Gay wedding photography question

[mpblaze]

<p>I have a quick question for all of you, but before I say this I want to say that I am not trying to anger anyone<br>

Personally I believe that it is wrong to be gay, and I have been thinking of being a wedding photographer, then I thought about what would happen if a gay couple asked me to shoot their wedding I could not, in good faith, shoot the wedding. Would there be any legal repercussions? Does anyone else have any thoughts about moral obligations and photography?</p>

[henryp]

<p><em><strong>MY PERSONAL OPINIONS</strong> </em> :<br>

Let's say I disagreed with you. Should I not sell you cameras? Let's say I work for a camera store owned by an ultra-religious individual. Should I not sell cameras to people who may be using them to create porn?<br>

Let's then say times are tough right now. Do you have the financial elasticity to reject jobs for people whose lifestyles are not aligned with yours?</p>

<p>Let's say "live and let live?"</p>

[mpblaze]

<p>Thats not what I'm saying, wedding photography is a service, not a retail store.</p>

[patricklavoie]

<p>I have a quick question for all of you, but before I say this I want to say that <strong>I am not trying to anger anyone</strong> .. I believe that it <strong>is wrong to be gay.</strong></p>

<p>i would become invisible if i was you, not a photographer ; )<br>

<em><br /> </em><br>

<em>**moderator, it obviously seem like this thread will degenerate in no time.. any miracle could happend before its too late?</em></p>

[bobatkins]

<p>I guess it would be the same as a wedding photographer refusing to shoot a Black Couple, or an Inter-racial Couple, or a Jewish Couple, or a Fat Couple. or a Disabled Couple.</p>

<p>I don't know what the legal situation is, but I'd say that if you offer a service you should offer it to everyone, not just people you "approve" of. If you were an auto mechanic would you refuse to repair a Gay customer's car?</p>

[mpblaze]

<p>I dont' think it is the same, it is against my religious beliefs. I am not asking if you agree with me, I was asking if anyone has experienced something along the same line.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>Patrick - If the thread degenerates, I'll close it. It's not about whether or not it is "wrong" to be gay. It's about whether a wedding photographer has the right to pick and chose only those customers whose lifestyle he (or she) approves of. That lifestyle could be anything.</p>

<p>Please take any discussion of the morality of homosexuality to another forum. This is PHOTO.net.</p>

<p> </p>

[cabbiinc]

<blockquote>

<p>Would there be any legal repercussions?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That would be something to ask a lawyer. But chances are if you're that disturbed by the thought I doubt that you'd get asked. Just make sure that you interview all clients first and they'll get a feel for if you'll be a good match. I'm sure that there are plenty of straight people that wouldn't be a good match either, you could look like the bride's ex-boyfriend for example.</p>

<p>Just my two cents.</p>

[mark_chartrand]

<p>Matt,</p>

<p>I suppose you can turn down a job for any reason. I don't think I would tell anyone the reason you did not want to do the job, though. I don't know what legal problems you could get into, but why push the issue? Perhaps you are busy on that day?</p>

<p>I don't think I would turn down a wedding of a mixed racial, religious, ethnic, same-sex or any other type of arrangement. That is the couple's business, not mine -- but that's just me. I think I would consider myself just the photographer. My job is to take the best photographs possible of a very important event for the happy couple (or threesome or whatever). I would leave judgement to another "person" on another day.</p>

<p>Mark</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>It's exactly the same thing. You're discriminating against customers based on your own personal beliefs. A professional doesn't do that. You can hold any opinion you want, but you do the job to the best of your ability. You don't have to marry them, you just take the pictures.</p>

<p>I don't think there's any legal requirement to take every customer who contacts you. If you were advertising a job or an apartment, then it would be different. I'm sure you could find some excuse not to work with people you don't like. I assume every wedding photographer does that. Your choices are to make up some excuse ("I'm busy that day") and lie to them or tell them you're discriminating against them because they are gay. Your choice.</p>

<p>The thing not to do would be to take the high ground, tell the truth and advertise your services with a rider that says "No Gays need apply". Then I think you'd have problems. I'm not Gay but I wouldn't do business with you and I think a lot of other people would feel the same way.</p>

[nealcurrie]

<p>Your best bet would be to consult a lawyer.<br /> This topic could get ugly in a hurry - hopefully it doesn't. I view sexual preference as just another human characteristic, like hair colour, so take or leave my advice as you wish.<br /> I doubt very a much a gay or lesbian couple would want you shooting their wedding any more than you would want to shoot their wedding. If you live in an area with several wedding photographers, you could probably recommend to them other photographers without any issues. If there aren't other wedding photos in the area, then I think you might have a legal problem if you were approached and turned them down.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Their romance doesn't affect your shutter speed.</p>

[peter_mounier]

<p>It depends on where you are setting up business. "In addition to the protections against discrimination provided under federal law, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act. For example, California's Unruh Civil Rights Act makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress or sexual preference.<br>

In the 1960s, the Unruh Civil Rights Act was interpreted to provide broad protection from arbitrary discrimination by business owners. Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were."</p>

<p>http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-articles/business-right-to-refuse-service.html</p>

<p>Check your local laws to see if it is legal where you live.</p>

<p>Personally, I don't believe being straight or gay is a choice. </p>

<p>Peter</p>

[ben_goren]

<p>Matt,</p>

 

<p>I think you’ll find that a small but not-insignificant number of superb wedding photographers find

Christianity (and other religions) to be ludicrous stem-to-stern.</p>

 

<p>Actually, you’d never <em>actually</em> discover that because they’re true

professionals who would not insult their clients by letting them know their private thoughts on the

matter.</p>

 

<p>I suggest you either grow up and stop being offended by the fact that not everybody sees the

world the same way as you, or abandon the thought of becoming a wedding photographer.

