Film jamming when loading onto spool

[jaydesi]

<p>I'm having a problem. I can wind the entire film onto the plastic spool with my eyes closed just fine. I can get a fresh roll started on the spool in the dark bag just fine. But at some point in the winding process in the bag, the film binds up on the spool and pops out of the track. I've now ruined two rolls of film because of this problem...I unwind it and retry, now with a few feet of film floating around inside the bag, in weird loops. I'm sure it's also bad for the film for me to be handling it in this state, which I wouldn't do if it would just wind properly. The only thing that comes to mind is that I've read here that it can be tough to load film into the spool if it's wet, and within seconds of my hands being in that bag, I get extremely sweaty, and the moisture is causing the film to bind. Other than that, I can't figure out why things would be any different in the bag than out of it.</p>

<p>I'm pretty frustrated right now, and trying to figure out why this is better than paying $5 to have the lab process my film. It sounded like a neat, fun thing to do, but I'm still waiting to get to the fun part.</p>

<p>On a semi-related note, how long will diluted developer last in an airtight bottle, since I mixed up my solution yesterday expecting to use it shortly thereafter, and now I won't even be using it today, after a second ruined roll of film.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for all the help!</p>

[geoff_r1]

<p>It could be that you haven't cut the film toe off straight. Whenever a film jams, I re cut the end and this usually fixes it. The film edge can 'dog ear' when it jams too, if this happens you'll never get the film wound without re cutting it.<br>

You could also try different spools, there may be something wrong with the one you're using, or you could try a different brand.</p>

[jean_yves_mead]

Are the plastic reels clean? Crud can build up on them over time, making them sticky and hard to load - this is what finally drove me to round-file my Paterson kit.

 

Also have you considered steel tanks and reels? Hewes reels in particular are a joy to use, and one can easily learn how to load them within the first roll.

 

Finally, of what material is your changing bag made?

[yann1]

<p>I never use a bag, I go into my darkroom to do it. When it's hot it will make you sweat. But you need a total lightproof place.<br>

I have the same problem sometimes when the film curls too much. Just cut the end of the film straight, as mentioned above and <strong>wind</strong> it <strong>very slowly</strong>. Make sure the film remains straight before it gets on the reel. You didn't say what kind of developper you use for your second question.</p>

[geoff_r1]

<p>Are you cutting in between the sproket holes? The film is much more likely to get jammed if you're cutting through the holes as you'll have edges. I usually try and cut with a slight curve to the film, rather than dead straight, but it needs to be smooth and fairly even.<br>

Loading spools is very frustrating to begin with, but it does get easier. You'll develop your own technique with some practice.</p>

[randy_johnson5]

<p>In my experience, plastic reels need to be completely dry or they can jam. When cutting off the film leader in the dark, which is a bit of a trick, do try and cut it as square as possible. Also, check to see if you have cut into the sprocket holes. If so, that little extra edge of film by the sprocket hole can get caught. Feel the corners of the film where you cut. You can probably tell if you have a hanging edge of film left. If so, just cut off a small corner on each side of the film edge. (Remember that you are working at the end of the film where there are no images) This little triangle of film cut off helps the leading edge of the film slide easier into the film reel. The goal is to get smooth film edges at the corners. If you are into a sprocket hole, just cut the film end again and see if you cut in between the sprocket holes. Practice! In the dark, you can have a pretty good idea of how to cut square by positioning your thumb and first finger squarely opposite one another in the dark, with the film in between.<br>

If your hands get quickly sweaty when loading the film in the changing bag, which can happen especially in the warm weather, your finger prints can end up on the processed film. Here is my solution.<br>

