When and how do you say “Enough. Please”?

[jeff_livacich]

<p>You should tell her "enough".<br>

In my experience, some people will take agreeability, "niceness", cooperativeness, etc., as a form of weakness, and don't respect boundaries until you set them and hold them. It's sort of "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" taken to selfish extreme. I don't see her stopping until she's squeezed you for everything she wants.<br>

I have had to learn the hard way after having been played like a fiddle myself more than once. Most folks are reasonable, but there's always those who aren't. Appeasing them or figuring that "now they'll be happy" doesn't work.</p>

[tomsmalling]

<p>Wash your hands of the problem. Put an offer on the table to sell her the images, copyright and all for three times the amount your seeking, and fulfilling the contract, and be done with it. If she truly wants the images, she'll pay and you can forget the whole experience and find a better client. You're spending too much time beating this horse, instead of finding a better client.</p>

[hjd]

<p>Well, I just got off the phone with her and she is going to take the offer of the High-Res disk, with a Print Release (not a Copyright) at the quoted cost in lieu of her albums. She also removed the FB image and put in it’s place the Watermarked version. If she wants to purchase the albums at a later date, she is welcome to do so. I will be drawing up an addendum to the contract as well.<br /> <br /> I actually do consider a cropped watermark to be an infringement and so does Canadian Law. Under the Canadian Copyright Law you are given what is considered ‘Moral Rights”.</p>

<ul>

<li><em>14.1 (1) The author of a work has, subject to section 28.2, the right to the integrity of the work and, in connection with an act mentioned in section 3, the right, where reasonable in the circumstances, to be associated with the work as its author by name or under a pseudonym and the right to remain anonymous.</em> </li>

</ul>

<p><br /> It is my right to be associated with the work and it is considered an infringement if I am not. I can choose to not have my name associated with it (remain anonymous) or waive these rights altogether, but for the most part, just as Ken mentioned, I do care about having my name on my work. Also as far as Facebook goes, I think it is one of the worse places to have images posted without an associated mark. Not only by Facebook’s own Terms and Conditions that they can use images however they would like, but images get stolen from there everyday. I have had colleagues wind up in court because their image got used for an Ad that they don’t endorse. <br /> <br /> As far as having larger WM’s, mine actually has gotten larger, but it was an image from my second shooter and her WM is placed off to the side.<br /> <br /> But this thread isn’t about Copyright or watermarks, so I digress.<br /> <br /> The point is that my Bride has agreed to the offer. In my phone conversation with her it was quite apparent that she didn’t like my ‘Cut-n-dry’ attitude in my last few emails, felt she was <em>owed </em> all the images, and was annoyed that she had actually paid me before the wedding. I had to keep reiterating that what she was ‘<em>owed</em> ’ was in the contract and that was her albums & prints. Nothing more. She could still have those if she so choose but where she wanted all images, she could take the deal and we’ll make an addendum to the contract giving her the images but taking away the albums.<br /> <br /> I think had I not gotten the advice I was given here in the past while, I wouldn’t have known how to deal with it all but because of all the great advice, once she signs the addendum, I have the $$ in hand for the disc… case closed!<br /> <br /> Thank you!!!</p>

[bms]

<p>Heather, thanks for sharing your experience. I think many can learn from this...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The point is that my Bride has agreed to the offer. In my phone conversation with her...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Get it in writing, get the $ if any owed, relax (as much as you can with a delivery in the near future - you deserve it), screen your calls for 6 months and bounce her emails..... ;}</p>

<p>Best of luck</p>

[hjd]

<p>lol. Thanks Ben. ;0)</p>

[jeff_livacich]

<p>That's great. You needed to be rid of this Bridezilla.<br>

BTW, good luck and best wishes with the delivery!</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong ><em >"If she wants to purchase the albums at a later date, she is welcome to do so. I will be drawing up an addendum to the contract as well."</em></strong><br>

<br>

A bluntly put question Heather JD, you state passionately that you have read all the wonderful advice and have thanked many people for it. . . <br>

<br>

I scanned the answers (and I recall the previous post and the many answers there too) . . . the thrust of most capsules of advice can be summarized in these three quotes from this thread:<br>

<em >> <strong >"finish the deal"</strong></em><br>

<em >> <strong >"[ensure that] this is final</strong> and you will not entertain any further negotiation"</em><br>

<em >> "get a signed agreement from the bride saying the contract <strong >is complete and whole.</strong>" </em><br>

<br />Why then would one even consider adding an annexure to the contract and thus inviting more dealings down the track?<br>

<br>

IMO, when people take time to offer advice, there is a point where the novice's RE-actions are judged and as such, future advice or comment might be constrained accordingly. <br>

