When and how do you say “Enough. Please”?

[hjd]

<p>Thank you Daniel. I really like such a concret answer and I will do just that. This Mat leave will be spent not only bringing a baby into my family but I will be concentrating hard on making adjustments to my packages, pricing, business structure and most importantly, my contract. Thank you for your time in answering me.</p>

[eddes]

<blockquote>

<p>What's my prevention of dealing with this in the future?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>First say I am not a wedding photographer. But I have been managing large projects for more than 25 years. Usually in a professional setting.</p>

<p>You are obviously dealing with someone whose basic negotiating tactic is to push as long as there is give. You need to recognize this early on. As soon as the person starts to use a counter offer as the basis of their argument and not their own need you have a person playing games. Also another indicator is irrelevant arguments (we are having financial troubles is not a reason for you to discount. It a reason to offer a smaller package) Waiting to the last minutes to respond...etc. From that point on then you need to state <strong>Simply</strong> and politely you cannot budge. (I am sorry but that is not possible) After a few rebuttles they should get the message that they have reached the limit and must conclude. If they continue your ultimate fall back position is "I am very sorry but since we cannot come to an agreement on a modified package then we will execute the contract as stated". They may get upset (it's a tactic natural or learned) but just give them the time to work out their emotion (and yours) and come back to the facts.<br>

Do not take this experience as an indicator of how to negotiate with most people. Most people negotiate in good faith. Just listen to the signs of a game player and then become ruthless (Use simple direct polite language).<br>

For this case give her the disk (after she sign off on the addendum and you have payment) then never do business with her again. If she calls, politely and simply inform her she has a high res disk and that anyone can make albums for her. You do not have time available.</p>

<p>Good Luck</p>

<p>Edmond</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<ul>

<li>I wanted to ensure I was still fulfilling my OWN side of the contract by changing it now. </li>

</ul>

<p>Nope. The contract is quite clear what should be delivered and that does not change until <em>both parties</em> agree. Strictly you do not need to agree in writing but that is the only way to prove what was said. <br>

In cases like this (as I thnk you have found out), the less you say the better. It is tempting to justify yourself and in so doing you are only giving them moer opportunity to pick holes in your side of the story (especially if lawyers get involved!). To paraphrase Bill Clinton "It's the album, Stupid".</p>

<p>Be careful with what you say and how you say it. You now have 2 'offers' on the table: first, the contract that includes album; and second the offer that includes disc instead of album. When she realises you have had enough and won't budge, my guess is that she will then demand the albumn (as contracted) and the disc becaouse you have offered it to her and, as far as she is concerned, that is a unilateral offer and therefore binding.</p>

<p>I think the the comments by Daniel and Edmond are excellent advice. Occasions like this are lessons that can very quickly show you the warning signs.<br>

The best way to prevent it in future is make sure your contract is comprehensive and secondly deliver <em>nothing</em> until it is mentioned in writing. As long as you are highly professional and objective in the way you approach this then no-one will have any problems with it.</p>

[surfidaho]

<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>Mike, let's not confuse the poor girl. ;^<)></p>

<p>Heather, regardless of what the bride demands, tell her she gets one of two things: An album, or a disk.</p>

<p>If the bride says "Both", say "No."</p>

<p>If the bride says "Album", say "Yes", bite the bullet, and deliver an album according to the original contract.</p>

<p>If the bride says "Disk", modify the contract to exclude all prior terms and deliver just a disk with full distribution and printing rights. Don't let her talk you into anything else. No albums, no wall prints, no t-shirts, no baby outfits, no coffee cups. Just a disk. Make her sign the addendum first and return it to you, then you sign it and send her a copy. Then you send her a disk, and say goodbye <strong>forever</strong> .</p>

<p>I don't think it can get much simpler than that.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

[bobbollinger]

<p>I am a lawyer in the US. Canadian contract law was probably derived from English common law, just like American law, so I suspect it is very similar to US contract law. <br>

John Henneberger and Paul Thomas have both given excellent advice in this thread from my lawyerly perspective. <br>

Be prepared to honor the contract fully, but if you are willing to offer a modification to it, put it in writing to her (email is ok) and put a deadline on it for her to accept the modification in writing. Your offer expires if she does not accept in writing by the deadline. If she has already missed the deadline, then don't offer any more modifications. <br>

Once the deadline passes without her accepting, forget it and move forward with fulfilling the contract you have. If you need her input to do that, give her one reasonable opportunity to give it, by sending her an email asking her to set an appointment that is convenient to both of you to come in and give her input. Tell her you will fulfill the contract (albums) using your best judgment if she does not make or keep the appointment. Give her a deadline for making the appointment. Be reasonable. And stop talking to her about any other terms. The more oral communications you have with her at this point the more likely you are to get yourself into a bigger and more expensive mess. All discussions should be written so you can protect yourself. This kind of person is likely to sue you so you have to protect yourself with written communications. Good luck. </p>

