more trouble, photo at school leads to disciplinary meeting

[george_ghio]

<p>Hi Jeremy<br>

I read the letter you were sent. I saw no mention that the problem was taking photos. When you took the photos did the girls verbally abuse you? If so then according to the letter the girls are clearly in breach of section 2010.A.1.a.</p>

<p>Did you verbally abuse the girls or subject them to any of the abuses listed in 2010.A.1.a? If not and there is no mention of a rule against taking photos in 2010.A.1.a then there is no case to answer.</p>

<p>Does Stony Brook offer photography as a subject? If so it could be questioned whether or not every photograph of a person has the correct release attached.</p>

<p>This is not meant to be legal advice, just my take on what has happened. Still I consider them to be valid points given the wording of 2010.A.1.a. Personally I would write the whole episode up, detailing exactly what occurred and submit it to the panel. But then I can't stand petty little tin gods.</p>

<p> </p>

[leslie_cheung]

from your opening post, you did act like a creep. And i say this as an avid street photog. Whether you are right or not (both legally & morally), do us streetshooters a favor, take a course in people skill next semester...maybe pys 101 or marketing 101. Or just watch house and learn to lie better. It's all about how you say as much as what you or don't say...

[john_bellenis]

<p>There are clearly gray areas here - but perception is reality and you need to step back from your indignation and reassess your position. Maybe what you were doing did not break the letter of the law, but it sure looked (and apparently felt) suspicious and made people feel uncomfortable. It would serve you well to dismount your high horse and try and see the event from other's point of view. Running away after sneakily taking pictures is not exactly going to make you look friendly, professional and normal!</p>

<p>Maybe things have gone too far, but digging your heels in and claiming gender discrimination is not going to help your case. The fact is that women do get preyed upon by men, that some guys are shifty, perverted and plain weird. If you act in ways that may encourage people to assume you fit into that category, you have to accept that there may be unforeseen and unfortunate consequences.</p>

<p>I think you need to realize that being aggressive, trying to defensively justify your - undoubtedly bizarre - actions and claiming "rights" and some kind of artistic discrimination will not help your case. It's time to be contrite, apologetic and realize that your actions could easily have been misconstrued. Show a portfolio of images to support your claim that photography was your only goal, that nothing suspicious was going on, and then reassure everyone that you will be careful to avoid such situations in the future. </p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>Hello George they did not curse at me, the only thing I can think of is that they actually disturbed my activity of taking photographs. They were simply walking, and I took a photo, and now somehow I am the one distrubing their walking? Yet its fine if they bother me at my dorm room and force me to delete my art. I am taking a photo class next semester.<br>

Leslie, sorry that you have adopted the generalization of photographers so easily.</p>

<p>John, I could show people my portfolio to allow people to see that I like to shoot photos of people, whether it be at concerts, events or just on the street. But apparently, it is much more convenient just to assume attributes on me, like Leslie has done. The reason I am defending myself is because people are creating a counter argument based on assumptions. I will not settle for being labeled a creep and moving on sorry to say. If it has a problem with having too much self respect, so be it. But I have contemplated about the meeting and have taken what others have said. Although I would like to defend myself and simply point out my good intentions, I can see that the RHA could simply take advantage of the situation, as she already has, and remove me from the school. I will just be obedient for my educations sake. </p>

 

[john_bellenis]

<p>Jeremy, you seem outraged that people have made "assumptions" but unable to accept that your own actions led them to those beliefs. It's quite normal for people to make assumptions based on events (and the interpretation of those events given to them by others). If they are mistaken it is beholden to you to politely, calmly and reasonably put the record straight (supporting evidence helps, so bring some images) and to apologize for upsetting people in the first place.</p>

<p>Your last sentence makes a lot of sense - it's not worth risking your education and future over such a silly issue. This is not a matter of "self respect" - self respect would lead you to make decisions that are in your best interest moving forward. Don't confuse stubbornness and misplaced outrage with self respect. </p>

<p>I wish you the best, but would seriously advise you to be a little more self critical when looking at what has transpired.</p>

[woolly1]

<p>Another day, another lesson learnt. Life just isn't fair.<br /> <br /> It might just be me 'assuming attributes' but when I read the responder's posts I hear calm hard won wisdom and advice but when I read Jeremy's I hear refusal to accept the reality of my actions and their consequences. <br /> <br /> Jeremy, if I were you I'd print out this thread and read it again in a couple of years to see how big this hill of beans really is in the real world of making a living and paying the bills. It seems that what could have been a few seconds of explanation and inclusion with those girls you have turned into a mess of a disciplinary procedure. Don't you think the Hall Director would have preferred to just have a word in your ear instead of hauling it off to the principal with all the paperwork involved? Your card is marked whatever the outcome is. On the other hand things get easier when you're past the 'not living at home and I have my rights' stage and lose the attitude.</p>

