themselves. If you're hiring people based on their summer job at Old Navy, you can't market the photographers in your hire as being experienced professional photographers. Not without intentionally deceiving customers, at least.</p>

<p>I should probably clarify here, I find it more amusing than anything. While I do genuinely believe they're deceiving customers unfairly, these places have their target market. The people who like "fun filters".</p>

[railphotog]

<p>I discovered this many years ago when our son, just out of a two year photography course at an area community college, applied for jobs at similar locations. They didn't realy want someone with photographic ability, they just wanted someone who could PHD - Push Here Dummy on their pre-programmed photo setups. I think they were against real photographers operating their cameras because they might want to change things, do something different and slow the process down. The same at a one hour photo lab, they weren't interested in hiring people with photo knowledge, just clerks to push buttons.</p>

<p> </p>

[evan_goulet]

<p>Keep in mind that they do not want a photographer who can be creative and adaptive. They want someone who will put out a product that is consistent with their corporate identity. Homogeneity is the name of the game. It's why Domino's pizza tastes the same whether you are in Rhode Island or Sanibel Island. Someone with major retail experience is familiar with this. They are also familiar with dealing with the public. A person going to one of those studios is more likely to be put off by bad customer service than by run-of-the-mill photography. Honestly, you can look at almost any product that these stores sell, and you can apply the same philosophy. </p>

[johne37179]

<p>These sort of studios are set piece factories that will train any individual to take the image. It takes no photographic skill. However, it does take retail skill. These studios are not about photography, they are just another retail counter like any other in the store.</p>

[andrew_west5]

<p>I think you gents are right, photography experience can be a hinderance with these places. I've applied at the photo labs with the same result.</p>

<p>I think I'm doubly screwed because I also mention working toward a photography degree. That's got to be the last thing they want.</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>I would say that such portrait operations really <em>are</em> about polished, professional retail sensibilities (which include engaging manners, a customer service mindset, a sense of what the customer really wants and can afford, etc.). Because the formulaic photographic products in question aren't about creativity or a technical understanding of what's going on with those photons and JPGs and whatnot, it makes perfect sense to avoid would-be Artsy Primadonna Types and to look instead - deliberately and thoroughly - for people who know how to generate and take care of customers. Makes sense to me.</p>

[richardsperry]

Makes sense to me too.

 

Customers who buy photos at Walmart know, or really should know, what they are getting. People who shop at

Walmart know it's not Nordstrums. They can't afford that and know it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

If you want to work at a studio which does everything your way, then you can open one.

[David_Cavan]

<p>I remember being in mid early 30's, with three young boys and a job that barely paid the mortgage and car loan, while managing to keep food in the house. But because Sears offered a "McPhoto" studio we now have annual photos of our family going back three+ decades, and those photos are amongst our most prized possessions. We could never have afforded what it cost to go to a professional's studio (we checked into it - that isn't just a guess), and I've been around retail enough to know that the only reason the stores could offer the prices they did was because they set up appointments, got you in and out in 15 minutes and kept the factory moving. So I am completely in favor of this kind of service being offered - today I can afford better, and enjoy that, but I'm glad these services are still there.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>The key thing as pointed out - is the ability to get the "acceptable" pose in 15 - 20 minutes - then go sell the client the packages and add-ons.</p>

<p>Some studios in the malls take a little more personal approach - like Glamour Shots or Flash! - but what I've found there is that they have Photographers and Sales People. And the two are not one and yes, you do pay for that extra body.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[andrew_west5]

<blockquote>

<p>I would say that such portrait operations really <em>are</em> about polished, professional retail sensibilities (which include engaging manners, a customer service mindset, a sense of what the customer really wants and can afford, etc.). Because the formulaic photographic products in question aren't about creativity or a technical understanding of what's going on with those photons and JPGs and whatnot, it makes perfect sense to avoid would-be Artsy Primadonna Types and to look instead - deliberately and thoroughly - for people who know how to generate and take care of customers. Makes sense to me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So, you assume that experience or technical understanding precludes an ability to generate and take care of customers? Anyway, if I've come across as an Artsy Primadonna Type, let me assure you, all I want is a job to pay bills in the short term.</p>

 

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>Customers who buy photos at Walmart know, or really should know, what they are getting. People who shop at Walmart know it's not Nordstrums. They can't afford that and know it, and there's nothing wrong with that. </p>

<p>If you want to work at a studio which does everything your way, then you can open one.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I think you and Matt missed my point. I don't care about the focus on retail experience over ability as a photographer. I took issue with them promoting their photographers as "experienced professionals". I just found the discrepancies between their hiring practices and the marketing amusing—"no experience required" vs "experienced". Come on, you know it's a little funny, even if it's unsurprising and fairly common. </p>

 

 

