Are we at the last decade of film based photography ?

[pete_andrews]

After looking at those comparisons, I can hear film beating the canvas and begging for mercy.<p>Right, digital has got pure resolution licked. Now, if only they'd stop fitting those ridiculously sharp-cutoff RGB filters in the sensors, we might see accurate colour from digital cameras as well.<p>Here's a hint to Fuji, Kodak, Sony, and the rest: Do the cones in the human eye have a spectral response that cuts off sharply between the Red, Green and Blue? Or do their sensitivities overlap almost from one end of the visible spectrum to the other?<br>Stiffer hint: You had it almost right with Kodachrome, Kodak.<p>If you think I'm nitpicking. Ever tried to reproduce a continuous spectrum on a digital camera, anyone?

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Yep....film is dying, so if you do traditonal buy all you can, if you dont...what do you care?

[chris_waller]

In 1851 the artist Paul Delaroche, on seeing an early photograph, said , "From today painting is dead". Well, painting didn't die - in fact there are more painters around today than in 1851. Mass market colour photography may well disappear but b+w will continue.

[bill_dembowski]

I don't believe that the demise of silver-based photography will come about as quickly as some gleefully predict. Take for example the case of home videos and home movies. Many expected that camcorders would have blown 8mm off the face of the earth by now, but a check of the Kodak site shows that they still manufacture 5 different kinds of Super 8 film for home use. If video hasn't replaced movie film in the last 10 years, digital isn't likely to replace traditional black and white in the next ten.

[MTC Photography]

There is no comparision between video vs digital camera<p>

The resolution of video is fixed by the NTSC/PAL standard of TV

broadcast, with NTSC it is always 625 lines per screen, interlaced,

and there is no such thing as quadrupling TV line density every three years, thus film is always superior to video.

[wayne_crider4]

It seems like the photograph has taken a back set to the

technology that produces it. Hm

 

On another note, I hope my eyes could see all that wonderful

resolution that digital cameras in the future will have.

 

And btw, I'd worry more about humanity than film.

[silverhalide1949]

I will use film based photography until the last silver halide is extinct. I hope that film based photography will continue in a similar way that painting did. There will always be a segment of the population that wants the latest & greatest up to date new etc. I am at a point in my life where I don't care about the latest. That dosen't mean to say that film will be limited to older people. I have a 21 year old niece who is totally commited to film and can't wait to build a darkroom.

[patrick_ingram]

I wasn't going to get in on this but... didn't Kodak just start up another production facility? Do you really think they plan to use it for five years and then pack it up? Some would argue that Kodak may have made a business error, but if they keep producing film it will keep being available.

[jeff_drew4]

Martin, please send me your gear when you decide to replace it with digital! ;-) Honest, my TLX will have to be pried from my cold dead hand, or just toss it into the pit along with the rest of me! Yes, digital is making rapid strides. Astronomy is grabbing it Big Time!

But, then there are older farts, like me, that resist the change. I like tinkering with gear, films, and chemistry. My concession will come soon in the form of a really nice film scanner and a digital rig for my telescope. I have noticed that the obsolescence of digital gear is way faster than some filmers. Gettting that stuff repaired should be a treat also.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

<i>Gettting that stuff repaired should be a treat also</i><p>

Nahh you just throw it in the trash and spend another $x000 for a new one. Isn't this why manufacturers love digital? I mean my Linhof TK45...14 years and counting. My Korona 12x20..made somewhere between 1929 and 1936...still working....

[dave_bazzel1]

Hi Martin, Extrapolating the recent past indefinately into the future doesn't work my friend. You can not with certainty assume Moore"s Law will work forever. We may get to the file size I mentioned but there will be limits. I study and understand investment markets the way I understand photography and tried unsuccessfully in the late 90's to convince people that mutual funds were NOT like bank accounts but yeilded 18% per year. They were sure because "history shows....." We discovered that asumptions of linear logic were very faulty. If/when we move full speed into the deflationary collapse that I expect we may have to wait a while for new technoloical advances. All-the-while I will be out with my Pentax 645N. Someday perhaps we will see what you imagine. I am simply cautioning you about making linear-logic asumptions about the future because of recent past experiences.

[MTC Photography]

Dave, stock market and productivity increase aret two different things, there are bull and bear market in stock market, but there is no such thing as productivity going backward<p> Once people made

14 MP camera, that technology cannot evaporate overnight like

Enron or Lucent stocks<p>

 

Further, Moore's law seems to work all the time for several decades

ever since the first Intel chip was made<p> And the density of digital

camera is still on the rise.