[osfania]

<p>Once you give her the high-rez, she will go off and print her own photos, put together her own albums (or pay someone to do it - with your photos!) and completely ignore all of your copyrights. I would at this point go back to the original contract (or as far back as you can go) and hold firm. Good luck. (At least you didn't marry her! Can you imagine the life her husband is in for!!!)</p>

[Landrum Kelly]

<p>"Hell is other people." --Jean-Paul Sartre</p>

 

[brookref]

<p>Allow me to back up what Bob B has said, regarding John H and Paul T. But as someone accustomed to dealing with international lawyers and financiers, allow me to suggest you simplify things even further: You already have a contract. It's been discussed and redefined.</p>

<p>So simply deliver what is in the contract.</p>

<p>Forget about the disc, don't worry about the trademark infringements, just be shut of her as quickly as you can at this point. You don't want her as a repeat customer. Most cases where photographers complain on Photo.net, the easy and correct answer usually is "the customer is king". This woman appears to be beyond reasonable customer service. Heck, she seems beyond EXTRAORDINARY customer service.</p>

<p>This is about abuse and no one should ever take it. She is a bully, nothing more.</p>

<p>You only need worry about meeting the stipulations of the signed contract. Any referral customers you may have lost - well, you likely do not want those sorts of customers anyway. Again, usually this is not the case but as someone said, most people negotiate in good faith. Those that don't are not worth the price of tea in China.</p>

<p>And here's a secret I've learned from dealing with people like her: you do NOT have to respond to every email or phone call she makes. It's not rude or avoidance, you are (innocently) simply working on the terms stipulated by the contract. </p>

<p>So forget about another contract revision. Forget about amending the product. Forget about the disc. Ship whatever was in the last signed contract you have. She can certainly complain but will not have a leg to stand on. Live up to your end of the contract, and be able to prove it, and there is nowt more she can do. And while most of us are loathe to turn to legal action, remember that the law works for you as well. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[dogbert]

<p>I would go back to her and say that you intend to fullfil the orginal contract. Tell her that she can have the additonal work but that I view of the additional time and effort you have put in she will have to pay for it, including the additonal time you have spent responding to her emails.</p>

[Marc453]

<p>I can't recommend a course of action to prevent this from happening again,but I will tell you what I do when someone comes to me to book a wedding. Before I actually agree to shoot the wedding I explain to the bride what she will get from me. I read her the contract paragraph by paragraph and when necessary, explain things so that she clearly understand what I said and meant. I explain what her payment will buy and that once she agrees and signs the contract there are no changes. I also explain that all payments must be made prior to the day of the wedding. Yes, I have had brides turned off and refuse to hire me. I also have had some brides try to negotiate other packages that they claim they must have. In some cases, if it doesn't cost me more money, or I felt it would not be a problem, I would modify my package. But there were some brides and bride's advisors who made just ridiculous or utterly incredulous requests or demands. In these cases, I would recommend they contact another photographer. There are somethings you should not do and some clients you should not take.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Prepare an addendum that gives the bride full rights to the images, get the bride to sign it, and send her the images.<br>

Any loss of whatever "copyright" benefits you may have had from the images will be more than compensated by peace of mind.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That would be my advice too. I doubt that she would be coming back to you for prints anyway and you have no use for the images yourself.</p>

[railphotog]

<p>I checked out today's "What the Duck" cartoon online (Dec 7) and it reminds me of this situation. Two humans are talking to the duck photographer, ask him to sit down. The duck asks why, the humans reply "So we can walk all over you". This is what has happened here!</p>

<p> </p>

[plasma181]

<p>Tell her she has a week to abide by the signed contract, or all full resolution, no-watermark images will be destroyed. Then destroy them. <br>

You will feel much better. </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>I sincerely hope that the advice about giving the bride an ultimatium and then destroying the images was in jest. </p>

<p>If the images are destroyed, Heather may find herself in a whole lot sticker mess than she already is.</p>

<p>Heather - you've gotten some really good advice here. Time to cut bait, get a signed addendum to the contract, give the Bride the images and the "copyright" and let her produce what she wants.</p>

<p>Remember folks - what's put in e-mail / writing can and will come back to haunt you...</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[Member69643]

<p>Although this won't be much help here, I'm posting it to help in similar situations in the future. One "technique" that I've used is to not respond immediately to emails. I'm not talking about pushing their emails off for a week, just a day or two. Take your time to reply, be very careful, and talk it over with other people if you can. If you respond immediately it makes them think you are at their beck and call. It can also make you seem too anxious, eager to please, etc. Now for some clients, being prompt is proper, but when things start to go down this sort of path, a bit of delay helps you to see things more clearly, takes a bit of the emotion out of it, and sends a message that your time is valuable and that you have other things to do beside be the client's personal servant.</p>