If you have a bathroom (or other room) with no windows and only one door try this. Buy a roll of darkroom cloth (Internet search). It's rubberized cloth about 36" wide. Then buy a 6 foot piece of wood 1" x 1/4" moulding (simple square edges). Cut the moulding to the width of the darkroom cloth. Glue the cloth between the two pieces of the moulding. Clamp overnight works best. Then screw in two little circular eyelets into the wood on the top edge. Then, get two fairly large picture hangers. They have a hole for a nail and a sharp V shaped end designed to hold the picture wire. Make sure that the V shaped end extends beyond the wood door frame. Carefully put a small nail through the hole through the hanger and into the very top of the wood moulding on the outside edge of the door frame. This is on the outside of the door if the door swings inward, into the room. You want the darkroom cloth to hang over the doorway on the outside of the door opposite where it swings. Cut the length of the darkroom cloth about 6-10 inches longer than the doorway. That way it drapes on the outside of the door and provides good light protection at the bottom of the door. Once you construct this you can make virtually any room light tight quickly for film loading and your hands won't become wet inside a little bag. The film can hang down from your hands in the room, so no crinkles. You can leave the little nail through the picture hanger in place and just swing the picture hanger to each side and they just sit on top of the door frame and you can't really see them and you haven't damaged the door frame either. For me, this was a fairly simple, one time, construction that's pretty inexpensive and it works great. Good luck.<br>

(You can also go to stainless steel reels and tanks but be sure to practice with old film to get the bend right when loading the film onto the steel reels.)</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>Get a big old rubberized cotton Burke and James "REXO" changing bag, not the nasty little nylon Chinese ones.<br>

Also, stainless steel reels don't mind a little humidity, and they are fast. Either a new Hewes reel, or a real classic (not bent) Nikor Products one.</p>

 

[jaydesi]

<p>Geoff, That could definitely have been the problem with the first one, it was definitely crooked. But on the second roll, when I took everything out of the bag and wound it that way, it went on just fine, right to the spool. The cut was almost perfectly straight.</p>

<p>Jean-Yves, the reels appear to be clean. I'm not sure what crud would look like, but they don't seem to have any sort of buildup. I do have a set of steel tanks and reels, but I'm not sure how to wind onto them, and all the online instructions seemed to show the plastic tank I have...so I went with what seemed to be close to the instructions. Regarding changing bag material, I honestly have no idea...the inner bag seems to be made of vinyl or something similar, and there's a canvas-like outer bag around that.</p>

<p>Yann, I don't have a darkroom, but I'm wishing I did. I don't really have the space to set one up at this point, and since I'm not planning to print, this is the only stage where I need darkness. I'm using Kodak Tmax developer.</p>

[jaydesi]

<p>Ok, sweat in the bag seemed to be the issue. I went into a dark closet and did everything there, and had no trouble. I guess I need a walk-in freezer to use this bag. Frustrating that I spent $25 on it and can't use it.</p>

<p>I got my film developed, but ran into another issue...instead of being clear, the light areas (including the edges) are brownish. I followed the film's instructions to develop at 20 C for 4 min, rather than the instructions I was following that said 12 min. Did I have some light leakage somewhere? Maybe my "lightproof" developing tank isn't as lightproof as it seems? Or should I have run the developer longer, despite the instructions in the box? I was shooting on Efke 25 ISO.</p>

[anirbanbanerjee]

<p>I have faced this problem many times, I always rolled the film back into the canister and started again.<br>

For me, this was always caused by reels that were not absolutely dry. It is best to dry the reels, the tank and the inside of the changing bag with a hair dryer before loading.</p>

[anirbanbanerjee]

<p>The brown edges are caused by insufficient fixing. You can always triple the fixing time to be on the safe side if your fixer solution is getting old or too diluted.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Alas, similar, even identical, problems can also happen with Nikor metal reels too. There, the additional problem is that it can be very hard to get a whole roll of 36-exposure film on the reel properly, especially if you're a cheapskate and try to get a couple of more exposures on the roll. That's no help to you, except to know that your misery is shared.</p>

<p>I've actually found it easier to shoot with 24-exposure film and loading for development just is easier. I wonder if that might not also be true for the plastic reels?</p>

<p>I'm thinking about buying a 30.5m length of ORWO film from the former DDR (it's still made!) so would be able to spool my own shorter loads--I'm hoping that will help me.</p>

<p>The problem with the ORWO is not the price of the film, but the cost of shipping it from Wolfen, Germany.</p>

 

[Gary Naka]

<p>If the changing bag is small, or if you collapse the bag flat before using, there is not enough air in the bag to absorb the sweat from your hands. Try to rig up a frame to hold the bag up, to trap as much air inside the bag as possible.<br>