[pete_andrews]

Moore's law is the wrong philosophy to approach digital imaging with.<p>The "smaller is better" mentality that permeates the semiconductor industry is entirely wrong for making CMOS or CCD sensors.<br>Larger overall sensor sizes are what's needed, not a greater density of 'pixels' in a tiny little sensor chip.<p>Thank goodness someone has finally seen the light, and made full-frame 35mm size sensors available. Now the cost just needs to fall drastically, which it inevitably will.<p>Future development needs to be put in the hands of people with some awareness of optics, and the needs of photographers, and not just chip engineers.<br>It's the short-sighted engineering approach that's given us those pathetic 6mm x 8mm CCD sensors and "brick-wall" RGB filtering in both digital sensors, and film.<br>The Foveon sensor, if it ever appears, might be even worse. It seems to me that by using photon penetration depth as the colour filtering, you can't have anything BUT a sharp cutoff characteristic to the RGB channels.

[dave_bazzel1]

Martin, This is a discussion that I enjoy very much even though I know I am taking it a bit outside what you intended. Thanks for starting the thread! -- You said "there are bull and bear market in stock market, but there is no such thing as productivity going backward." Oh really???? Not exactly true if you time frame is lengthened past modern day. Many old hand crafts and skills have been for the most part lost. Can you make a pair of shoes? How about a simple thing like a rope? What advanced knowledge did we retain from very advance civilizations like ancient Egypt? Aztecs? Incas? How were the aquaducts built? we "modern people" have no clue but they were built never-the-less. Great advances were made of a nature quite different than our oil-electric technology that has been lost and is gone forever. Do you think society will advance in a linear way once the supply of cheap oil is gone in 10 to 20 years? Sorry for being to mystical/philosophical but these are things I've thought about quite a bit. Yes, society does advance but sometimes the internal cycles can be so long and so deep that perspective is lost for whole generations. Best wishes, Dave

[MTC Photography]

Jeff, Minox is actually working on a digital DLX, however, they have contacted with ccd sensor manufacturers, and the current available density of 1.3 MP does not meet their requirement, as expectation on

a DLX will be quite high<p>

I shall be happy with a 5 MP digital DLX in 4 oz package, which may come, my guess, by 2005.<p>

 

<p> MInox is still commited to film based 8x11, 35mm series cameras, they have offically lauched the Minox factory loaded

Agfa Copex Rapid Pan film at Photokina, 2002.

[MTC Photography]

Dave, "WW IV will be fought with clubs" a saying attributed to Albert Einstein.

[mark_smith10]

Did the bicycle dissappear with the advent of the moror car and motorcylce? Stop fussing and fixating on the medium, open your eyes, and follow your vision quest mark smith

[MTC Photography]

Yes, there are still people using 8" floppies, vacuum tube amplifier

and stoneware too.

[MTC Photography]

If Moore's law is applicable to capacity of ccd sensor<p>

By April 2003, we shall see 20 MP digital 35mm SLR<P>

By April 2004, 30 MP digital 35mm camera<p>

Let us wait and see.<p>But

I doubt anybody will make 8x10" ccd sensor.

[robert_davis2]

"Yes, there are still people using 8" floppies, vacuum tube amplifier and stoneware too."

 

 

I think this sums it up.

 

Film equals fine china

 

Digital equals paper plates

 

Film equals a beautiful tube amp.

 

Digital equals a tin can with string.

 

 

I think that sums it up nicely. If you care about quality you'll use film. If you want to go on a picnic you'll use digital.

[robert_davis2]

By 2005:

 

The Whitehouse pressroom will replace human photographers with automated digital cameras. Starting a trend.

 

 

 

By 2010:

 

 

most basketball/hockey arenas will be so covered with automated cameras that sports photographers will be extinct.

 

Most wedding halls will be moving to similar setups.

 

By 2015: Walmart will install walk-in automated protrait digital booths.

 

By 2020:

 

No digital cameras will be used by humans. Well outside of the odd antique show.

