First Pyro Roll - WD2D in Jobo Processor

[zarrir_junior]

<p>Hi, yesterday i processed my first 120 roll (FP4+ 125 ISO) in a Pyro developer. Since i have never seen any Pyro developed negative personally, i will describe what i did and the results so somebody can tell me if they are reasonable or not.<br>

I used WD2D second generation formula (without Benzotriazole). Please note i did not use WD2D+. Because i used a Jobo Processor, i increased Solution A by 30% (27ml). Also, because i like contrasted negatives, i used 23ml of Solution B instead of the recommended 20ml. 400ml of distilled water were added, making it a 450ml solution, enough to fill the jobo drum almost completely. So the process went as follows: Pre-soak in distilled water (2min), Developer for 7 1/2 minutes at 20°C (Jobo slowest speed - F), Wash with 6 changes of water, Fix with F-24 fixer (i have no alkaline fixer available), no hypo clear, 6 minutes wash in filtered water, Photoflo (1 minute).<br>

The result was a pretty yellow tint all over the negatives (when looked against a white surface), and extremely fine details on every image, fantastic tonal scale and contrast. At this point i must ask my first question: I always read that a perfect pyro negative will look unprintable at first look. Mine looks very printable. Maybe the slight acidic fixer removed some amount of staining? I printed one of the negatives in Dektol 1:2 for 1 1/2 minutes at 20°C on Ilford MGIV glossy. I have no scanner to attach the image here but the print shows much more detail than my regular (and up to this moment preferred) film developer which is D-76 1:1. The print however has an unpleasing warm tone. I checked the Dektol again and it is kind of light brown, maybe too much oxydated?<br>

So what do you guys think? When you look at pyro stained negatives what exactly do you see? Which paper developer do you prefer for them, to render neutral to cold tones? Well, it was a very exciting experience, specially having to wear gloves to prepare the chemicals and then wait for the results. Last, but not least, what is a reasonlable shelf life for WD2D solutions (A and B) in HALF FULL stoppered bottles?<br>

Zarrir</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>Hi Zarrir,</p>

<p>Congratulations! A good stained negative is a joy to behold, and a pleasure to print (and the same can be said for an unstained negative). Stained negatives introduce many peculiarities into your process, and it will take some time and experimentation to sort them all out. Fortunately, some of us have made most of the mistakes for you! First, about your negative- you say you've read, " a perfect pyro negative will look unprintable at first look". There is a grain of truth to this statement, in that many stained negatives that appear unprintable to the naked eye, in fact produce good prints. I wouldn't go so far as to say a perfect pyro negative should look unprintable. It should look thin, but not unprintable. It should also not be uniformly stained. A uniform stain is called "general stain", and it is to be avoided, as it acts just like fog.. General staining is common for many staining developers when used in a Jobo processor.<br>

About your print- your film developer has absolutely no influence on the image color of your prints. The effects of stained negatives on prints are contrast effects. When printing on graded papers, the effect is simple, but when printing on VC papers, the effects are more complex. I won't go into the details here, but in short, stained negatives print normally on graded papers, and with a split-grade effect on VC papers. Dektol is a good, neutral tone paper developer. Clayton makes some good paper developers in neutral and cold tone varieties. <br>

Last but not least, I don't know the shelf lives of your solutions, but I can tell you solution B will outlast solution A. I would think your A solution should last at least 6 months, but don't hold me to that. Good luck, and enjoy!</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Zarrir, I just started using this developer and also have stunning results with Rollei Retro 100 (haven't tried any tabbed film with it yet, and may not). The problem is they don't scan worth a darn, which I knew about before hand. But I did a print last night and it was just beautiful. I can't wait to spend some real time with it. I'm 90% hooked, but the inability to scan the negative is the 10% deal killer for me.</p>

[john_stockdale2]

<p>I haven't used WD2D but I've used PMK and Pyrocat-HD. I've always used inversion agitation (not at all vigorous) in a conventional hand tank, nearly full of diluted developer (leading to relatively low amount of oxidation) and I've been pleased with results.</p>

<p>I have had minimal general stain. Distinct but not bizarre image staining. I deliberately develop to a moderate contrast because I use a cold light head that seems to produce more contrast than most people get. The film edge (non image part) shows no obvious colour.</p>