<p>Feel free to get into more scrapes and come back to us for another spanking. When you get pulled over by a cop for speeding do let us know how it goes for you - I've really enjoyed this thread and am hungry for another episode. Have you thought of a blog?</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Next time, get out of telephoto range, and get your @#$%^ down there and photograph them from six feet away. The pictures will be better, and the proximity will support better social interaction. Recording doesn't require surveillance or concealment.</p>

<p>If you cannot step over and reach out to shake the hand of your subject while introducing yourself, then you were too far away.</p>

<p>When I was a young college student one of the first points one of my journalism professors brought up about recording in public was that some people might be worried about getting caught while having an affair. It's tangential, but it's an example of a situation where people act normally in public, even though they may be up to something in private. Add to this the fear of the digital age, some creepy guy with a camera, and someone's going to take some flak from complaining.</p>

<p>Locally, right now, we've got a young man sitting in the county jail on 14 felony charges of illegal surveillance on a college campus. His circumstances are different from yours; they involve burglary allegations and who knows what all else; in the eyes of the public, voyeuristic recordings are still socially dangerous, even though we're not living in the 19th Century anymore. That's far different that photographing someone outside; but, it's the kind of thing that people fear.</p>

<p>Welcome to the real world of adulthood and photography. Even when you're right, you can still be sued. Being hypothetically right or strong or correct does not mean that you'll get your way in this world. Sometimes being diplomatic and direct goes better. It works with terrorists. It works with nude models. It works most of the time. It doesn't work always, but it works most of the time.</p>

<p>A smile and a handshake will get you a helluva lot farther in photography than being hypothetically right.</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>You need to go to the library (or a bookstore,) and get a copy of "How to win friends and influence people." Once you read through it, you should be able to walk up to just about anyone and ask "Do you mind if I take a few images of you for practice with my camera?" If you make and keep eye-contact, you may get the "OK' to shoot, or not. It is a type of salesmanship that you need to master in life....and keep a open-ear to listen to what the other person is saying.</p>

<p> </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Jeremy -</p>

<p>Again - I'm confused - where you and the ladies indoors when you took the photos? or were you outside? Based on your post - "went to a common room...shot some photos of parking lot... heard people coming...made way to your room"</p>

<p>If you were outdoors - different (completely) expectation of privacy - although that is not what the RHA is bringing up on...</p>

<p>I believe - and your responses seem to be confirming it - that you are being brought to task on "I expressed my hostility towards how she is treating me" - and not on the potential harassment or abuse of students.</p>

<p>If I'm wrong - then I'm wrong - but I learned very early - that it does absolutely no good to yell and scream at a person in an authoritative position - especially one that could get you kicked out of school.</p>

<p>As a side note - When I took a college photo class - we were given an assignment - simple one really - go photograph a person. Turn in 1 8x10 b/w print of that photo. Rules of engagement were: 1) they can not be a model 2) we had to engage them - before or after the shot - since we had to put a name with the person 3) we had to tell them what we were doing 4) no nudity or implied nudity. 5) no photos of people in our class (so we couldn't just pair up and do each other's photos) -</p>

<p>The assignment - while simple was done to get us out from behind the viewfinder and talking to our subjects - find out about them and what they are doing - and yes - even if they mind having their photo taken. My subject was a man at a street fair - sitting on a folding chair - on grass - right behind a "keep off the grass sign". He didn't realize that I had taken his photo until I talked to him. Then he was really cool with it - as long as I wasn't the one who had put up the keep off the grass sign.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[andylynn]

<p>I'm a bit unclear on the facts now, e.g. the indoor/outdoor thing, but realistically I don't think that matters much because you're dealing with the university here, no a court. The university is going to have more leeway in what they do or do not allow, and what this will come down to is whether the disciplinary committee thinks you're an okay guy in a misunderstanding or a potential sex offender. The best thing you can do for yourself is to appear as reasonable as possible.</p>