[mark_smith10]

Digital imaging will soon be surpassed by another evolution of imaging technology. Some of us will cling and deny, others will ride the latest tide thinking it will alone will bring forth their art. Still others will not mistake the pointing finger for the moon,nor the forest for the trees, and use what is around them to express the deep need to reveal personal vision and art.Had the cave dwellers gazed only at their resources, petroglyphs would never have been born. While we all go round on this debate.....the sun comes up...so catch the magic while you can and stop fussing mark smith

[stefan_geysen]

Went to the Photokina yesterday.

 

Digital was all over the place. Lots of industry-sized digital printing systems. Very impressive LARGE prints from Sigma SD9, Fuji S2, Kodak Pro 14n, Kodak and Phase One MF backs. Canon presented their Eos 1Ds, unfortunately no large prints (they did have some A4-sized samples, with all the quality one could ask for). At Sinar, the P3 and the 22 megapixel back got all the attention.

 

Film products where there, but sometimes you really had to search for them. Kodak and Fuji did show some large prints from their current film lineup. Other booths with beautiful film-based prints: Schneider and Mamiya.

Ilford however, which had a fairly large booth, had devoted 99.9% of it to its inktjet products.

 

All in all, it was nice to see the true potential of digital, not just on a computer screen, but large printed output too.

I expect a lot of MF users will switch if the prices of the 10 to 15 megapixel SLR's come down. Widespread commercial LF use is already "lost", or so it seems. Too bad, it's like having to say goodbye to an old friend.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

On one side you have the photokina little review Stefan gave us, wonderful up to the minute, state of the art technology. Then you start to read the cost of each gizmo....the Kodak back for the new Hasselblad H1...$11,000. LOL.....so maybe in the US and some other industrialized countries these toys will be used by some people. In many parts of the world the reality is that nobody can afford to use these cameras and accesories. Let me give you and example, in Mexico, minimum wage is $300 USD a month....lets say you are a recent college graduate, $600 a month....no way people are going to buy a digital camera, computer, printer, when they can just pop the 35 mm film in the camera and spend 4 bucks in developing. Will digital replace film...maybe, but not in this decade, unless someone finds a way to wipe out poverty and makes corporations behave like inhabitants of this planet and not the greedy SOB's they are!

[edward_zimmermann]

Martin Tai mused: "<cite>Jeff, Minox is actually working on a digital DLX</cite>"<P>

Who are you kidding! Do you really believe that! Even Agfa has seen that they can't float in the consumer digital imaging market.. and you think MINOX GmbH, some little company without R&D funds are working on...? If working on means... are looking to OEM... then I'd say..

<P>

Martin: "<cite>however, they have contacted with ccd sensor manufacturers, and the current available density of 1.3 MP does not meet their requirement, as expectation on a DLX will be quite high</cite>"

<P>

So they'll wait untill $99 USD Webcams have enough density so they can relabel and have some plastic made to try to get the "Fans" to pay $300 USD. Can you say Digital M3.. The ironic thing is that the the new Digital M3 is not a camera but a collectible.. The vanguard is in the toy and not the application... pen cams with a superior Minox B design and ergonomics have been around for under $99 USD for some time now.. MINOX offering the product tommorrow that others offered yesterday..

<P>

Martin: "<cite>I shall be happy with a 5 MP digital DLX in 4 oz package, which may come, my guess, by 2005.</cite>"

<P>

<strong>Today</strong> you might be happy for a 5 MPixel pencam but in 2005 you'd not be.. In 1992 you might have been happy to get a 32-bit 100 Mhz machine but today you look at 1 GHz takt PCs as historic junk.. That rule about computers "<cite>Any Computer is after a few weeks too slow</cite>" will indeed apply to digital image capture.. Just a few years ago a pen cam with 1 MPixel might have sounded sweet.. today it sounds like.. what it is... a $39 toy..

<P>

Martin: "<cite>MInox is still commited to film based 8x11,</cite>"

<P>

Ha Ha..

<P>

Martin: "<cite>35mm series cameras,</cite>"

<P>

You mean those plastic Balda cameras that are already being phased out...

<P>

Martin: "<cite>they have offically lauched the Minox factory loaded

Agfa Copex Rapid Pan film at Photokina, 2002.</cite>"

<P>

That was NOT the work of MINOX GmbH but of Marcus Dunkmann and his <A HREF="http://www.8x11film.com">8x11film.com</A> together with Schain (of Schain and Partner).

<P>

The only thing one can attribute to MINOX GmbH is that they have agreed to play along, seeing that these new developments are in <em>their</em> interest.. The motor, however, is not MINOX but enthusiasts like Marcus.