<p>I can understand the appeal of rotary processing for large format negatives where a huge volume of developer would be needed to cover the film in a tank, but for 35mm and 120 the volumes are reasonable. You have mixed up 450mL, and in a Jobo 1500 hand tank 500mL covers a 120 film. Once again, I don't know WD2D but there are pyro and pyrocatechol developers that are extremely economical to make.</p>

<p>PMK has a reputation for long shelf life, and WD2D is similar but, importantly, the stock is not nearly as concentrated. This would, I'm guessing, lead to a shorter life than PMK. Maybe you could use colour of the stock as indication. I have had PMK stock die in half full glass bottle, but by that stage it was very dark indeed. It took a few years. Jay's guess at 6 months looks feasible.</p>

<p>F-24 is not a very acidic fixer. I have read of many people using standard non- hardening fixers (acidic, but not as acidic as hardening fixers) with pyro negs without a problem. A convenient source of almost-neutral fixer is Kodak Flexicolor fixer, made for color use, but fine for our purposes, both film and paper. It's cheaper than fixers labeled "black and white."</p>

[zarrir_junior]

<p>Thanks Jay. Yes, i was very amazed when i removed the roll from the Jobo reel. I had just developed 6 rolls in D-76 and left this last one (one i had made several backlit subject exposures) to pyro on purpose. Amazing result. Those 6 D-76 rolls look so politically correct and this pyro one so incorrect. I loved it. Will pyro work nicely for portraits? How can you tell the difference between pyro genuine stains and the undesirable general stain you mention? I mean, the negative image is dark yellow stained but the non-image parts of the negative look quite normal.</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>Zarrir,<br>

My own work is almost exclusively portraiture, and I use <a href="http://pyrostains.blogspot.com/">510-Pyro</a> for almost everything I do. Pyro was highly prized by portrait photographers since the early days of photography, and some of them claimed no other developer could produce the same smooth, glowing skin tones. I'm not sure I'd go so far, but for me, no other developer is as easy to use, or produces such consistently excellent results. I too use a Jobo (ATL 3) for the majority of my processing, and nothing could be simpler than 510-Pyro, and its shelf life is at least years.<br>

If the non-image parts of your negatives are not stained, then you have little or no general stain, which is a very good thing. You low values should show little apparent staining, and the stain in the highlights should be closely bound to the silver image. My advice to you is to print your pyro negs on graded paper for a while. After you've adjusted your process to get good prints on graded paper, you'll know what a good negative looks like, how much exposure is required, development time, etc. Then you can switch to VC paper without getting hopelessly confused. Good luck, and welcome to the pyro club!</p><div></div>

[john_stockdale2]

<p>For some wonderful portraits "mostly developed in PMK" have a look at:</p>

<p>http://edkrebs.com/thalia2/main.html</p>

 

[zarrir_junior]

<p>Wow, can´t wait to shoot some 8x10 portraits. I currently have in my fridge a box of Delta 100 and a box of HP5 400, 8x10 sheet film. Any ideas on a starting developing time for them on WD2D? Jay, i see you are a 510-pyro specialist. Unfortunately Phenidone is very hard to find here in Brazil, that´s why i opted for WD2D. But i actually became interested in 510-pyro first. Well, if pyro developers are good for portraits too, then i see no reason why not abandoning low shelf life developers forever. My next step will be brewing some alkaline fixer. Can´t wait to see an 8x10 contact print of my girlfriend...terrible that the paper options are so few nowadays...</p>

[peterbcarter]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm 90% hooked, but the inability to scan the negative is the 10% deal killer for me.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I have mentioned it elsewhere, but some films scan much better with infrared. The APX series of films are a good example. I bought 2 100' spools of kb400 because they were cheap. On first scan I thought it was junk. By accident I scanned infrared and all the bad grain just went away.</p>

<p>Here is an example of a normal scan <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/3906001238/in/set-72157622325666360/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/3906001238/in/set-72157622325666360/</a> , and the same one done in infrared <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/3906001252/in/set-72157622325666360/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/3906001252/in/set-72157622325666360/</a> .</p>

<p> </p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>Zarrir,</p>

<p>If you can get the other ingredients (Triethanolamine and ascorbic acid), you can substitute metol for phenidone at about 10X the amount of phenidone called for. For example: <br>

