curt_kalkstein1 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>A person is interested in learning photography from me - not photography lessons, but serving an apprenticeship.<br> I've looked a couple of other exchanges done here on such agreements, specifically the area of non-compete. But, those threads seem to be from the point of view of the apprentice. I'd like to get both - or all - sides of this, but it's a bit odd that none of the material I saw supported the photographer trying to protect him/herself.<br> So, here is what I've drafted; will you please share some thoughts?<br> John/Jane Doe, apprentice, agrees to serve for six months as an unpaid apprentice for the purpose of learning the business of photography from Acme Photography. This opportunity will include, but will not be limited to lighting, posing, customer relations and marketing.<br> In exchange for this opportunity, apprentice and spouse, agree to suspend operations of the part-time photography business they maintain for the six months of the apprenticeship and for the six months thereafter. To wit, they may neither seek nor accept photography assignments in Your County or any county contiguous to it.<br> Apprentice's spouse is also a party to this agreement in that said spouse assists in the performance of the apprentice's photography business whereby apprentice and apprentice's spouse financially benefit therefrom.<br> Notwithstanding the above, and without waiver to any rights otherwise inuring to the above photographer, Acme Photography, in the event apprentice or apprentice's spouse breach any term herein, regardless of how minute said breach might be, the apprentice and/or apprentice's spouse agree to promptly forfeit any gross fees collected or billed by them, or by others on their behalf, unto photographer, together with a fee for the apprenticeship in the amount of $1,000.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tonai Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>Before you go too far with this idea, you should check with an attorney to see if this unpaid apprenticeship runs afoul of labor laws.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan_franke Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>I don't like non-competes, having been on the "you can't use any of your work experience for x years" side of one. I'd stipulate a no-poaching of contacts/customers clause (apprentice shall not do work for hire for any clients that he met during the apprenticeship, or any professional contacts that he met through the master, or something like that) but beyond that you're getting into "tortious employment interference" territory. Judges don't like people who want to shut down others' ability to earn a living, or so I'm told. Employees don't like that either, and you'll get a reputation for being a bad employer, a bad instructor, or worse.<br> I know you want to protect your clientele from being poached by the apprentice, but you also don't want word getting back to your clients about "unfair" treatment of your employees. That'll lose you clients too.<br> It's a fine line, and if you're that worried about him taking your knowledge and taking all your business, think about hiring him after the apprenticeship. If he's good enough to worry you, then put him on your side and let him bring you business. If he's not that good, then don't worry about it. People will go where the quality is.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles_Webster Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>In California, unpaid apprentice/intern positions are illegal unless in conjunction with a recognized school program. Most other states are probably similar.<br> <Chas></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>Non-competes have to be fairly specific and "reasonable." You shouldn't be looking here for advice on this, you will probably end up with something you can't enforce. A lawyer should draw up an agreement like this. Also, the pay issue is something a lawyer should look at, it is highly possible you are violating the law, as Charles points out. </p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>This language is woefully inadequate if not dangerous. Third party spouses are part of a contract they are not part of? That's nonsense. Sometimes using a lawyer can be overkill for a one off agreement but this is not one of those occasions. There are so many issues here, many unaddressed, that listing them all is too onerous to take on. Don't cut corners and do this right before you get in to trouble.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswms Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 <p>The likelihood of this ending well is slim. Obviously you missed the point of the story from Bronson's 1972 version of The Mechanic. You had me laughing at the no competition clause.</p> <p>Buy a chimp and train it, you'll be better off.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 <p>Maybe I'm missing the point, but if I were worried about someone stealing from me, I don't think I'd take the trouble to train them in the first place. It's like walking into a bar and explaining to some unscrupulous lounge lizard what it takes to please your wife.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 <blockquote> <p>Notwithstanding the above, and without waiver to any rights otherwise inuring to the above photographer, Acme Photography, in the event apprentice or apprentice's spouse breach any term herein, regardless of how minute said breach might be, the apprentice and/or apprentice's spouse agree to promptly forfeit any gross fees collected or billed</p> </blockquote> <p><strong><em>Any</em></strong> term? No matter how minuscule in scope? Forfeiting entire<em><strong> </strong></em>net fees AND a penalty in the amount matching the remaining gross expenditures the volunteer already paid for and another flat fee penalty in general all for some scant breach of any kind? For unpaid employees? Where did you find this stuff?</p> <p>Aside from the language overall is the notion of getting all sorts of free labor. Maybe that should be seen in light of the phrase... "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_bellenis Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 <p>Who on earth would sign such an agreement? Who would work for someone who wanted them to sign such an agreement?</p> <p>The unpaid intern and his wife would suspend their business for a year? If they accept a job 5 months after the internship is over, they are expected to hand over the GROSS fees plus an extra grand to the photographer?</p> <p>What am I missing here?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 <p>The cut and pastes of all the fancy sounding provisions featuring to wits, inuring and therefroms all have nothing to do with photography and photography business per se. The questions, at this point, should be about goals and concerns of having some help in exchange for imparting expertise (contract drafting excepted) overall.</p> <p>Ideas?</p> <p>Are you there Curt?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lornesunley Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 <p>Chiming in late, all your draft means to me is that you do not want an apprentice. No one in their right mind would sign that, and depending on the jurisdiction area of the contract, some of the clauses would not be binding.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank uhlig Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 <p>I though the minimum wage or rate of pay in the US was around 8-9 $ an hour now. In which country do you live? With free labor being legal and NO benefits at all? Wisconsin?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 <blockquote> <p>In which country to you live? Wisconsin?</p> </blockquote> <p>Good one!</p> <p>Hopefully, the would-be apprentice will take some photography courses rather than getting rooked into a raw deal.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred_mueggelhopper Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 <p>Curt it sounds as if you are afraid that your apprentice could turn into a better photog than yourself. You could have learned a lot from Monte Zucker.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianivey Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 <p>I love this place, but good heavens, sometimes I think people don't consider how posting ideas to a forum transforms the moderate tone of voice they hear in their own heads into one of crazed, frothing-at-the-mouth, arms-waving indignation. (Yeah, I realize there are a few people don't hear moderate voices in their heads.)</p> <p>Curt, you sorta got what you asked for, though perhaps it was a bit rougher than you wanted. If you're serious about having a non-compete, you do want it drafted by a lawyer in your jurisdiction who understands how to make it enforceable. You can't bind someone (e.g., the apprentice's wife) to a contract to which she is not a party. You need a severability clause. You need to make consequences proportional to the offense. You need to know whether a non-compete duration after the contract is enforceable in your jurisdiction. You'll probably want to include a clause barring client poaching. You need to know whether unpaid apprenticeships are legal where you are, or whether it might be legal under a different structure. </p> <p>So, yes, this is one of those situations where you either involve a lawyer or just forget about the formal agreement, shake hands, let him tag along, and hope he's honorable. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt_kalkstein1 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 <p>Thank you very much for your passionate responses. This is one of the reasons I think this web site is so valuable - there are no sides, just honest opinions.<br> There will be no apprenticeship.<br> But, because so many of the responses seemed to be very personal, I do want to be clear that there is a difference between exploring something by airing it out with help from informed sources, such as those here, and actually going ahead with a project, or even formally presenting it.<br> Again, though, thank you very much.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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