 

[David_Cavan]

<p>Andew - I'm glad to see that someone is still able to be surprised by advertising hype. It's refreshing, somehow. I guess they would argue that if you've worked there for a week you have experience! No qualification about how much, or how valuable, but experience nonetheless.</p>

[William Kahn]

<p>Actually, I'm surprised those guys are still in business at all, much less hiring. I've gone into our local Wally World at different times of the day, and the "portrait studio" has always been closed. Trend, or aberration?</p>

[will_daniel1]

Andrew, without having seen the marketing materials you refer to, I'm going out on a limb and guess that there's nothing misleading about them. It is likely those "experienced professionals" have invested untold resources in setting up the equipment so that the retail clerks (the job you applied for) can press the button with a reasonable assurance of getting consistent quality photographs. If my guess is correct, I don't see anything misleading about it. Maybe you should apply for a job as one of those behind-the-scenes guys instead of the retail clerk.

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>It's Walmart! It's misleading by de facto. The type of folks they hire as customer service "professionals" is nothing but as well as the way they treat their employees.</p>

<p>Geez! You'ld think no one here ever stepped foot in a Walmart.</p>

<p>My credo is no matter how bad it gets financially, life's too short to work for Walmart. I'ld rather be homeless. I don't even like shopping there. I get this sinking depressed feeling every time I step foot in the place and have to look at the vacant gazes from their "professional" customer service personnel.</p>

<p>Great post, Andrew.</p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>There's a portrait studio nearby that's been in business for over 30 years. The lighting and background is already setup with marks on the floor for variations in camera position and lighting. There's a section for furniture and props catering to various photo styles.</p>

<p>The setup was clearly designed by a professional. The actual "photographer" could be anyone because it's as simple as following a script and pushing the shutter button, no need for knowledge but perfect results every time. </p>

<p>I don't see anything wrong with the approach because customers still know exactly what they're getting from sample photos. The art and craft of it have been distilled down to simplicity and practicality without compromising the customer, and the photos don't look half bad either. </p>

[philipward]

High end or low end studios require sales and marketing experience even more than photo skills if you wish to survive in this game.Ask any successful photographer.

[photo5]

<p>Very true, I worked for a photographer for a couple years while I was earning my Commercial Photography degree. And he pretty much said being in business for yourself as a photographer is 90% sales and marketing, and running the business, and 10% actual photography. I saw how hard he worked to earn money from the jobs he got, seven days a week, and decided I didn't want to go that route. Plus after two years as a second shooter at a wedding, and seeing all what he had to do to ensure the photos he took looked good, I decided it was too much of a pain in the ass. </p>

<p>So yes, sales is very important, as is people skills. If you don't have those two skills, the photography skills you have are worthless unless you want to just shoot stock and hope it sells on the penny stock sites.</p>

[richardsperry]

<blockquote>

<p>I took issue with them promoting their photographers as "experienced professionals".</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I understood that point of your post. I did not miss your point. You missed mine.</p>

<p>Which is why I stated that customers of WalMart should know what to expect from $8.10 an hour employees taking care of them.</p>

<p>I worked at WalMart for 9 months. I made 8.10 an hour. I know the type of people they employ. I know who their customer base is. You are not losing out.</p>

<p>If the WalMart customers did not get their photos done at WalMart, they would not be able to get their photos done anywhere else. <strong> </strong></p>

<p><strong>You are not losing out on potential customers.</strong></p>

<p>They would just not have photos taken. You are not losing out on anything.</p>

<p>Poor people should be able to get family portraits taken, Andrew. For what they can afford.</p>

<p> </p>

[andrew_west5]

<p>Interesting responses. As far as Walmart goes, it (and a handful of other major chain stories) has effectively taken over the economy of this particular small town (population around 20,000). For better or worse, as the Walmart here has grown (literally, they finished the Super Walmart conversion a couple years ago), local business has declined. The mall a minute from the house is empty, the last store closed its doors around the time the national economy bottomed out. There is still local business, but in many cases, it's competing directly with Walmart. Make of it what you will, no real point here, but them's the facts.</p>

<p>I have a question for those quick to stand up for the chain studios (which, to be honest, I don't have any strong opinions toward either way). If I were to research the pricing and packages of all of these studios in my immediate area (say, <10 miles), then start offering my own portrait services at either the same or a slightly lower cost, would you stand up for me while I undercut all of the independent photographers/studios in the area?</p>

[richardsperry]

<blockquote>

<p>My credo is no matter how bad it gets financially, life's too short to work for Walmart.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I disagree, Tom.</p>

<p>That is just pathetic white lazy arrogance, seems to me.</p>

<p>"Can't work in the fields because I am white. Can't pick tomatoes, I am white. Can't prune grapevines, I am white. Can't clean a toilet, I am white. Can't mow lawns, I am white. Can't can tomatoes because I am white."</p>

