Ian Rance Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>My only experience with rangefinder cameras has been with (Kodak Retina) models from the 1940's and 1950's. I have grown up with those and feel comfortable with them. From what I gather many manufacturers still continued making rangefinder cameras into the 1970's - or possibly even later. I have only ever seen older models for sale though and I purchaced and still enjoy using some of them. I really like the quiet shutter, compact design and flash sync at all shutter speeds.<br> My rangefinder cameras have a fairly decent viewfinder with a bright frame on the later models. They all fold up. Some have a selenium cell (uncoupled) and my newest one (from 1955) even gives the option of a 35 or 80mm lens. Possibly after this the SLR took over and sales (and improvements) declined but what were the main changes that came after the Retina IIIc (my most modern rangefinder camera)? I am interested to hear whether this style of camera got better, worse or just different. Kodak gave up with them by the end of the 50's I think.</p> <p>My own experiences shows a timeline as follows.</p> <p>1937 - knob wind and manual shutter cocking. Rangefinder seperate to viewfinder.<br> 1946 - rangefinder integrated to viewfinder and lens coated.<br> 1952 - one stroke winding and shutter cocking.<br> 1955 - alternative focal lengths available and in camera metering</p> <p>So in 20 years some big changes. From 1957 to now is 50 years so what of any interest in the rangefinder world happened in that time?</p> <p>Thanks for any help - Ian</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_van_Nooij Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Not sure if they're all 'improvements':</p> <p>More interchangable lens systems like M-mount,<br />Aperture-priority automatic exposure<br /> TTL-metering,<br /> Digital Rangefinders (Epson R-D1, Leica M8, M9)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridinhome Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>At the risk of revisiting the old debate about whether they are true rangefinders or not - AF on rangefinders (Hexar AF and Contax G-series).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_gordon_bilson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Well - speaking from a New Zealand perspective ,the Retina was the camera Sir Edmund Hillary took with him on the ascent of Everest -most likely the '46 model ?<br> Given the vista - the rangefinder feature was probably not a deal-breaker.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waltflanagan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <blockquote> <p>I have only ever seen older models for sale though</p> </blockquote> <p>Surely there have to be some Leicas in the old/classic stores you go to. Leica switched from the screw mount to the bayonet M mount. The viewfinder and rangefinder windows became one. TTL metering, more lenses including things like the Tri-Elmar (sort of a rangefinder zoom) In the last 10 years Cosina bought the Voigtlander name and has a series of bodies and lenses that are pretty good and compatible with Leica gear. I think their viewfinders are even better than Leica.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_gordon_bilson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>And i think it's probably fair to say that the Retina series got better and better (F1.9 Schneider Xenon?) until they ,sadly,faded away..<br> Closest "modern" equivalent ,arguably,might be the Yashica GSN, with an amazingly good F1.7/45 lens,parallax corrected viewfinder,and a strangely accurate ,coupled CDS meter.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Rance Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Rick - TTL metering on a rangefinder? I thought that it would be impossible to do but where there is a will there is a way. I will look into that technology.<br />I am not sure that digital or AF count as they would not have a viewfinder 'diamond patch' rangefinder would they?<br />Ian, well I too use a zone focus Retina and it is great for landscape work but the rangefinder is useful at wider apertures and close up. I have never heard of (or seen) the Yashica GSN but next time I am in town I will ask about it.<br />Walt, I have seen Leicas for sale (I nearly bought one) but the uncoated lenses along with the system where you had to slide the back off and use odd special film cassettes put me off. I have not seen anything newer in the Leica system offered for sale. I do recall seeing a Voigtlander for sale once a few years ago but I don't think it had a meter or even a viewfinder come to think of it. It maybe just my area but the cameras offered are either 1930-1960 or SLR's. Perhaps 1960-1980 was a poor time for camera sales in the UK.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou_Meluso Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <blockquote> <p>Kodak gave up with them by the end of the 50's I think.</p> </blockquote> <p>Kodak's last interchangeable lens rangefinder was the Signet 80 which ended production in 1962.<br> <a href="00YOZc">http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00YOZc</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_jeanette1 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Yashica Electro series, Canon Canonet, Olympus 35, Etc, etc. Did I miss something? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_rochkind Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 SLRs took over the advanced amateur/pro, interchangable lens segment, while rangefinders with auto-exposure and fixed, fast lenses were hugely popular in the midrange, until about 1980, when the rangefinder began to be replaced by auto-focus. (See Ken's post just above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winfried_buechsenschuetz1 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>"Rick - TTL metering on a rangefinder? I thought that it would be impossible to do but where there is a will there is a way. I will look into that technology."<br> The Leica CL was the first rangefinder with TTL metering, it had a swiveling arm behind the lens carrying the light meter cell. There were also "genuine" Leicas with TTL metering (I think the M5 had this feature - maybe around the same time as the Leica CL), and some of the newer Bessa rangefinders have TTL metering, too.<br> TTL metering is NOT impossible with rangefinders, but it is more difficult than with SLRs.<br> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machts gut Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Mamiya 6 and 7 - MF folders with interchangeable lenses. Bessa III - folder with the ability to switch between 6x6 and 6x7, now even in a wide angle version. Fuji rangefinders from 4.5x6 to 6x9 - some even with AF and Zoom lens. Not many modells, but they still developed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew_rusbarsky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>"So in 20 years some big changes. From 1957 to now is 50 years so what of any interest in the rangefinder world happened in that time?"