<p>Again, some clients show respect and promptness, give them the same in return.</p>

[brookref]

<p>Yes, what Wolfeye said is absolutely correct. Often it doesn't need to be a whole day or two; simply waiting a few hours takes all the urgency out of the other party. It's something that skilled negotiators use all the time. If ever challenged, they will say "I am working on an appropriate response."</p>

<p>This is not something you should use all the time but keep it in your arsenal for dealing with difficult clients. Keep in mind that that real aim is not to avoid them or to make some power play. Rather it is to give yours some room to maneuver. As they say, trade space for time. </p>

 

[surfidaho]

<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>Many people have suggested abiding by the original contract and delivering an album. The trouble is, if Heather retains the images, she will never be rid of this person.</p>

<p>I stand by my last post. It's time to cut the cord.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

<p> </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Paul -</p>

<p>I agree with you wholeheartedly - get a signed agreement from the bride saying the contract is complete and whole. </p>

<p>Just don't "Delete the images" .... because we all know that in 5 years the bride is going to be calling asking for them again... and unless you can prove that your "normal" business practice is to delete images after so many months, years, etc... you're the one in trouble.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[paul_reklaitis]

<p>This lady may be "demanding", but that just means that her friends probably follow her like sheep! You make her happy, and she will tell 1 or 2 friends how good your were. You make her mad and she'll tell 500 people how terrible you were. Just because she is difficult, doesn't mean that her referrals will be! Good luck.</p>

<p> </p>

[hjd]

<p>A ton of great advice! Thank you very much. I’ve read all of your responses and think most of them are right on the mark. She has a deadline as of the end of this week to respond to the offer that is on the table, otherwise it’s back to the original contract and I’ll do up her album with her choices she did send the day of my Leave and send her on her merry way.<br /> <br /> As far as her owning the copyright, getting referrals from her, or trying to get prints purchased by her, none of those are important to me anymore. She’ll never purchase enough prints to make up for the extra $$ that went into her wedding or for my time spent on her, and I’m not thinking that I would really cherish her referrals either. I can imagine what she’d say. “Go to this photographer. You can get everything for $cheap$!” No. Thank. You.<br /> <br /> I really like the idea of withholding on responding to emails/phone calls, especially in situations like this. I always wanted to be prompt but I can see how holding off in some cases would have helped. Just for ‘fun’, I counted no less than 26 emails and 6 phone calls from my Bride in the last 3 ½ weeks. I didn’t reply to each & every one as I would combine them after waking and finding another 3 more. Walking all over? Yeah, I’ve been a doormat.<br /> <br /> All the legal advice has been fantastic as well as what to do with client consultations in the future. I need to be clearer about what the B&G will be getting BEFORE they sign and figure out then if they are the right client for me. Not post-wedding. I like the idea of a prepared addendum to the contract because I don’t doubt that she’d be the kind of Bride to come back and try to find a reason to sue. I want this closed, but I need to do it right.<br /> <br /> I’ll keep reviewing all of your responses so I don’t miss anything but I want to thank each of you for your time. It’s been a learning curve and will continue to be but it’s nice to know there’s support when you need it. Thanks again.<br /> <br /> Now to go and enjoy this crazy -33C (-27.4F) Canadian weather. Brrr.<br /></p>

[joe_taylor5]

<p>Let her buy one pic at a time for after she pays a fee for storage of the original media.</p>

[andrewknots]

<p>I think the thing you need to remember is that your <em>offers</em> are in fact <em>invitations to treat</em> which have not been agreed. Absent the completed agreement, your original contract stands, even if you have made proposals, when the other party makes counter proposals, those proposals have been rejected.<br>

Given the stress this bride is giving you, I urge you to enforce the contract that exists, and if you need to go on leave, subcontract fulfilment on those terms, even if it costs. Don't let her mess you about, just take such return as you can and walk with positive cashflow.</p>

[christian_odell1]

<p>Seems like everyone here covered all the bases, but I wanted to add this small bit.<br>

To avoid the OP's specific problem with "copyright/logo/watermark cut off" I always use a watermark that is large and overlays the actual middle of the image at about 20% transparency. It's light enough to see the image, but big enough no one would chop it to keep a piece of the picture alone.</p>

 

[KenPapai]

<p><em>"And I'd hardly call a FaceBook image with your watermark cropped off a copyright infringement. Who cares? "</em></p>

<p>I would and it is. Of course. People who post other people's work on FB deserve to be bashed... esp. when they crop out the © watermark.</p>

<p>Despite what you "think", photographers DO CARE. What a weird statement. Anyone who does good work and has WORKED to get there CARES.</p>

[lorenzo_ward1]

<p>so what happened in the end? did Heather get the mollah?</p>