<br>

You see, in business, we down here are simple folk who generally call a spade a spade . . . we would take this action as a slap in the face: If mentoring a Novitiate a gift (of advice) is given freely and willingly, but then the Novitiate is judged, usually closely and critically, by how that advice is treated.<br>

<br>

Just another element of the picture to think about, IMO. <br>

<br>

WW </p>

<p > </p>

 

[hjd]

<p>Hi William<br /> To answer as bluntly as I can:<br /> <br /> <em><strong>“finish the deal”</strong> </em> – I did just this by giving her a final deadline to either accept my offer I had initially on the table prior to posting here, giving no further opportunities to discuss changes to the deal.<br /> <em><strong>"[ensure that] this is final and you will not entertain any further negotiation"</strong> </em> - this has been stressed in both email and phone conversations with her since posting in this thread as well as it is included in the Addendum.<br /> <em><strong>"get a signed agreement from the bride saying the contract is complete and whole."</strong> </em> – this is in the Addendum I drew up stating she agrees to the offer of the disk, the albums are out, there will be no further negotiations and the contract is fulfilled. Done.<br /> <br /> <em>“Why then would one even consider adding an annexure to the contract and thus inviting more dealings down the track?”</em> <br /> <br /> 1) In the Addendum, there is nothing ‘inviting’ her to come back to me. It states quite bluntly that the albums are removed, and they cannot be requested under the original contract. The Addendum sticks very firmly to what I will be providing (the disc) and that the contract will be closed, all deliverables are accepted, I am released from any and all dealings with her and no further amendments or modifications will be permitted.<br /> 2) In an email to her, it is mentioned that my company and my second shooter will maintain archival of her images as we see fit and will only grant prints/albums in the future if we have the time, resources, and still have her images.<br /> 3) I won’t have the time, resources or her images.<br /> <br /> <em>“Why?”</em> - because before ever posting this thread, I had already offered it. I couldn’t flip it because I would have felt foolish telling her, no wait, now I can’t offer it to you because I was advised against dealing with you. I had to figure out what to do after the fact and drew up the addendum as suggested here and became very cut and dry in my phone conversations and my email correspondence refusing to budge any further.<br /> <br /> To answer anyone else as to why I didn’t just give her the albums and shut the door, because a) Album design takes time and further correspondence. Neither do I have the time for. b) Outsource it? I’ve already spent enough on her. c) Do it in the future? Because I wanted to be done with her NOW.<br /> <br /> I think the advice in this thread came in very handy for me despite that you might think my actions <em>“as a slap in the face”</em> to any or all of you that had advise to give. I DID follow much of what was said, took each piece of advice, figured out how it applied to me, what I could do to make it work and put it into practice.<br /> <br /> I think the pure fact that I AM done with her, she’s agreed to the deal and the Addendum, is evidence in itself that I did something right.<br /> <br /> <em>“IMO, when people take time to offer advice, there is a point where the novice's RE-actions are judged and as such, future advice or comment might be constrained accordingly.”</em> <br /> <br /> IMO, when people take time to offer advice, it is up to the novice to either decide whether that advice is suitable, whether it will work, and whether or not they are confident in following that particular advice. If future advice is constrained simply because a novice asked, followed the best they could and was judged<em> “closely and critically” </em> then the novice might soon learn where to turn for advice and where to avoid. Advice is just that. Advice. Not the letter of the law. IMO, I also feel it’s a bit sad that a novice can be judged so harshly, so quickly. Everyone has to learn and if anything education and knowledge comes a lot from failure. If I can’t fail, get up and dust myself off without someone rolling his or her eyes at me, they just show narcissism, something that I don’t hold much value for and the advice they give, even though it may be spot on, probably won’t hold value either.<br /> <br /> I stand by the fact that I am indeed grateful of the people that took the time to post in the thread. Many held the same opinion and because many posted this same opinion within such a short timeframe it certainly does not mean I wasn’t taking heed, ignoring it, or not being open minded. They all <em>“call a spade a spade”</em> but when it all comes within a few hours or minutes of each other, I think it only fair that I be given the opportunity to put in the work. And once again, if the contract is done, I am done dealing with her, I am HAPPY with the outcome, and I gave my thanks…<br /> <br /> What <em>are</em> you actually judging??</p>

[William Michael]

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Hi Heather.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you for your detailed answer.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Firstly I am not judging anything. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I was inviting you to consider another part of the equation – i.e. your relationship with those whom have given advice. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I was also warning you to a potential for the recurrence of this same scenario, later.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >In this regard to these two points, let’s look at precisely the words you used and which prompted my response:</p>

<p > </p>

<p ><em >“Well, I just got off the phone with her and she is going to take the offer of the High-Res disk, with a Print Release (not a Copyright) at the quoted cost in lieu of her albums. She also removed the FB image and put in it’s place the Watermarked version. If she wants to purchase the albums at a later date, she is welcome to do so. I will be drawing up an addendum to the contract as well.”</em></p>