<br> The Nikon F happened. It was one of those watershed events in camera design that changed the game and the market. Innovative 35mm RFs from the last half of the century? How about the Olympus XA?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Rance Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>I feel that perhaps the UK must be a quite market different to the US. We did not get the Signet 80 and the Yashica Electro, Canon Canonet and Olympus 35 are never seen. Perhaps they were not sold in the UK either. A shame really as it looks like a lot of interesting cameras that never made it over here. Asking around just a moment ago many people went from a 1940's-1950's 127 basic folder to a Praktika or Zenit SLR in the 1970's and then on to a modern AF camera. Most never got to own a rangefinder of any type. Probably that is why they are so rare now. I think the effects of WW2 are even now being felt as shortages and export drives along with the 'make do and mend' ethic prevents people ever even aspiring to own something as luxurious as a rangefinder camera.</p> <p>So from what I can gather the Retina range was the only model that was (fairly easily) available to those with the means and that is why they are still the current rangerinder of choice.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_van_Nooij Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Ian, the 3 digital cameras I mentioned still have manual mechanical rangefinders. Not auto-focus ;)</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Rance Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Well in that case they count just fine Rick. Sad to say though that I don't think I will ever get to see them in the flesh as the one camera store in reach that is a Leica dealer has the Leica section behind a curtain with a counter manned by someone who looks a bit like Leo Sayer. As a boy I tried to peep through the curtain as I was intrigued what lied beyond and I was spotted and told to leave in no uncertain terms. I still have a fear of that shop today - he may recognise me still....</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_stobbs3 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Minolta Hi-Matic, Konica Auto S2, S3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_thearle Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>We certainly did get the Yashica Electro 35 here in the UK. I inherited one from a relative. It's a damn good camera too, especially for low light photography.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_5050610 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Ian--I'd really, REALLY check out a website like Rangefinder Forum. You might be amazed at what you see.<br> I have an M6TTL--all the M6s were TTL anyway.. Leica even has a digital RF, of all things!<br> Seriously, the RF is alive and well to this day.<br> Paul</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCL Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>I see a lot of UK folks using RF cameras (old and new) on several forums. In addition to the RFF mentioned above, you should give a serious look at the Leica forum (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/), which is very active.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug grosjean Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Isn't the Olympus XA a rangefinder camera? </p> <p>I'd say that they Oly XA came along in the 1970s, and became something of a prototype for all the current compact point-n-shoot digitals we see now.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebu_lamar Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>Yes TTL metering with a rangefinder isn't difficult as long as it has the focal plane shutter like the Leica. At first it seemed tough and Leica with the M5 had to have an arm with a sensor mounted at its end and swing in front of the shutter to measure light and swing out before exposure. But the current M6, M7 use a much simpler way that we can't help hitting our head as to why we didn't think about it. The first shutter curtain has a white circle with 12mm diameter. The sensor is at the bottom of the camera looking at the light reflected from the circle at about 45 degree angle. The Nikonos V while isn't a rangefinder use the similar technique of having the first shutter curtain blade in gray and a sensor reads light bouncing off it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waltflanagan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <blockquote> <p>I have seen Leicas for sale (I nearly bought one) but the uncoated lenses along with the system where you had to slide the back off and use odd special film cassettes put me off. I have not seen anything newer in the Leica system offered for sale.</p> </blockquote> <p>Ian, sometimes I wonder about the stores you go to... Older Leicas required you to trim the film leader and load from the bottom. I think in the 1960's they added the back door to help loading the film. Look at something modern like an M6 or M7 not the ancient screwmount cameras.</p> <blockquote> <p>I do recall seeing a Voigtlander for sale once a few years ago but I don't think it had a meter or even a viewfinder come to think of it. It maybe just my area but the cameras offered are either 1930-1960 or SLR's. Perhaps 1960-1980 was a poor</p> </blockquote> <p>Voigtlander was an old Austrian company that went out of business sometime in the 60's. Cosina bought the name and sells modern rangefinders with TTL metering, "normal" film loading from the back, integrated rangefinder/viewfinder. Take a look at this page. If you read the Bessa R info page you can see the metering cell at the bottom that takes a reading off the reflection of the shutter curtain.</p> <p>http://cameraquest.com/</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machts gut Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 <p>"Voigtlander was an old Austrian company that went out of business sometime in the 60's."</p> <p>Voigtländer was indeed founded in Vienna in 1756, but the firm moved to Braunschweig in Germany only few years later. What we later knew as Voigtländer cameras and lenses came from Germany. Here's a link to the history of Voigtländer:<br> http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_historie_e.html<br> The history of Voigtländer as a manufacturer of own products ended in 1972. From then on they marketed Zeiss cameras from Singapore and later on the name was sold to Cosina, as you described.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Cloven Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 <p>Mamiya 7 II is a rangefinder. Show me another rangefinder that can take this shot! :-)</p> <p><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/13287693-md.jpg" alt="" width="680" height="527" /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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