There are videos "someplace" on the internet on how to load a SS reel. It might be intimidating, but if you practice in daylight so you can see how it is done, it isn't so bad. I learned on SS reels, so it is actually easier for me than plastic reels.</p>

[bgelfand]

<p>Hi Jay,</p>

<p>When I have this problem it is usually due to letting the reel rotate in my hands until the lips where the film enters the reel are pointing down or even past vertical. Keep track of the lip with your thumbs.</p>

<p>When you run into troubles, put the film in the tank, put the rubber top on the tank, the tank is now light tight. Open your changing bag, air it out, relax, then go back to it.</p>

 

[maesphoto]

<p>A tip for cleaning the reels: use an electrical toothbrush with an old brush. It cleans quite thoroughly.</p>

[lambertus_s._hofstra1]

<p>Just to chip in:<br>

I understood your reels were clean, but if they ever do get dirty you can use the suggested tootbrush and a presoak for which I use a tablet designed for cleaning false teeth. Available in any supermarket or drugstore. As to using plastic reels in the first place: I sometimes put them on the radiator of the central heating to make them a bit warmer than the ambient temperature. That way even in the higher humidity of the changing bag (I have one of those nylon ones) there's no condensation on the reels. The real bonus of using plastic reels, by the way, is in my opinion not as much in the reels (although personally I find them much easier to use than steel) but in the tanks (that if you use Paterson Super System 4, you can fill them very quickly).</p>

[jean_yves_mead]

<p>Jay, <a href="http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps%20how%2035mm%20tank.html">this article</a> (from Roger Hicks' excellent site) may help you with loading a steel reel. I have found Kindermann steel tanks to be almost as quick to fill and empty as the System 4 tanks (tip them over a few degrees while filling to let the air out) and they're far less likely to leak when inverted - I always got hand cramps from twiddling my two-reel Paterson.<br>

With regards to your changing bag, there is a seller on eBay by the name of <b>roger_luo</b> who sells very nice heavy canvas

'granny-knickers'. They're light-tight and hard-wearing, they don't seem to get sweaty inside like vinyl bags, and the canvas

interior traps dust that might otehrwise end up in your developing tank.</p>

[cj8281]

<p>Hey Jay, what developer are you using and what size film, is this the efke 35 mm or 120? I am assuming the 4 min time came from the box that the film came in, correct? What instructions showed 12 minutes? I have found, for me, 120 loads easier on steel spools than 35 mm. I practiced a bit and have become proficient in loading the 35 on Nikor reels. It does take a bit more practice but the benefit for me was the less use of chemistry, 8 oz as opposed to 12 oz. Hang in there, it does get easier with experience. Use your ruined film for practice now. Sometimes my practice film was real easy to load because it was not wound as tight as regular film so I began keeping it wound as tightly as possible to help simulate film stored in cassettes. That definitely helped. I was lucky to find a few Nikor reels and tanks a few years ago so I know I am spoiled that way.<br>

I looked at the canvas bags on eBay and they are a bit more money but I think they might be worth it, I am planning on getting one sometime soon. Thanks Jean-Yves for the lead on that one.</p>

[jaydesi]

<p>I'm using Tmax developer and the film is 35mm Efke 25 ISO. The 4 min time did come from the box the film came in. I was following instructions from the Ilford website, appropriately called "Developing your first roll of b&w film."</p>

<p>I will have to learn how to load a steel reel, because I will be processing some 120 film and only have a steel tank for that. The downside is that I don't have any spent film to practice with. However, if I end up needing to waste a roll of rerolled 620 for its spool, then I can use that, since the film is the same.</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice on the "granny knicker" bags. I'll have to look into them, because I'm not always going to be able to run to the closet!</p>

[sfcole]

<p>Jay,<br>

I've come to the conclusion that my Patterson plastic reels simply don't work for 35mm. Whatever I do--clean, dry, even brand-new reels--the film starts to stick about half way in. I've tried everything and am convinced that stainless is better. 120 works well, but 220 (which is the same length as 35mm) also starts to stick.<br>

Scott</p>