<p > </p>

<p >>The first sentence means she has accepted the deal; she will take the disc, print release and no album.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >>The second sentence refers to the Watermark image.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >>The third sentence indicates that your will (continue to) offer the purchase of an album to her – and that she is invited “welcome to” take up that offer at a latter date.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >>The fourth sentence refers to an addendum to the contract – which I interpreted to be an addendum to the contract which is being drawn up (now) to void and supersede the original contract. To this new contract being darn up now you will have an addendum regarding the purchase of an album later, if the client wants.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >*** </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Now, whether or not I interpreted the last sentence correctly or incorrectly, <strong ><em >the third sentence most definitely is an invitation by you, for the client to continue a business relationship with you in regard to this Wedding.</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >The point I am making is, therefore, this is <strong ><em >not cut and dried ending</em></strong> it is <strong ><em >not put to bed</em></strong> and <strong ><em >it is not terminated.</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I acknowledge your arguments (in your last reply) that if the client, in six months time asks you to pull out the archival files and make an album for her – you might respond that you are too busy and have no time – then the Client might pester you – and then you might say OK, but I am too busy – and then she might pester you more and threaten legal action - and then you might post another thread asking “What should do?” and perhaps many folk who had previously said “Put it to Bed – for good” might write back saying “Told you so”</p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I repeat: I am not judging anything. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I appreciate that you appreciate the advice. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I recall my post on your first thread – my main thoughts were to get you back to your family and rid of this turmoil which is obvious an upset to you.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Again I state that my reason for posting on this thread was twofold.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Firstly to get you attention in blunt terminology such that you are aware that the matter is not being put to bed for good. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >And secondly to make you aware that each of us has a “switch off point” and it is my guess that if you do return with a thread about the same client pestering you for an album you might get a variety of responses. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >As to the “slap in the face” comment – that was a metaphor used just to get your attention.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >You have clearly indicated that you intend to (or have already offered) that the client may request an album to be made and purchased at a later date. That is a fact as stated, and as I quoted. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >IMO that is a poor business decision. Considering the history of the TWO threads on this matter: it is my opinion that this is a very poor Business decision. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >As noted: a novice has the option to take advice and use only that which she feels appropriate to her situation.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >What can I say? It's not a points scoring contest here - but another metaphor to grab your attention I think your score is six . . . I count over 1500 . . . and mine is just another viewpoint for you to consider. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >*** </p>

<p ><br />The bottom line is: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Whatever justification or reasons you proffer – <em >“If she wants to purchase the albums at a later date, she is welcome to do so” </em></p>

<p > </p>

<p >Does NOT mean that the matter is closed for good – it means that the matter is still, open. It means the Client has been invited to have more dealings with you in regard to these files. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >You should be aware of these facts.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >You should be aware of the potential consequences of these facts. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >All my comments here go address to your question about how to avoid these types of issues in the future.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Merry Christmas,</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW </p>

<p > </p>

<p ><br /> </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

 

[surfidaho]

<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>I have to agree with Double-W. It is EXTREMELY unethical and unwise to put something on the table with the intention of never delivering it.</p>

<p>Your argument about making the album dependant on whether or not you have the images is completely invalid. She can simply give them back and demand the album. As for time, she can sue you for the time.</p>

<p>It is ironic that of the two clear paths we all suggested, delivery on the original contract, or delivering a disk based on a new contract, you chose a third option that encumbers you with this person forever, whether you realize it now or not. I don't believe that ANYBODY in this forum recommended the route you took, and for good reason.</p>

<p>In short, you blew it. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are an incurable people pleaser who just cannot say no.</p>

<p>Learn to put your own interests first. Don't suffer on account of your clients.</p>

<p>Good luck. You are certainly going to need it if you keep doing business this way.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

[katrin_d.]

<p>While I understand your frustration, you're walking a fine line (legally) by saying <em>"In an email to her, it is mentioned that my company and my second shooter will maintain archival of her images as we see fit and will only grant prints/albums in the future if we have the time, resources, and still have her images.<br /> 3) I won’t have the time, resources or her images."</em><br>

This paragraph indicates that you're not entering into the agreement in good faith. Yes, you have the loophole "if we have the time ..." but at the very best, it's unethical to add this bit if you never plan on having the time, resources or the images. Just be honest and be done. Do you really want to open up this can of worms by having her come back in a couple of years/months/whenever and having to explain why you don't have the time, why you don't have the resources and what your policies are with regards to image storage in case you plan on destroying them.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"It is ironic that of the two clear paths we all suggested, delivery on the original contract, or delivering a disk based on a new contract, you chose a third option that encumbers you with this person forever, whether you realize it now or not. I don't believe that ANYBODY in this forum recommended the route you took, and for good reason."</em></strong><br /><br />One paragraph which summarizes about 23,000 words and over 90 opinions and comments, from the two threads.<br /><br />Well stated, Paul.<br />Later, <br />Double W</p>