Otherwise, you’ll be constantly tormented by this same dilemma. After all, what if (horror of

horrors!) an Episcopalian couple asked you to marry them? Just think of all the blasphemies you

might hear from the celebrant during the ceremony!</p>

 

<p>Cheers,</p>

 

<p>b&</p>

[bobatkins]

<blockquote>

<p>Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Not even Republicans? What's the world coming to...</p>

[riley_s1]

<p>Hahaha.<br /> Hypothetically, were I to be in your position, I would mention my (ignorant) views to the couple, and hope that they would choose another photographer.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>wedding photography is a service, not a retail store.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not so. In the US, although I believe anti-discrimination laws vary state-to-state, federally, in the eyes of the law, there's no difference between you refusing to photograph a same-sex wedding, and a store in Selma, AL with a 'no coloureds' sign. So if it becomes known that you have refused to do business with someone because of their sexual preference, you're pretty much inviting civil action.</p>

<p>In a couple hours it'll be 2010. This isn't going to go away, so you'd best get used to it. Or move somewhere else, like Saudi Arabia, or Nigeria - that'd work too.</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>It may be state-by-state, but you should check out Vanessa Willock vs Elane Photography. Discrimination cost Elane Photography a lot of money.</p>

<p>You should also think about how you would feel if a gay cab driver refused to pick you up because he saw you coming out of your church.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>Folks,</p>

<p>This thread is really on the edge as far as I am concerned. Far too many people are unable to just state facts without taking some sort of dig at people or beliefs systems that they do not enjoy. While the OP may have been asking for it with the fairly blunt way he presented his original question, we do not need this sort of "bad blood" on photo.net.</p>

<p>If you've got facts, state facts. If you feel the need to attack, please keep your fingers off the keyboard. There are more than enough snide remarks on this thread to let the OP know what the general opinion is of his statements.</p>

[eric merrill]

<p>I'm not a lawyer.</p>

<p>Personally, I would find another line of business if my religion dictated I should break the law and wrongfully discriminate against people due to their sexual orientation (in some jurisdictions. You don't mention where you are located. </p>

<p>You should be able to use the information here to find more information about the case, but basically this is about a New Mexico photographer who violated the law by discriminating against a gay couple:</p>

<p><a href="http://volokh.com/files/willockopinion.pdf">http://volokh.com/files/willockopinion.pdf</a></p>

[bobatkins]

<p>I'm watching too. Please remember that we have a ban on "ad hominem" comments in these forums. That means you can comment on what the OP said, but you can't make personal remarks about him, no matter how much you disagree (or agree) with his views.</p>

[User_276104]

<p>I'm a freelance musician. The people that hire me are my clients. I don't have to take on any clients I don't want to work for, whether it be because I don't like them, their talent or the music they would want me to perform. </p>

<p>There's no need to explain why you wouldn't want to accept work from a client. "I'm booked that weekend" is all you have to say.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>Eric - That falls under my previous comment that you can either lie or tell the truth. Since the truth would hold you open to legal action, I guess the only alternative is to lie. Either way the service provider wouldn't exactly be on the moral high ground.</p>

<p>You are entitled to refuse to provide services because you don't like the customer or for some other justifyable (non-discriminatory) reason....but under various Civil Rights Stautes it is unlawful to base that dislike or reason on the customer's race, religion, sexual orrientation, disability status etc.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>. I don't have to take on any clients I don't want to work for, whether it be because I don't like them, their talent or the music they would want me to perform.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If you read the legal stuff, like the case I referenced, you will find out that you are wrong. And lying about it will probably increase any kind of judgement against you.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>Actually I suspect that refusal of service because you didn't like (and never performed) the music the client wanted to be performed would be OK. Similarly a photographer could refuse a client who wanted some type of photography that the photographer didn't normally do. So for example a wedding photographer could probably decline to shoot a Birthday Party on the grounds that although it was photography, they simply didn't shoot any type of birthday party. They just shoot weddings. However if it was later found that in fact they did shoot Birthday Parties, but always refused to shoot Black Birthday Parties, then they'd asking for a law suit.</p>

<p>As long as you deny service to everyone equally, you can deny service. Nobody can force you to play Bach or take pictures of birthday parties. You just can't pick and chose who you refuse service to on the basis set out under Civil Rights legislation.</p>

<p>You could though, for example, refuse to shoot nudist weddings, because nudists are not (as far as I know...) a protected class under Civil Rights statutes.</p>

[warrenlewis]

<p>Problem, You posted this on an easily search-able website. Anyone looking for some quick money can stop in to your studio, get refused service based on "you're booked that day", and sue for discrimination based on the information you posted. (I'm not a lawyer) <br>

However, based on your requirements, with careful, pinpointed advertising, networking and controlled word of mouth, in a community that supports your beliefs, you could end up with a successful business.</p>