<p>Your university might have ways to head off the disciplinary process. For example, can you ask for mediation before the hearing? If you have the opportunity to speak with the aggrieved students and RA, now that some time has passed and everybody's a bit less on edge, and talk them around to the point of view that this is all a misunderstanding and you're quite harmless, that's going to be your easiest way out of this. But that's only possible if you really are calm and reasonable and consider both sides of the story, and open up to the possibility that they may have a point too.</p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>hello this is the author, i am in class now but i keep getting notifivations that you are replying to this thread. i just wanted to let you know that i have not abandoned this thread i have just been busy, so i will answer some of your questions soon</p>

[KenPapai]

<p>...I guess I still don't get the part where a dude is running from two girls? Were they much larger than you?</p>

<p>If not for that (why?) fact this never would've escalated to the discipline committee.</p>

[mark_drutz]

<p>It looks to me like you are being charged under rule 2010.A.1a with "verbally abuse.... of any other person". I assume that person is your RA. I would find out exactly what you are being charged with and by whom.</p>

<p>BTW, my wife and daughter went to Stony Brook. My daughter is now a lawyer. You may want to talk to one. This could be a serious matter that could follow after graduation.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><em>"Yet its fine if they bother me at my dorm room and force me to delete my art."</em></p>

<p>"Art" is many things. But it is most debased and misunderstood when it is used as an excuse. While you're taking that Psych class and the Marketing class, you might consider an Art class as well.</p>

[Sanford]

<p>You need to reevaluate your camera equipment. You will need either a camera big and heavy enough to use as a self defense weapon (Nikon is good for this); a camera cheap enough so when someone takes it from you and smashes it you don't suffer undo economic loss; or a camera small enough that when someone tries to insert it into one of your bodily orifices it doesn't cause you undo pain. This is here you are headed with your attitude.</p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>The reason for the hearing is not because of the student or the RA, it is because of me standing up to the employee. The form is done on behalf of the person I wrote the email to. Like I and some of you have said, I could have just deleted the photos and said nothing but some things are worth something to me and worth fighting for. If I knew I was doing something wrong or illegal I wouldn't do it, it is common sense. The person who received the email got angry, and arranged for this meeting. They will probably be the most powerful person there, or perhaps even the only person there, so I can only sit there and take what she has to say since my email didn't go through.</p>

<p>Also I was not using a telephoto lens I believe. It was a 50mm 1.4 canon and I was testing the speed since it was at night. The zoom is not that large, but on my canon rebel t2i the image scales by 1.6 due to the sensor.</p>

<p>The situation was me inside a building in the common room, and me pointing my camera outside(like i said before :P).</p>

<p> </p>

[woolly1]

<p>You could always trump them (aka raise the stakes) by inviting his/her superior to the meeting.</p>

[denniswms]

<p>

 

<p>Five pages of responses now and I cannot make any other conclusion than the OP is on the wrong side of a lost battle. To put it mildly. </p>

<p>I am just positive that parents will be thrilled to think their kids are being stalked and photographed at night by someone who runs back to his dorm after taking the digital images. That the OP is oblivious to his inexcusable position as some martyr for photography is both scary and sad. There is simply zero justification to be out at night on campus taking surprise images of unknown fellow students.</p>

 

</p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>thats a great opinion you have there dennis, living in paranoia</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><em>"I just want to know what you guys think about this."</em> --Jeremy</p>

<p>This is clearly not the case. Jeremy just wants to argue and bolster his faulty reasoning and bad logic. The defensiveness here is palpable. You are using a camera to hide behind, not to create. This has nothing to do with photography, art, or paranoia. It has to do with your own bad behavior and misjudgments. When everyone else in the room is crazy and you're the only sane one, it's time to rethink your position. But you won't. You're headed for trouble and you're not going to know what hit you.</p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>again we all have our opinions, just know that opinion and fact are two different things, fred</p>

[Sanford]

<p>Jeremy - let us see some of your work...</p>

[jeremy_dennis]

<p>i put a link to my flickr in the first post, i think you can click my name or photostream to see my photos</p>

[mark_schott]

<p>As is often the case with these sorts of threads, be careful about what you post. Assuming your photo.net username is the same as your real name, this thread can be easily found with just a quick search. It could be a hindrance.</p>

<p>Best of luck</p>

[goldbergbarry]

<p>To everyone except the OP: some people cannot be helped. Life is too short to deal with people like this. Obviously you all are wrong and Jeremy is correct. Yeah, I know it's a shame because we've all been there and we're trying to share what we learned with him. To him, it's about right versus wrong. To everyone else, it is about being pragmatic.</p>