 

[stanleys]

<p>It's funny that you mention narcissism.</p>

<p>1) In the Addendum, there is nothing ‘inviting’ her to come back to me. It states quite bluntly that the albums are removed, and they cannot be requested under the original contract. The Addendum sticks very firmly to what I will be providing (the disc) and that the contract will be closed, all deliverables are accepted, I am released from any and all dealings with her and no further amendments or modifications will be permitted.<br /> 2) In an email to her, it is mentioned that my company and my second shooter will maintain archival of her images as we see fit and will only grant prints/albums in the future if we have the time, resources, and still have her images.<br /> 3) I won’t have the time, resources or her images.</p>

<p>Is narcissistic behavior.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>". . . is narcissistic behavior."</em></strong><br>

<strong><em> </em></strong><br>

True, I agree. And it is a flaw apropos solid Business Thinking.<br>

But I let that personally directed comment slide - for me to respond to it would have inflamed the thread, I think.<br>

I assumed that Heather's passionate comment about Narcissistic Behaviour came from anger, rather than any constructive and level headed business thinking and analysis directed to address the twice posted issues.<br>

My intent was to get the OP passionate enough to do it right and or fix it right – and to fix it for ever. <br>

I am not, and never was interested in getting her angry at me.<br>

WW</p>

<p > </p>

 

[stanleys]

<p>Based on Heather's description of the situation, I believed that the client was being difficult.</p>

<p>My first post:<br>

<strong>I would give her the disc, realize that the bride will do what she wants with it, and move on.</strong><br>

This is (IMO) the best way to deal with someone who absolutely cannot see how their behavior affects other people (a narcissist).</p>

<p>Heather, winning a confrontation (by promising something, without intention of honnoring it), is what a narcissist would do.</p>

<p>WW, thinking that this was about you (you guessed it).</p>

<p>This is not a personal attack. Everyone (including me) exhibit these traits. Business dealings require an appreciation of another perspective. Sometime you have to cut and run.</p>

 

[hjd]

<p><em>you blew it.</em></p>

<p ><em>incurable people pleaser </em></p>

<p ><em>Good luck. You are certainly going to need it</em></p>

<p ><em>very poor Business decision</em></p>

<p ><em>unethical</em></p>

<p ><em>unwise</em></p>

<p ><em>my main thoughts were to get you back to your family and rid of this turmoil…</em></p>

<p ><em><br /> </em></p>

<p >So that’s what I’m going to do. I am not going to keep this thread going trying to prove and defend myself, no matter how much you pick my words apart. I have better things to do with my time than to keep this up.</p>

<p >Ciao!</p>

[surfidaho]

<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>Too late! It has a life of it's own.</p>

<p>Nobody misquoted you, or picked your words apart. You simply said some things that you shouldn't have.</p>

<p>Maybe you were just trying to impress us. If so, it was pretty lame.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Unfortunate ending. </p>

<p>WW</p>

[mitch_w1]

<p>Perhaps, William. But I, for one, found it to be an interesting and educational read - if nothing else than for its "cautionary tale" (valuable for one starting out like me). It's a chapter in "Difficult Client 101." Not a warm, fuzzy ending by any means but there are pearls of wisdom in this thread so thanks to you and everyone else for that. And good luck Heather - just move forward. Forget about this and enjoy the holidays.</p>

[katrin_d.]

<p>Mitch, I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that WW as referring to the "picking up my ball and going home" attitude, not the learning experience for anybody reading this. But I might be mistaken.</p>

[mitch_w1]

<p>Hi Katrin, I agree with your assessment. Was just reminding everyone that these threads are valuable regardless of the OP's ability to digest and implement the advice given. Thanks.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Katrin, Yes I was. Thank you. <br>

Also your "ball" metaphor was the exact phrase said to me in a conversation last night with a friend who is not a member of Photo.net, nor really a Photographer beyond a P&S happy snapper, but who has followed this thread and reads many others.<br>

<br>

Photo.net gets wide readership. It has a greater non contributory audience than many might take the time or effort to recognize.<br>

<br>

***<br>

<br>

Mitch, I agree. <br>

<br>

And I add that, I found your first comment, (<em>"Perhaps, William. But I, for one, found it to be an interesting and educational read . . . etc), </em>both personally rewarding and positive note on which to end.<br>

<br>

Thank you for that.<br>

<br>

Merry Christmas to you both.<br>

<br>

WW</p>

<p > </p>