<p>"Can't work at WalMart, because I am white. "</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'ld rather be homeless.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Right? Living under a blue tarp under an overpass?</p>

<p>Many years ago. I had to pay a couple of guys to come out and clean out a septic tank. I remember sitting on a chair in the backyard watching them on a Summer day. I was drinking a beer, sitting back, basking in my prosperity. And I remember remarking to my fiancee, that, "that is one job I would <em>never</em> do." Moving poop from one tank to another. I would never do that job, ever. No matter how low I go, I would never do that job.</p>

<p>Half a year after that, I was up at the California North Coast, getting my diving certificate. And there I saw a retired white white-haired gentleman at the camp site. In a $500,000 Beaver coach. And he was hooking up his black water tank, to the intake tank at the campground, to pump out his poop into another tank. He was moving his poop from one tank to another. And he was doing this for recreation. For FUN, for FREE.</p>

<p>It was at that time that I realized that no job is beneath another, and that I could do any job available. Regardless of my ancestry. I believe that realization has made me a better person.</p>

[richardsperry]

<blockquote>

<p>I have a question for those quick to stand up for the chain studios (which, to be honest, I don't have any strong opinions toward either way). If I were to research the pricing and packages of all of these studios in my immediate area (say, <10 miles), then start offering my own portrait services at either the same or a slightly lower cost, would you stand up for me while I undercut all of the independent photographers/studios in the area?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Why do you ask?</p>

<p>You live in the USA. You are free to charge what you want for the services you provide.</p>

<p>You don't need us to "stand up for you". You need to produce a product/service that people what, and compete like everyone else.</p>

<p>Regarding WalMart. As a previous Associate myself, I have never encountered so many functionally illiterate and virtually unemployable people in my life. I did not know that they existed in such numbers, honestly.</p>

<p>NO OTHER COMPANY OR UNION would hire the majority of WalMart employees...</p>

<p>Such that, the only conclusion is that WalMart is one of the GREATEST community service organizations that exists. WalMart hires people that no other business would hire. They would never make it into a union to work someplace else.</p>

<p>If you can name another organization which employs the unemployable to the extent that WalMart does, then I will concede here. Besides the California DMV, of course.</p>

[richardsperry]

<blockquote>

<p>what</p>

</blockquote>

<p>want, not what</p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>Andrew, I think this discussion ties in to the recent technology discussion threads we've had over the months. </p>

<p>There was a time when machines and technology was more expensive than human labour, so the economy hired labour to do the work. Then labour realized they can leverage this advantage to increase their wages, so they did.</p>

<p>Nowadays, costs of machines and technology undercuts labour by such a margin that labour can no longer compete, at least in North America.</p>

<p>In the case of Walmart, big box stores, and most large service sectors, significant portions of the business operation is automated to such an extent that intelligent human labour is only required at the marketing end to generate more business, and the supply end to beat down prices.</p>

<p>There's an optimistic side, though. Look in the right places and you'll see that quality paid photography is everywhere and in more quantity than we've ever seen before. It might be fragmented and specialized, and you'll have to dig deep to sniff out where the paid work is, but no doubt it's out there. It just takes more work these days to discover it. </p>

[David_Cavan]

<p>Andrew - to answer your question directly - yes, I would use your services if they were competitive. As I mentioned in my earlier post, and as others have discussed in this thread, cost is 90% of the equation for many people, as it was for me at that point in my life. The type of photography offered by "chain" studios is a commodity, quite frankly. It's not about "art", it's about documenting the life and times of a family, and it's another case of good enough is good enough. And I wouldn't give a moments thought about depriving local professionals of that photo session - I have always assumed they have their market and as long as they serve it well they will do just fine.</p>

<p>On the issue of shopping at Walmart - I do it all the time and haven't felt my soul shrivel as a result. I can afford to go to Nordstroms now, but why would I do that for t-shirts & blue jeans? Quite frankly I enjoy wandering the aisles of Walmart on a busy Saturday - it's where the people are.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Richord, you make a lot of assumptions about my character. All of which are wrong. Dead wrong!</p>

<p>Every one has their own life to live before they get put in that six foot hole that has nothing to do with racism. You're born alone, you die alone and you have no one to answer for but yourself.</p>

<p>I've had that long conversation with myself about that six foot hole and have developed the strength (not arrogance as you put it) to not compromise my life for what little is offered working at Walmart or any other place that treats people like they do.</p>

<p>There's more to life than money, Richord. Maybe you need to have that conversation with yourself as well. That big black void at the end of the line doesn't care if you worked at Walmart or Wall Street both of which don't seem to put a lot of value on human life or quality of life of others.</p>