1 Liter 510-Pyro (metol)<br>

Ascorbic acid 50g<br>

PYROGALLOL 100g<br>

METOL 25G<br>

TEA to 1 Liter</p>

<p>If you've never made up a developer in TEA (triethanolamine), the procedure is a little different than making up an aqueous solution. start with about 1/3 the total final volume of TEA, or about 300ml, at room temperature. add all the chemicals, and stir into a uniform slurry. Add TEA to final volume, and then heat with stirring until the solution is clear and free of suspended particles. It might take quite a while, and the solution can get very hot, so be very careful. I use a hot plate/stirrer, so I can just let it work while I do other things, and check its progress occasionally. Once all the chemicals have completely dissolved, let the solution cool to room temperature before transferring to its storage container. The best storage container I've found for 510-Pyro concentrate is a medical IV bag, with a measuring syringe stopping the surgical tubing dispenser. These plastic bags hang from a hook and don't introduce air and moisture into the concentrate during dispensation; I just use the syringe/stopper to draw out the required volume of concentrate, and then return the syringe to the tube. This is a clean, simple, and efficient system. The IV bag hangs over my sink where I mix up my working solutions. My standard dilution for rotary processing is 1:100, which works very well with the small volumes required for rotary processing. My Jobo Expert 3005 drum for 8x10 sheet film requires 270ml, but I use 1ml of concentrate for each sheet of film being developed, with a minimum of 3ml in 300ml of solution . I simply add 3-5ml of 510-Pyro concentrate to 300-500ml of tempered water (depending on the number of sheets I'm developing), and stir. Average development times at 21C range from 5:30- 7:00. I've found this system to be practically fool-proof, and my results have been consistently satisfying. Most of the photos at my blog, mine and others', were processed this way. <br>

As for paper, <a href="http://www.freestylephoto.biz/c504-Black-and-White-Paper-Fiber-Based-Graded">Freestyle</a> offers a good range of FB graded papers. I particularly like Kentmere Kentona, and have made some satisfying 8x10 contact prints on that paper. Freestyle ships internationally. <br>

8x10 portraits are very close to my heart. I'm fortunate to have some wonderful old cameras and lenses in that format, and while that equipment has its limitations in the field or studio, contact printing a good 8x10 negative is pure joy. Good luck, and have fun!</p>

 

[zarrir_junior]

<p>Thank you very much for all this info, Jay. Do you use TEA 99% OR 85% ?</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>I use 99% TEA from <a href="http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=88696&child=88805">thechemistrystore.com</a> . </p>

[zarrir_junior]

<p>Any way DEA would work (dietanolamine)? Found it easier locally.</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>Zarrir,<br>

DEA might work, but to be honest, a DEA-metol version of 510-Pyro might be significantly different from the TEA-phenidone version I'm familiar with. DEA might raise the pH of the developer, and it might act as a silver solvent to some degree, which could produce finer grain, and/or reduced sharpness. I'd like to try it! DEA is very hard to find here. I've long been interested in using it in a single solution catechol developer, but I've never been able to find any. If you can get catechol, also called pyrocatechin, you might try the following formula:</p>

<p>Ascorbic acid 1g<br>

Catechol 10g<br>

DEA to 100ml</p>

<p>Mix as described for 510-Pyro. I'd be very interested to know how the above developer behaves. </p>

<p>Good luck, and happy experimenting!</p>

[zarrir_junior]

<p>I ordered some phenidone from Photographer´s Formulary. Unfortunately they are unable to deliver TEA overseas. So i might soon try a DEA-phenidone formula following your specs above. I will sure post the results when i do. Thank you for all.</p>

[jay_de_fehr]

<p>I look forward to your posts. As long as you have the DEA and ascorbic acid, you might try the catechol formula above, too. Have fun!</p>

[mike_barger]

<p>Jay<br>

<br /> I've just gone through Fred Picker's film speed test, development test, and the proper proof test.<br>

I use HP5 in 4x5, Dektol 1:2 (two minutes), and 510 Pyro 1:100 (70 degrees). I develop in an old Jobo 4323 drum with the (I think) 2120 reels. This rolls on a unicolor base with the auto forward reverse. Paper is MCP 310. The new Adox RC paper.<br>

The tests led to a rating of 200 for the HP5 (same for HC110) and a development time of 17 minutes. Fred's test for time of development is based on printing a zone VIII negative for the minimum time to produce max back on the paper. <br>

I know the is a lot longer than you are using for continuous agitation. As a further test, I followed up with a different batch of 510 pyro from Artcraft, but the test results are the same.<br>

Not complaining, I love the results. I was just wondering if anyone else was using a longer development time?</p>

<p>Mike</p>